Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:55 pm

Hmm, might be that she recognized the setting of the sun as the end of the turn with her father ending turn, as opposed to ending turn because the sun set.

And you're right, if a turn is strictly limited to 16 hours, then yeah, it wouldn't do anything, but it would prove that limit. If time is unlimited, then it also wouldn't do anything except give Parson a sore throat. If my theory is correct, then it could be a hack. So yeah, there are more than two theories floating around here. I suppose they are that the theories could be summed up as
  • There is a time limit to every turn, so time is very important
  • There is no rigid time limit, but night eventually comes because of time
  • Time is entirely irrelevant to anything and has no meaning
The middle one, mine, causes some potential problems, exploits, and loopholes, which as much as anything else suggest to me that it is the one being used so that Parson can one day attempt to exploit it.

The limited time theory has the problem of from what perspective does the time limit exist? Because we know relativity exists very strongly in Erfworld, it could (in fact, has to) last longer than 16 hours from some perspectives.

Despite that though, you could be right, with the sun rushing forward at turn's end to reach night, but then days wouldn't be 24 hours all the time because they'd be too short, which honestly leads to the exact same problem I have with the unlimited time theory, which is that the 24 hour/day thing doesn't work. Sizemore may have been talking in generalities when explaining things to Parson, but if you make that exception, you have to make the same one for unlimited time, in which case it is just as valid.

Not sure why you wouldn't bet huge qualtoos against my theory if you're sure there is evidence that already shows it is incorrect.

@Lipkin - Okay, this is really hard to explain, but I'll give it a try.
You are in Hex A with unit X and Y. You all hang out for 8 hours until it is noon. Then unit X and Y need to go scouting. Unit X goes out to 5 different hexes and scouts each for an hour before eventually returning to you to give you a report. It's only been an hour since he left for you though, so he returns at 1 pm, with the sun in the 1 pm position. Unit Y goes in the opposite direction and also scouts 5 hexes for an hour each, but doesn't return. In her final hex, it is 5 pm by the time she is done scouting. She sets up camp since she is out of move and begins trying to make her rations more edible. You meanwhile do the same with unit X in the original square because you have to wait until next turn for unit Y to get back. Time passes for you and her at different rates, so you both end up at 8 pm at the same 'time' when turn ends and it is night in all hexes. Night, dawn, and dusk are the only times that time seems to be synced between all hexes. No, you may have noticed the oddity. You experienced 16 hours of daylight. Unit Y experienced 16 hours of daylight. Unit X however experienced 21 hours of daylight. But, this only happened because he rejoined you in a hex that had its time 'locked' because you were in it. Even though the unit experienced extra hours, the unit wouldn't exactly say the day lasted longer, because he knew that he returned to a hex with the locked time. I suppose this might be seen as a departure from the listed '24 hours in a day' rule as the other things, but I personally find it to be a result of Erfworlders taking relativity for granted, as opposed to us Stupidworlders who generally have trouble grasping it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:52 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Hmm, might be that she recognized the setting of the sun as the end of the turn with her father ending turn, as opposed to ending turn because the sun set.
It's possible, but I can't imagine any reason why her father would do that. How would he know that Jillian wasn't in the middle of something?

The limited time theory is very appealing because it avoids any complexity and strangeness. One side's turn is from sunrise the noon, then the other side gets to move from noon to sunset. That Erfworld would be nicely ordered, with no time weirdness other than relativity. Of course, if ending your turn early actually causes the sun to move, that's extra time weirdness.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:If time is unlimited, then it also wouldn't do anything except give Parson a sore throat.
It would also give the sun major problems because it moves across the sky minute-by-minute and it has to go somewhere, but it can't set.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:The middle one, mine, causes some potential problems, exploits, and loopholes, which as much as anything else suggest to me that it is the one being used so that Parson can one day attempt to exploit it.
You mean like the exploit of choosing not to end your turn until sunset, thereby denying any side with a later turn than yours the ability to move? That exploit would make the side with the earliest turn the invincible ruler of Erfworld.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:The limited time theory has the problem of from what perspective does the time limit exist? Because we know relativity exists very strongly in Erfworld, it could (in fact, has to) last longer than 16 hours from some perspectives.
And a day can last longer than 24 hours for a moving unit. When you send out a scout it may take only minutes to return from your perspective, but for the scout hours might pass (we don't know the exact strength of relativity), and if the scout spends too much time looking around then the scout might run into the end of your turn and be forced to stop even though the turn won't end for hours from your perspective. I see no problem with that. I expect Erfworlders never let it happen in practice; they always seem to run out of move before they run out of time.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Despite that though, you could be right, with the sun rushing forward at turn's end to reach night, but then days wouldn't be 24 hours all the time because they'd be too short, which honestly leads to the exact same problem I have with the unlimited time theory, which is that the 24 hour/day thing doesn't work. Sizemore may have been talking in generalities when explaining things to Parson, but if you make that exception, you have to make the same one for unlimited time, in which case it is just as valid.
Sizemore doesn't always explain things perfectly to Parson because Sizemore thinks some things are obvious even though a Stupidworlder wouldn't know them. For example, if we have it right that ending your turn early causes the sun to jump across the sky, then Sizemore probably thinks that it's obvious that ending the turn early would cause the day to be shorter than 24 hours. He'd probably say that of course he was talking about days where the turn isn't ended early, or he might say that the day still has 24 hours, but ending the turn early allows you to throw away hours you don't care to use. But if unlimited time were true, then when would days ever be exactly 24 hours? It would seem as though the length of a day were constantly varying based on what people want to do in their day, but that can't be right because Sizemore must have meant something when he said a day was 24 hours. He couldn't be completely wrong.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Not sure why you wouldn't bet huge qualtoos against my theory if you're sure there is evidence that already shows it is incorrect.
It's no good making a bet when the outcome of the bet is determined by evidence that we already have. If people disagree about the meaning of the existing evidence then all you have is a debate and people might never agree on who should get the quatloos.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:I suppose this might be seen as a departure from the listed '24 hours in a day' rule as the other things, but I personally find it to be a result of Erfworlders taking relativity for granted, as opposed to us Stupidworlders who generally have trouble grasping it.
The rule was never "24 hours in a day." The rule is 24 hours in a day in a single hex. The Summer Update made it clear that scouting and returning causes units to have more hours in their days, and by implication being observed by units from unallied sides while marching would also give your day more hours. 24 hours only applies if you sit and wait all day in one hex, or move without being observed.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Azukar » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:40 pm

Getting away from this talk about the nature of Erfworld time, I think I've noticed another problem with Olive's testimony (or possibly the story's continuity).

Olive said that Charlie was fond of the Hero Buds. But in Episode 55, Wanda says that Maxwell and Olive made the Hero Buds together (Maxwell being *Haffaton's* Thinkamancer). Not to mention, Wanda kind-of implies that she was around when Maxwell and Olive made the Hero Buds to start with. This doesn't add up if Olive says that the Efbaum/Haffaton war, the creation of the Hero Buds, and Charlie were all before Wanda's time.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:20 am

Azukar wrote:Olive said that Charlie was fond of the Hero Buds. But in Episode 55, Wanda says that Maxwell and Olive made the Hero Buds together (Maxwell being *Haffaton's* Thinkamancer).
Are you saying that Maxwell was popped in Haffaton or at least not captured from el-Efbaum? Does anyone remember where that was revealed?

Azukar wrote:Not to mention, Wanda kind-of implies that she was around when Maxwell and Olive made the Hero Buds to start with.
I don't see that in Episode 55. Where did Wanda imply she was around for the creation of the hero buds?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Azukar » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:05 am

Lilwik wrote: snip


Maxwell was Haffaton's Thinkamancer. Charlie was never a Haffaton unit - he was Efbaum's Ruler. Olive would not have had contact with Maxwell until after the whole coup, by which point Charlie was long gone.

Also, the inference that Wanda was around at the time is vague, but if you remember that Wanda linked up with Maxwell (and the other casters) at various times, then the two definitely had contact. And Olive is supposed to have been a Haffaton unit for far longer than Wanda.

I could just be confused. But mainly it doesn't make sense for Charlie to have been exposed to the Hero Buds.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:10 am

Haffaton and El-Efbaum were strong allies, to the point that they linked their casters to make the summon perfect warlord spell that brought Judy to Erfworld. I don't see any reason that they wouldn't have allowed other thinkamancy links, especially as it was stated that Charlie encouraged it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:27 am

Azukar wrote:Maxwell was Haffaton's Thinkamancer.
And Wanda was Haffaton's Croakamancer. Does that mean that Wanda never made uncroaked for Goodminton? No. Why should Maxwell being Haffaton's Thinkamancer mean that Maxwell never made hero buds for el-Efbaum?

Azukar wrote:I could just be confused. But mainly it doesn't make sense for Charlie to have been exposed to the Hero Buds.
I don't know if you are confused, but your explanations for why Charlie couldn't have been exposed to hero buds don't seem to be hitting the nail on the head. I have no doubt that Olive is capable of lying, but I'm curious to see the evidence that she's lying about this. Is she building up a justification for the existence of the hero buds by trying to shift the blame for them onto Charlie?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Azukar » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:18 am

Hmm. I've been re-reading the Inner Peace story, and I think it depends on the interpretation of something Wanda says here:

[quote]Banhammer frowned, looking uncertain of what to say. He looked at a few of the jurors, and even glanced Jillian’s way. Then he looked at Olive for a moment, before returning his gaze to Wanda. “You said she was originally a unit of el-Efbaum, correct?”
“Correct, Your Wisdom.”
“So she created this garden here, under The Wizard?”
“Yes,” said Wanda. “Although most of what makes it evil, she created later.”[/quote

"Most of what makes it evil". I guess it depends on whether the Hero Buds were created before or after The Wizard. So it's possible this is a mistake, or it could be Olive lying. Why she would lie about that, I don't know. Guess we'll see with the next update or so.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:03 pm

Azukar wrote:Hmm. I've been re-reading the Inner Peace story, and I think it depends on the interpretation of something Wanda says here:

Banhammer frowned, looking uncertain of what to say. He looked at a few of the jurors, and even glanced Jillian’s way. Then he looked at Olive for a moment, before returning his gaze to Wanda. “You said she was originally a unit of el-Efbaum, correct?”
“Correct, Your Wisdom.”
“So she created this garden here, under The Wizard?”
“Yes,” said Wanda. “Although most of what makes it evil, she created later.”


"Most of what makes it evil". I guess it depends on whether the Hero Buds were created before or after The Wizard. So it's possible this is a mistake, or it could be Olive lying. Why she would lie about that, I don't know. Guess we'll see with the next update or so.

Well, the Wizard was addicted to Hero buds, so there is apparently alot more stuff that is even more evil that we haven't seen in the garden (perhaps poison?).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:10 pm

Azukar wrote:"Most of what makes it evil". I guess it depends on whether the Hero Buds were created before or after The Wizard.
That's well spotted. Assuming that Olive is telling the truth, it implies that either the Olive Garden contains something more evil than the hero buds, which seems unlikely because it looked like mostly an enormous field of hero buds, or else Olive increased the potency of the hero buds after Charlie left. It could also be that the Olive Garden originally had many kinds of flowers from Olive's many experiments, but after Charlie abandoned the city Olive made the garden evil by replacing all of its other flowers with hero buds, thus eliminating everything good about the garden.

Edit: See Book 0, Episode 50 for a description of the Olive Garden. It's not entirely hero buds, but that seems to be the vast majority of it. Perhaps Olive made the place much more evil by later expanding the number of hero buds to fill the entire field that Jillian finds.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby ftl » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:09 pm

Perhaps the hero buds were just made more addictive/potent. If when they started, they were just trippy and not horribly addictive, then that wouldn't have been very evil at all.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby BakaGrappler » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:06 am

So, I personally think the Terrible Price that Charlie paid for his Carniemancy life saving act is that he has to stay in a life support hot-tub at all times.

And I've been thinking about the Carniemancy that Jojo performed on Sylvia. Sylvia's last name is Lazarus... what if that name holds truer than just a joke about her coming back to life from the Volcano, and Jojo's resuscitation? What if the Carnymancy spell was not, "I bring you back from the dead," but was "I re-pop you as a new unit, bought and paid for, with your old level and memories preserved"? Preventing Sylvia from going to the Titans, and just having her re-popped every time! And perhaps a little extra juice to protect her from attacks that are not Fire in nature, because Sylvia seems to have DIAF 3 times now.

But if the game has been rigged with extra continues for Sylvia, as long as the price is paid for producing a unit of her type, that would explain why the sudden promotion to Warlord was called for in Uniroyal, since a Warlord that can be re-popped after death at level 4, or 6, or whatever when normal Warlords are popped at level 1 would be invaluable! .......So Sylvia MAY just return to the story, as a living GK warlord, even, since Sylvia died as a GK unit this time.

It was never explicitly said what the Carnymancy spell was..... but if Charlie can forcefully end another side's turn, then a Carnie-Link with Jojo may have permanently broken the laws of death on a single unit.

AND it gives possible future ramifications with Sylvia and Jojo in the future.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lipkin » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:43 am

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:@Lipkin - Okay, this is really hard to explain, but I'll give it a try.
You are in Hex A with unit X and Y. You all hang out for 8 hours until it is noon. Then unit X and Y need to go scouting. Unit X goes out to 5 different hexes and scouts each for an hour before eventually returning to you to give you a report. It's only been an hour since he left for you though, so he returns at 1 pm, with the sun in the 1 pm position. Unit Y goes in the opposite direction and also scouts 5 hexes for an hour each, but doesn't return. In her final hex, it is 5 pm by the time she is done scouting. She sets up camp since she is out of move and begins trying to make her rations more edible. You meanwhile do the same with unit X in the original square because you have to wait until next turn for unit Y to get back. Time passes for you and her at different rates, so you both end up at 8 pm at the same 'time' when turn ends and it is night in all hexes. Night, dawn, and dusk are the only times that time seems to be synced between all hexes. No, you may have noticed the oddity. You experienced 16 hours of daylight. Unit Y experienced 16 hours of daylight. Unit X however experienced 21 hours of daylight. But, this only happened because he rejoined you in a hex that had its time 'locked' because you were in it. Even though the unit experienced extra hours, the unit wouldn't exactly say the day lasted longer, because he knew that he returned to a hex with the locked time. I suppose this might be seen as a departure from the listed '24 hours in a day' rule as the other things, but I personally find it to be a result of Erfworlders taking relativity for granted, as opposed to us Stupidworlders who generally have trouble grasping it.

I'm saying that a day has nothing to do with the sun. A day is 24 hours, just like an hour is 60 minutes. There is never a day with more than 24 hours any more than there is an hour with more than 60 minutes. The sun sets when the last turn of the cycle ends, and whatever action a unit takes either takes less than the amount of time for the sun to travel across the sky, or the exact amount. You can't run out of time to do something, because if you don't have enough time, you aren't able to start it in the first place. Time isn't an issue, only how many actions something takes, and how many actions you can take a turn.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:04 am

Okay, so you're going with the last thing in my quote there, that they mean day as 24 hours and not a day/night cycle like we do. That would be a fairly reasonable explanation overall, and explain quite a few things. It would explain the time thing and allow for unlimited time in turns. The relativity thing for the scouts would be simple convenience for the ruler as opposed to being something strictly needed for Erf to function.

That may actually be the best (not to mention simplest) explanation of time, days, and turns. Perhaps the only oddity I can think of from the comic is I'm fairly sure characters have used the term 'tomorrow' to reference next turn, as opposed to next day. That said though, it could simply be a case of terminology. Tomorrow just plain means 'next turn' because 'next day' is virtually meaningless. Then again, so is hour.

Oh, and do we know: When Jillian was being tortured, and Wanda kept saying "For X days, life will suck." did turns actually pass? I seem to remember night which is distinctly linked to turns as opposed to days (if this theory is right), but did the number of turns and days always sync up?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby drachefly » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:35 am

0beron wrote:Huh interesting way of putting it, I like it. I'm not sure that's what's happening either though, because as I'm reading it Sizemore seems to imply the sun still moves at a predictable rate, which shouldn't be the case whenever "squeezing" occurs, right?


Nope. Sun movement and your perception of time move at the same rate. Staying in one balloon you can't see any difference. If you move from one hex to another (transferring at the same height), you may find more or less time left beneath you on your descent towards evening.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lipkin » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:57 am

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Okay, so you're going with the last thing in my quote there, that they mean day as 24 hours and not a day/night cycle like we do. That would be a fairly reasonable explanation overall, and explain quite a few things. It would explain the time thing and allow for unlimited time in turns. The relativity thing for the scouts would be simple convenience for the ruler as opposed to being something strictly needed for Erf to function.

That may actually be the best (not to mention simplest) explanation of time, days, and turns. Perhaps the only oddity I can think of from the comic is I'm fairly sure characters have used the term 'tomorrow' to reference next turn, as opposed to next day. That said though, it could simply be a case of terminology. Tomorrow just plain means 'next turn' because 'next day' is virtually meaningless. Then again, so is hour.

Oh, and do we know: When Jillian was being tortured, and Wanda kept saying "For X days, life will suck." did turns actually pass? I seem to remember night which is distinctly linked to turns as opposed to days (if this theory is right), but did the number of turns and days always sync up?

http://www.erfworld.com/2012/09/inner-p ... isode-042/

"Until I return, your life will suck."

She doesn't mention days, and in fact, the length of time varies for each torment. Though it does mention that for two days Jillian froze in the sunlight. If a day is merely 24 hours, than Jillian froze during 48 hours of sun.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:49 pm

Ah, well, there you go. I'm starting to like the 'day = 24 hours, not a daylight/night cycle' idea more and more. I suppose one possible oddity with it is that when Judy uses the term 'year' Jillian knows it means '365 turns' not '365 days', which if you're following that a day =/= a turn, then it should refer to days, which might all be contained in a single turn.

But I suppose none of this really gets back to the original spark of this discussion which was (I think) how much the court might actually have to worry about being attacked before figuring out what to do with Olive. I mean, we went over relativity alot, so it could take a few minutes for reinforcements to show up (and seemingly should since that's how it seems to work for scouts), or it could take a week. So it seems as though the court should have already been interrupted, or won't be until they're finished. Given how Erfworld works, the reinforcements will likely arrive just as they're about to render the verdict.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:28 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:I'm starting to like the 'day = 24 hours, not a daylight/night cycle' idea more and more.
That would require Rob Balder to be deliberately attempting to confuse us. Parson would have explained that to us in a klog of it were true, because it's one of the strangest things about Erfworld.
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:I suppose one possible oddity with it is that when Judy uses the term 'year' Jillian knows it means '365 turns' not '365 days', which if you're following that a day =/= a turn, then it should refer to days, which might all be contained in a single turn.
If you've already found proof that a there is one turn per day then why do you still doubt it? And of course the story is full of casual references to days which the characters would have no way to measure unless the sun is measuring them, since there are no clocks.

Book 0, Episode 42:
Wanda: “Until I return, you will be deaf and blind.”

For that torture, unlike all the others, Jillian somehow lost track of how many days she was tortured. If days aren't connected to the sun then we have to suppose that Jillian was counting one-thousand-ones during all the other tortures but couldn't be bothered to count that one time. It makes so much more sense if she was counting days simply by noticing when it gets dark.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lipkin » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:51 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Ah, well, there you go. I'm starting to like the 'day = 24 hours, not a daylight/night cycle' idea more and more. I suppose one possible oddity with it is that when Judy uses the term 'year' Jillian knows it means '365 turns' not '365 days', which if you're following that a day =/= a turn, then it should refer to days, which might all be contained in a single turn.

But I suppose none of this really gets back to the original spark of this discussion which was (I think) how much the court might actually have to worry about being attacked before figuring out what to do with Olive. I mean, we went over relativity alot, so it could take a few minutes for reinforcements to show up (and seemingly should since that's how it seems to work for scouts), or it could take a week. So it seems as though the court should have already been interrupted, or won't be until they're finished. Given how Erfworld works, the reinforcements will likely arrive just as they're about to render the verdict.

Remember that Judy is from Stupidworld. Charlie and Parson use the word 'kill" and people know they mean the word "Croak," despite never having heard the word before. Year could translate to 365 turns in Erf.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Aquillion » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:12 am

It's a bit odd, really, that the story hasn't answered the question of "what happens if you don't end your turn" yet. It seems like it'd be one of the first things that Parson asked.

But my money is on "your turn ends eventually no matter what you do", simply because there have doubtless been many rulers who faced the fact that they and everyone they loved were going to die soon after they ended their turn; if it were possible to just filibuster forever, time in Erfworld would have ceased to flow long long ago.

(One amusing but probably-wrong thought: What if the limit is starvation? Rations don't pop if the day doesn't end. But in that case, you could stockpile food, then literally starve the other side to death by refusing to end turn -- if you have more food than they do, they all starve to death and can't do anything about it. Seems unlikely to work that way, though. Too many fundamental aspects of the game break if you let people continue their turns forever. And again, it's too obvious of an exploit -- sieges are not hard to figure out.)

Hm. Uncroaked don't need to eat, and time is local to a battlespace. So: Sneak one uncroaked into an enemy battlespace. Once its turn begins, refuse to end it ever. All living units in that battlespace proceed to starve.
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