Book 2 - Page 113

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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:07 pm

Dinkum wrote:... and Loan Sharks.

Haha, awesome. Now I have images of land sharks that swim through the dirt and pop out to bite people, maybe being more effective against poor sides or units with high upkeep :P
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Roketter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:17 pm

Attacking charlie's portal would be a bad move. Parson doesn't have any way to know how many archons are guarding it, and considering it's the ONLY place Charlie needs to defend, I'd bet there are many, many archons in it. Without intel, you would have to asume any attack on the enemy's best fortress has a 50% chance of being a suicide attack.

Even if he caught most of the casters with a "night of the living decrypted" kind of move, using casters as shock troops would be incredibly wasteful and irresponsible when most certainly charlie would simply flee if treathened before they could get him.

The point being... you don't move your army of a hundred brainwashed zombie mages that nobody else on the world has ever had into a portal that may or may not go straight into the shooting line on the other side. You get them back into your own lines where they can be of use and make your own army unbeatable.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:21 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
Dinkum wrote:... and Loan Sharks.
Haha, awesome. Now I have images of land sharks that swim through the dirt and pop out to bite people, maybe being more effective against poor sides or units with high upkeep
Surely they would live in the water like any self-respecting shark, but it's actually quite interesting to think of what casters would do when sailing the seas.

You would want a Findamancer to navigate. A Turnamancer would create wind to fill your sails and cannons to fire at the enemy, while the cannon balls would come from a Dirtamancer. A Dollamancer would be critically important for building your ship and assisting your Healomancer in repairing any damage. The crow's nest would probably give a boost to any Lookamancer you station up there. And of course you need a Moneymancer so your shmuckers aren't restricted by the size of your purse; you'd want to convert most of your shmuckers into gems, carrying some with you but mostly burying them secretly on various islands for safe keeping. If your Moneymancer can also summon shark units, that would just be a bonus.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby LordAcme » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:43 pm

LordAcme wrote:
dholm wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:Hell, I'd put money on just one caster. Take your pick:

1. Joe Dirt Drops Rocks. Or digs a pit under them. Or turns the ground to mud and they can't move. Or. Or. Or.
2. Any one hippiemancer stops all aggression. Or or or
3. Any one turnamancer does who knows what. Or or or
4. Any one carnymancer does who knows what. Or or or.
5. Any one thinkamancer does who know what including zapping one or more leadership.

1. "Drops Rocks"? What rocks? The rocks he just blasted into pieces? That's not exactly a worry. As for digging a pit, what good is that gonna do?
That's assuming Sizemore doesn't just counter everything he does.
2. Janice is on Parson's side. There aren't any other Hippiemancers in the vicinity to our knowledge.
3. There is no Turnamancer in the vicinity to our knowledge.
4. If a single Carnymancer could defeat a stack of infantry, they'd be the most valuable casters in direct battle.
5. The Great Minds that Think Alike are on Parson's side.


Wow, huge assumptions going on. The Great Minds are NOT on Parson's side, they will not stack with him and kill everything at his command.

....

I never said they would start killing for Parson. I was saying they are not likely to fight AGAINST him. OneHugeTuck was saying a single caster could defeat Parson's force, which is ridiculous on the face of it.

LordAcme wrote:And "every caster in the Park can take a shot at him". Welcome to the city of Hoboken.

Uh, no, they can't. The vast majority of casters don't even know he's there!

LordAcme wrote:And lastly, all casters are NOT equal. MK has at least one Master-class in multiple disciplines (Isaac). I think it's safe to presume more.

Sure. So what? They haven't been shown on-screen. If there's a multiple discpline Master-class caster around the portal, I think we'd have heard of it by now.

LordAcme wrote:Parson has no offensive casting capability besides Hoboken.

Parson hasn't shown any casting capability aside from an ability to suddenly understand a scroll (which immediately left him when he was incapacitated). Whether he can cast Hoboken at all is up in the air.

LordAcme wrote:The MK has an unknown quantity and level, but it's safe to presume they have some, and not wise to presume it's weak. His archery force does offset that, but Lookamancy changes that. In fact, for every advantage other than melee and the 'pliers, the MK have a counter.

You said I was making "huge assumptions", yet you are the one insisting that all casters are somehow instantaneously available and willing to fight for the Magic Kingdom against Parson. If they aren't, the Magic Kingdom does not necessarily have any of those "counters" you speak of.

In the immediate situation, the only relevant casters are those in the immediate vicinity of Portal Park, and more directly, those around Gobwin Knob's portal.

If it becomes a battle, then the rest of the Magic Kingdom may unite and go against Parson, in which case the unknown potential of the casters becomes important. But so far, it isn't.[/quote][/quote]


Sorry, I don't quote points because I'm too lazy to work that hard for a disagreement on teh internet. Plus, I can't find the right quote to snip to fit the forum three-quote limit for posting. 1990s internet technology FTL.

One quick thing, I meant Parson's casters have Hoboken as offensive casting, not himself.

Re what Tuck said, yeah I would take that bet. But the point you're essentially carrying is "The MK forces are pwned if Parson wants it to be cuz casters are weak against melee".

To sum up my position, the instant Parson takes an offensive action, some casters will cast defensively, and some offensively, instantly. They are no fools and know what melee means for them, so a full-on lightshow is coming Parson's way. Even if it's just 1 shot each, it's gonna hurt - Isaac alone could do very bad things in 1 shot. And I sincerely bet there's more than 1 shot coming from some casters in the vicinity. The ones who can escape melee range will either flee to spread the alarm or go mobile artillery, hence the "Welcome to Hoboken" comment I made. And any casters walking by are going to join with the fleeing or the fighting.

The alarm will spread whether by Thinkamancy or running and shouting. All the MK WILL come in time, and not all that much time. Parson's Gotti is in a vise here, because he can't retreat without abandoning his new troops (highly unlikely), he can't kill ranged units at distance fast enough to win a battle of attrition through decryption ( a judgement call on my part, but I think an accurate one), and his other-side reinforcements are mainly melee, plus he can only replenish them as fast as he can step through the portal and throw their bodies for Decryption.

Point's kinda moot, because Janis will shut down the hex SO HARD if anything like that even starts to happen anyways. But w/e, if we were to game this, I totally want the MK side.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby ftl » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:54 pm

Oh, and one more note about the Parson VS MK thing -

we've seen how powerful tri-links are. They're game-breaking.

The MK has a bunch of thinkamancers and a bunch of casters. If even one tri-link happens, that can be the equivalent of dropping a nuke on the whole place - nothing left but dusted corpses, if the linked casters so desire.

A Thinkamancer-Hippiemancer-Hippiemancer tri-link could, say, instantly halt all combat or something.

Or lots of other potential game-breaking links.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:59 pm

LordAcme wrote:But w/e, if we were to game this, I totally want the MK side.
You might be the only one who wants that side. The casters of the Magic Kingdom probably don't. They have no Duty or Loyalty to the Magic Kingdom because it's not a real side, and each caster is either visiting from their own side or else is independent. They won't want to die for the Magic Kingdom, so if it comes to fighting they will probably either run away or surrender immediately.

Whatever happens, we can be sure that it won't be a major battle because Parson wouldn't be doing this if he wasn't sure of the outcome. I just wish I knew what Parson's intentions are.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby TheLiontamer » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:01 pm

Thinkamancer-Hippiemancer-Carnymancer, nobody can fight, because everyone believes its against the rules.

Bam, peace on erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby LordAcme » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:12 pm

Yogi wrote:For those who say Casters have low combat stats, Wanda previously engaged in melee combat with Ansom and not only didn't instantly die, but was able to trap his weapons. This shows that casters are not necessarily bad in combat.

Hmm, I'd forgotten about that. She also melee'd in Book 0 as a very low level caster, croaking a unit in combat iirc.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby LordAcme » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:19 pm

Lilwik wrote:
LordAcme wrote:But w/e, if we were to game this, I totally want the MK side.
You might be the only one who wants that side. The casters of the Magic Kingdom probably don't. They have no Duty or Loyalty to the Magic Kingdom because it's not a real side, and each caster is either visiting from their own side or else is independent. They won't want to die for the Magic Kingdom, so if it comes to fighting they will probably either run away or surrender immediately.

Whatever happens, we can be sure that it won't be a major battle because Parson wouldn't be doing this if he wasn't sure of the outcome. I just wish I knew what Parson's intentions are.


Err, they are organized and committed to the peace and neutrality of the MK, even to fighting for it. I don't think Loyalty enters into things as much at this point as pure anti-invader sentiment will. They did subdue Parson without hesitation when he first entered, and they've shown quite a bit of fighting spirit in these updates. I don't say that they'll form a living wall against the melee troops, but I think that save for the GMTTA and predictamancers, who would have a serious choice to make, everyone else will unite instantly against the invaders.

Nevertheless, I share your anticipation of finding out Parson's plans.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:42 pm

LordAcme wrote:Err, they are organized and committed to the peace and neutrality of the MK, even to fighting for it.
They seem more committed to talking about fighting. It's the Carnymancers who seem most interested in fighting, and it's not clear what they are really committed to. I notice that they didn't actually attack until Parson was already incapacitated, so they may have more commitment than courage. I anticipate more indignant protests than hobokens flying in Parson's direction next update, and I'm not sure they'll even manage protests of real strength.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Pokota » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:59 pm

Except that Parson has apparently out-cheated the cheaters, who are not going to take this lying down if they can help it. Plus, two factors.

1) Parson is in the Magic Kingdom illegally.
2) Parson has brought troops to the Magic Kingdom illegally.

I don't see much of anybody taking this lying down, least of all the Hippiemancers.
zyxophoj wrote:Also, it depends rather heavily on Wanda ... not being Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Dark Matter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:14 pm

LordAcme wrote:The alarm will spread whether by Thinkamancy or running and shouting. All the MK WILL come in time, and not all that much time. Parson's Gotti is in a vise here, because he can't retreat without abandoning his new troops (highly unlikely), he can't kill ranged units at distance fast enough to win a battle of attrition through decryption ( a judgement call on my part, but I think an accurate one), and his other-side reinforcements are mainly melee, plus he can only replenish them as fast as he can step through the portal and throw their bodies for Decryption.

Point's kinda moot, because Janis will shut down the hex SO HARD if anything like that even starts to happen anyways. But w/e, if we were to game this, I totally want the MK side.
The Thinkamancers and Janis will stop Parson? And all casters will run (unstacked) into combat against the perfect warlord leading a zombie army backed up by an artifact, rather than flee back to the side they're loyal to?

Um... I think you're seriously overestimating the level of organization MK has.

How about this. Parson kills a few casters, and the rest flee back home. He now has to defend something which doesn't have fortifications, has hundreds of entrances, and he's pissed off basically all sides because he's got a back door everywhere. His actions unify EVERYONE against him.

I predict Parson will win this next battle, but he may strongly regret having done so.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby ftl » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:00 am

The thinkamancers and janis can definitely stop parson. They don't want to croak him, but the Thinkamancers at least have proven they have no qualms about interfering with him. Thinkamancer-Hippiemancer-X tri-link and bam, fighting over!

Also, MK has an unknown number of casters who no longer have a side to return to. They'll definitely fight - their backs are against the wall. If at least one of them is a thinkamancer, Parson will be facing tri-links. Tri-links are a game-breaker, and the MK has the potential to spin off a lot of them.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Mogster2 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:39 am

I just noticed something (sorry if it's been posted already.) A couple of Carnymancers look injured. Units normally heal at the start of their next turn, but the MK has no turns, right? Do they need to hire a Healomancer, assuming one would be willing to help them?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:30 am

Mogster2 wrote:Units normally heal at the start of their next turn, but the MK has no turns, right?
All units have turns; a day can't pass without a turn. Barbarian turns come before the turns of all other sides, so barbarian casters in the Magic Kingdom always heal at dawn. Some casters are part of sides that are in a battlespace, and they would heal when their turn starts; which happens at the same time whether they are in the Magic Kingdom or not.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:24 am

I find it funny how casually people keep throwing around tri-link. Don't get me wrong, I think MK has reasonable chances here, but I don't think it is because every thinkamancer (or even any thinkamancer) is going to just tri-link on the spot, given how dangerous it is. It's kind of like assuming that a Stupidworld Superpower is going to start nuking other countries. Sure, they could. Sure, it would be decisive. But the fallout would be horrible.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Mikalyaran » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:23 am

Finwe wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:She had a magic item not an artifact.


Actually, I don't think it's ever explicitly stated what the Chillaxe is, other than that she needs it for the hex-wide peace spell. It could be a magic-item, an artifact, or even just a non-magical guitar.


The best undertsanding we have of artifacts is that they are not made by mortals. So far the only confirmed artifacts we know of are the Arkentools which are all depicted in a specific way in the comic. The Chillaxe isn't depicted that way. Also it is now very broken. Artifacts would have be much harder to destory. So if we are going to assume the chillaxe is anything it seem, based on the comic, it would be a magic item. Though I do suppose it could be a non-magical guiter. Seems unlikely for the main item of a level 12 caster not to be at least magical though.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:33 am

Mikalyaran wrote:The best undertsanding we have of artifacts is that they are not made by mortals.

Well we know a tiny bit more than that. 'Tools are just one KIND of Artifact, the most powerful kind. An Artifact is just anything that wasn't crafted by an Erfling, such as Parson's bracer. So while we know the axe isn't a 'Tool, it could still be either a magical item she crafted herself, or an artifact she discovered in Ruins.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Mikalyaran » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:38 am

0beron wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:The best undertsanding we have of artifacts is that they are not made by mortals.

Well we know a tiny bit more than that. 'Tools are just one KIND of Artifact, the most powerful kind. An Artifact is just anything that wasn't crafted by an Erfling, such as Parson's bracer. So while we know the axe isn't a 'Tool, it could still be either a magical item she crafted herself, or an artifact she discovered in Ruins.


Since we don't specifically know where she got the axe I'll concede it could be made by non-mortals hand and therefore be considered an artifact. But we don't know the bracer to be an artifact. That's just conjecture on Sizemore's part to my understand.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:42 am

Mikalyaran wrote:But we don't know the bracer to be an artifact. That's just conjecture on Sizemore's part to my understand.

Well, given that we know artifacts are "anything not made by Erflings" and the Bracer just appeared, I think Sizemore's conjecture is a kinda moot point, because categorically it has to be an artifact, wouldn't you agree?
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