Empires X.1 Rules Revision

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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Tue May 06, 2014 9:44 pm

Here is the unit design list as it stands at the moment.

Units
Every side can produce a number of units. You choose the fluff and builds for each type of unit when you build the first barracks for that kind.
A list of units your cities can pop follows. Unit stats are in the form of:
Hits/Combat/Defence/Move
Each units has a number of customization points and an upkeep per turn. During creation every unit gets a number of points you can use to customize your units.
● Increase Hits by 1 for every point spent (all units must have at least 1 Hit)
● Increase Move or Combat stats by 1 for every point spent (all units must have at least 1 Combat, and 6 Move).
● Increase Defence for the cost of the value of the next level. To increase from Def 1 to Def 2 costs 2 points. To increase from Def 2 to Def 3 costs 3 points. So, to increase from Def 1 to Def 6 costs 20 points. Def value may not exceed 6. (all units must have at least 1 Def)
● Units can purchase specials from the appropriate list
● A unit with>15 hits is always “heavy”, but doesn’t gain additional benefit from it (it cannot ride on Mounts)

Unit Templates
Basic Units – One Barracks to Pop One Unit
Unit A: Infantry – 20 points to spend (up to one simple special) (20S)
Unit B: Infantry – 25 points to spend (up to two simple specials) (25S)

Advanced Units – Two Barracks to Pop One Unit
Unit C: Knight – 40 points to spend (up to three simple or complex specials) (60s)
Unit D: Beast – 30 points (up to three simple or complex specials) (40s)
Unit E: Beast – 35 points (up to three simple or complex specials) (50s)
Ship of War - 40 points (no specials allowed) (40s) A ship can hold an amount of light units equal to its hits & heavy units equal to half its hits. Ships are only water capable, and can only be popped in water adjacent Cities.

Rare Units - Three Barracks Turns to Pop 1 Unit:
Unit F: – 50 points (up to five simple or complex specials) (80s)

Very Rare Units - Five Barracks Turns to Pop 1 Unit:
Unit G: – 80 points (up to seven specials) (150s)

Specials
There are 3 kinds of specials, simple, complex, and Advanced.

Simple Simples
Common – can be taken any number of times per side
Flight - (2) Allows the unit to pass through terrain without getting movement penalties, and attack cities from the Air zone, bypassing walls.
Ranged - (x) Allows the unit to make ranged attacks making them able to perform “first fire” when defending a hex. Cost 1 for A or B units (cannot be taken by both A & B), Cost 2 for C, D, & E units, and cost 3 for F & G units.
Siege - (2) Allows the unit to attack walls (or Towers if Flying, or Dungeons if burrowing).

Simple Simples
Exclusive – cannot be taken more than twice per side
Toxin - (2) Combat score +4.
Healer - (2) The unit has defence stat +1
Frightening - (2) Combat Score +3
Stealth - (3) If the unit ends turn with half or more move, it becomes veiled (does not appear on the main map) until it attacks or leaves the hex.
Mount (2) - Allows up to 1+(hits/10) (rounded down) light units to mount this unit (Mounts may not Mount Mounts).
Simple Speed Boost (2) – The unit gains +4 to Move.
Extra Tough (4) – the unit has +8 hits.
Burrowing (2) – The unit may burrow to attack a City from below ground, or burrow if it ends turn with half or more move remaining – it gets a free attack against any enemy unit entering the hex. Burrowing mounts may carry their passengers underground.

Complex
Exclusive – cannot be taken more than twice per side
Complex Speed Boost (3) - The unit gains +6 to Move.
Gust (3) – once per battle, a target stack cannot engage (or be engaged) in combat. A stack cannot be affected by Gust more than once per battle.
Dance-fighting (3) – The unit has +6 to Combat
Packmind (4) - Units with this special gain bonus combat equal to half the number of Packmind units in the stack. Units must all be of the same type to benefit.
Sour Spit (4) – In combat, one target unit suffers -2 to defence for the rest of the turn.
Meatshield (4) - Units riding this unit use its defence score in place of their own (Prerequisite: Mount)
Battlecrap (4) - CRAP! Flying units gain +8 to combat (Prerequisite: Flying)
Footbiter (4) – Burrowing units gain +8 to combat (Prerequisite: Burrowing)
Earthshaker (4) – Non-Flying units gain +6 to combat.
Heavy (5) - Unit gains +5 hits, +3 Combat, Defence +1 and cannot ride Mounts (Heavy Units cannot be promoted to Heavy).

Advanced Class Specials
Exclusive – cannot be taken more than twice per side
Advanced Speed Boost (6) The unit gains +16 to Move.
Breath weapons (Choose one)
Fire - (10) Breathe a stream of fiery doom over your enemies. The unit gets +16 combat.
Lightning - (8) Breathe a line of lightning. The unit gets +12 combat.
Sonic - (6) Blast your enemy with soundwaves. +10 combat.
Acid - (4) Target stack defence -2 for one phase.
Bubble - (4) one target unit is immobilized until the start of its next turn.
Smoke - (2) Target stack cannot engage (or be engaged) in combat for one phase.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Tue May 06, 2014 9:47 pm

SeraphRedux wrote:
LTDave wrote:From HerbieRai:
Can burrowers and fliers choose not to attack through the secondary zone and attack on ground anyway?

Good question. I say "no".


I actually have a minor question about that. Does this mean that you 'have' to have all of your units attacking from the same venue? Aka, not allowed to mix burrowing units with normal units, or normal units with flying units? I ask because I wonder, does this essentially mean I'm not allowed to stack my warlord with my wolves?


This is a good point, and I might rethink it again.

How about this: Burrowing and Flying units may choose to attack a city on the ground if a Character is present - otherwise they defaul to their natural abilities.
Burrowing Mounts can carry passengers underground.

If a player wants to attack Air/Ground/Underzone all in the same combat with different stacks, etc, the defender will have to allocate stacks to protect those different zones.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Tue May 06, 2014 9:56 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:Personally I prefer variety. Most of the sides we've seen have had pretty varied special units.

Twolls, Dwagons and Spidews for GK
Unikegataurs, Sourmanders and Gumps for Jetstone
Goyles, Doombats and the Birds for Transylvito
Etc.


I love the idea of having new specials that have unique effects for variety. We just need to come up with different specials that have more unique effects. While the twice per side thing is a great curb on the 'every unit has the same special' trend, I think the biggest barrier right now to having extremely unique units is our lack of specials that do something other than "add x points to y stat". This might be more our job as players than Dave's job, though.

Not to say that we can't have unique stuff in the current system. Dave did a very good job working this out so different units are possible and healthy, while making the system really basic and playable.

LTDave wrote:*snip*
How about this: Burrowing and Flying units may choose to attack a city on the ground if a Character is present - otherwise they defaul to their natural abilities.
Burrowing Mounts can carry passengers underground.

If a player wants to attack Air/Ground/Underzone all in the same combat with different stacks, etc, the defender will have to allocate stacks to protect those different zones.*snip*


Love it, works for me.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Deo » Tue May 06, 2014 9:59 pm

Packmind (4) - Units with this special gain bonus combat equal to half the number of Packmind units in the stack. Units must all be of the same type to benefit.

-

The max units in a stack in 16, meaning only with a full stack can a +8 be reached,. Two other abilities with the same cost already provide the same bonus though are limited by type but they get the full bonus all the time.

I kind of think that Packmind should be restricted to beasts D and up, and *maybe* have its cost reduced to 3 as getting a full stack for the same bonus as similar abilities is a bit of a requirement and only if all the units are also packmind.

Thoughts?


I also would not mind a Special that modified the loads that mount is capable of, like Transport. I have made a couple attempts to try to make mounts that can carry multiple people but that is fairly difficult.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Tue May 06, 2014 10:05 pm

Deo wrote:The max units in a stack in 16, meaning only with a full stack can a +8 be reached,. Two other abilities with the same cost already provide the same bonus though are limited by type but they get the full bonus all the time.

I kind of think that Packmind should be restricted to beasts D and up, and *maybe* have its cost reduced to 3 as getting a full stack for the same bonus as similar abilities is a bit of a requirement and only if all the units are also packmind.

Thoughts?


Packmind is already restricted from the infantry because it's a Complex special, so that part isn't necessary. Although I agree with the sentiment that it should get a buff, given it's extreme specificity.

As for a transport special, how about
Ferry System (3)
Pre requisites: Meat Shield, Mount
The formula for the Mount Capacity for this unit is now 3+(hits/5) instead of 1+(hits/10) while outside of combat.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Tue May 06, 2014 10:42 pm

Packmind can give up to +8 combat per UNIT. I think that's pretty rockin' for 4 points.

I like the ferry idea. More of the same.

Variety is nice, but it has to be simple variety, if that makes any sense (ie, effects the basic four stats, and does so consistently - please nothing that says "increase stat by 3, unless it is a tuesday, when it is 5, but only if walking next to an elephant").

We could have five combat specials, all for a different price, that increase the stat by 5 different amounts - but that's basically the same thing over again.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Tue May 06, 2014 10:46 pm

LTDave wrote:Packmind can give up to +8 combat per UNIT. I think that's pretty rockin' for 4 points.

Doesn't footbiter give +8 combat per unit too? Cause they all have a copy of the special, so it'd be the same?

LTDave wrote:Variety is nice, but it has to be simple variety, if that makes any sense (ie, effects the basic four stats, and does so consistently - please nothing that says "increase stat by 3, unless it is a tuesday, when it is 5, but only if walking next to an elephant").

Thus the challenge, but yeah I agree. At most one conditional or variable if any on a single special (IE Packmind varies with units in stack).


I don't know why I feel so talkative all of a sudden tonight. Certainly fun though.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Tue May 06, 2014 10:52 pm

Good point. How about to preserve packmind:

Battlecrap (4) - CRAP! Flying units gain +7 to combat (Prerequisite: Flying)
Footbiter (4) – Burrowing units gain +7 to combat (Prerequisite: Burrowing)
Earthshaker (4) – Heavy units gain +7 to combat (Prerequisite: Heavy)


SeraphRedux wrote:I don't know why I feel so talkative all of a sudden tonight. Certainly fun though.


Yes, for the silent power behind the ice-throne you are certainly vocal all of the sudden...
Last edited by LTDave on Tue May 06, 2014 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Tue May 06, 2014 10:59 pm

How about?

Things like this I can build into the spreadsheet, so I don't have to think about them:

Berserker - cost (2) when attacking, unit gains +2 combat for every point the average defence of its stack is below 6 (may not take ranged)

Well Drilled - cost (2) if in a stack of 8 (no more, no less) unit gains +5 combat




Or some things that are simple to do after the battle:

Fodder - cost (2) after casualties are calculated, these units will be eliminated first.

Lucky sod - cost (2) after casualties are calculated, these units will be eliminated last.



Or things that rely on the creator of the unit making some choices:

Duck'n'dodge - cost (2) defence +1 if hits are less than 8.

Big'n'thick - cost (5) hits +12, but defence cannot exceed 3.
Last edited by LTDave on Tue May 06, 2014 11:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Tue May 06, 2014 11:06 pm

LTDave wrote:Good point. How about to preserve packmind:

Battlecrap (4) - CRAP! Flying units gain +6 to combat (Prerequisite: Flying)
Footbiter (4) – Burrowing units gain +6 to combat (Prerequisite: Burrowing)
Earthshaker (4) – Heavy units gain +6 to combat (Prerequisite: Heavy)


I adore the concept of Earthshaker being tied to Heavy units and think it fits perfectly. Though I think these should be (4) for +7, because in the form you listed they're pricier Toxins, and strictly inferior to Dance Fighting.

As a note, I'll try to theorycraft something simple yet effective to have frightening do. I understand and agree with why you changed it off of being a +1 defense cause it was literally a copy of Healer, but now it's literally a copy of Toxin (but less effective).


LTDave wrote:Yes, for the silent power behind the ice-throne you are certainly vocal all of the sudden...


I like designing things a whole lot, always gets me thinking and engaged and talking. Though I'm sure GJC has some neat ideas too, once he gets back, he does a lot of the stuff with the side.



LTDave wrote:How about?

Berserker - cost (2) when attacking, unit gains +2 combat for every point the average defence of the stack is below 6 (may not take ranged)

(see - things like this I can build into the spreadsheet, so if becomes a no-brainer on my part)


Three questions,
1. How does rounding work? Say, if the stack has 4.2 defense, would that be +2 or +4?
2. Defense of the stack of the Berserker, or the enemy stack she's hitting? I'm assuming the zerker's stack, but I'm not sure.
3. If you're affected by something like Sour Spit, would it alter the combat score? Or does it depend purely on the unmodified defense score?

I love the idea though. Gives people an actual reason to attempt a low defense stack.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Tue May 06, 2014 11:20 pm

Cool. Suggestions edited in. And some more.

On the rounding, it would work out as exact (so if def is 1.8 points less than 6, each unit would get +3.6 combat)

Sour spit would not add extra attacks to Beserker.

I'm on a lunch-break now, so I'm thinking a bit (as opposed to responding between clients).
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue May 06, 2014 11:26 pm

The 4 orders per turn thing is a little restrictive. I think stacks with Warlords (not Courtiers) should be able to move independently.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Tue May 06, 2014 11:30 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:The 4 orders per turn thing is a little restrictive. I think stacks with Warlords (not Courtiers) should be able to move independently.


It becomes 5 orders with just one member of court.

I want to keep this limit because I don't want players sending dozens of units dozens of places. For game play and GM sanity, there needs to be some kind of limit (and I'm all for arbitrary limits).
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Tue May 06, 2014 11:34 pm

Cool, let's see. Also, are these specials Simple Simple? Or are they Complex Specials?

LTDave wrote:Berserker - cost (2) when attacking, unit gains +2 combat for every point the average defence of its stack is below 6 (may not take ranged)

6: +0
5: +2
4: +4
3: +6
2: +8
1: +10
An approximation, at least.

LTDave wrote:Well Drilled - cost (2) if in a stack of 8 (no more, no less) unit gains +5 combat

Interesting idea, actually enforces the idea of the 8 stack. It's the same thing as Dance fighting but with a requirement, so I feel like it should be +6 Combat rather than +5, similar to how packmind has +8 for (4).

I kinda like Dance Fighting as the basic 'add points' special to yardstick a lot of the other ideas off of, helps with mentally cataloging the math.


LTDave wrote:Fodder - cost (2) after casualties are calculated, these units will be eliminated first.

Lucky sod - cost (2) after casualties are calculated, these units will be eliminated last.


No idea on the balance of these, but I imagine this can be utilized to some degree. I assume that this means in your system no units actually die until after combat is over, and the stack or hex only loses a % of it's combat during it, then afterwards the losses are calculated.


LTDave wrote:Duck'n'dodge - cost (2) defence +1 if hits are less than 8.

Big'n'thick - cost (5) hits +12, but defence cannot exceed 3.


I like the idea of specials that give larger than standard bonuses. Though Duck'n'dodge should be 1 point cost, because Healer already exists as a 2 point +1 defense special. I don't think duck-n-dodge'll be that abusable.

Big'n'thick is great for mounts, albeit making them not good for meat shielding, or that great of high armored combat mounts. I assume that if a 3 defense unit with this ability purchases heavy, it'll stay at 3 defense, the same way a 6 defense unit that purchases heavy will stay at 6 defense.



On the orders thing, I agree with Dave that there needing to be some kind of limitation. You can expand the orders though with the court, so it's not a hard limit. Also if Dave changes it to be Characters, that one member of the court can be your Ruler.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby GWvsJohn » Wed May 07, 2014 12:09 am

How does siege work?
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Wed May 07, 2014 12:10 am

Siege is in the rules doc, page 10.

Siege
Units with the siege special may direct their attacks against the walls (towers for flyers, dungeons for burrowers). For each 100 combat of siege attacks so directed, a level of defences is knocked down. To knock a level 3 wall to a level 0 wall would take 300 combat.



Here's what I'm thinking now:

Simple - Exclusive

Berserker (3) when attacking, unit gains +2 combat for every point the average defence of its stack is below 6 (may not be ranged)
Well Drilled (2) if in a stack of 8 (no more, no less) unit gains +5 combat
Fodder (2) – after casualties are calculated, these units will be eliminated first.
Lucky (2) – after casualties are calculated, these units will be eliminated last.
Duck'n'dodge (1) – defence +1 if hits are less than 6.
Big Fellow (6) – hits +18, but defence cannot exceed 3.
Chlorophyllic (8) – unit maintenance reduced by 30%
Simple Speed Boost (2) – The unit gains +6 to Move.

Complex - Exclusive
Battle Wagon (4) The formula for the Mount Capacity for this unit is now 3+(hits/5). Pre-requisites: Mount, Heavy.
Meatshield (4) – Hits +12 (Prerequisite: Mount)
Complex Speed Boost (3) - The unit gains +9 to Move.

I realised Meatshield as it stood was in violation of my "brain dead GM" rule, so I've altered it.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby BrimStone » Wed May 07, 2014 12:18 am

LTDave - I assume that you are going to update the main document once done with all changes so we can revise and send you the unit designs again?

It looks like Big Fellow should have a prerequisite of Heavy since you are going to trigger Heavy by taking it, thoughts?
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Wed May 07, 2014 12:32 am

No - because Heavy is a complex, and big fellow is a simple.

I just want a big fat unit that is designed to get smacked around a lot.

(and yes, I will update the rules doc when I think we're close to done. Probably another 24 hours on that)

Lunch break over - back to work!
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Silversought » Wed May 07, 2014 12:40 am

Brimstone; units can go "heavy" without taking the Heavy special. It's just a drawback at that point. Keeps Big Fellow sort of balanced.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Wed May 07, 2014 12:41 am

Here's the list now:

Specials
There are 3 kinds of specials, simple, complex, and Advanced.

Simple Specials – Common – can be taken any number of times per side
Flight - (2) Allows the unit to pass through terrain without getting movement penalties, and attack cities from the Air zone, bypassing walls.
Ranged - (x) Allows the unit to make ranged attacks making them able to perform “first fire” when defending a hex. Cost 1 for A or B units (cannot be taken by both A & B), cost 2 for C, D, & E units, and cost 3 for F & G units.
Siege - (2) Allows the unit to attack walls (or Towers if Flying, or Dungeons if burrowing).

Simple Specials - Exclusive – cannot be taken more than twice per side
Toxic - (2) Combat score +4
Healer - (2) The unit has defence stat +1
Frightening - (2) Combat +3
Stealth - (3) If the unit ends turn with half or more move, it becomes veiled (does not appear on the main map) until it attacks or leaves the hex.
Mount (2) - Allows up to 1+(hits/10) (rounded down) light units to mount this unit (Mounts may not Mount Mounts).
Simple Speed Boost (2) – The unit gains +6 to Move.
Extra Tough (4) – the unit has +8 hits.
Burrowing (2) – The unit may burrow to attack a City from below ground, or burrow if it ends turn with half or more move remaining – it gets a free attack against any enemy unit entering the hex. Burrowing mounts may carry their passengers underground.
Berserker (3) when attacking, unit gains +2 combat for every point the average defence of its stack is below 6 (may not be ranged)
Well Drilled (2) if in a stack of 8 (no more, no less) unit gains +5 combat
Fodder (2) – after casualties are calculated, these units will be eliminated first.
Lucky (2) – after casualties are calculated, these units will be eliminated last.
Duck'n'dodge (1) – defence +1 if hits are less than 6.
Big Fellow (6) – hits +18, but defence cannot exceed 3.
Chlorophyllic (8) – unit maintenance reduced by 30%


Complex - Exclusive – cannot be taken more than twice per side
Gust (3) – once per battle, a target stack cannot engage (or be engaged) in combat. A stack cannot be affected by Gust more than once per battle.
Dance-fighting (3) – The unit has +6 to Combat
Packmind (3) - Units with this special gain bonus combat equal to half the number of Packmind units in the stack. Units must all be of the same type to benefit.
Sour Spit (4) – In combat, one target unit suffers -2 to defence for the rest of the turn.
Battlecrap (4) - CRAP! Flying units gain +7 to combat (Prerequisite: Flying)
Footbiter (4) – Burrowing units gain +7 to combat (Prerequisite: Burrowing)
Earthshaker (4) – Heavy units gain +7 to combat.
Heavy (5) - Unit gains +5 hits, +3 Combat, Defence +1 and cannot ride Mounts (Heavy Units cannot be promoted to Heavy).
Battle Wagon (4) The formula for the Mount Capacity for this unit is now 3+(hits/5). Pre-requisites: Mount, Heavy.
Meatshield (4) – Hits +12 (Prerequisite: Mount)
Complex Speed Boost (3) - The unit gains +9 to Move.


Advanced Class Specials
Exclusive – cannot be taken more than twice per side
Advanced Speed Boost (6) The unit gains +16 to Move.
Breath weapons (Choose one)
Fire - (10) Breathe a stream of fiery doom over your enemies. The unit gets +16 combat.
Lightning - (8) Breathe a line of lightning. The unit gets +12 combat.
Sonic - (6) Blast your enemy with soundwaves. +10 combat.
Acid - (4) Target stack defence -2 for one phase.
Bubble - (4) one target unit is immobilized until the start of its next turn.
Smoke - (2) Target stack cannot engage (or be engaged) in combat for one phase.
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