Dual discipline casters and link ups

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Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:52 pm

So I was looking at the magc entry in the wiki and the very end of it mentions that the summoning scoll was "created by linked casters, including a Lookamancer, a Findamancer, a Predictamancer, and a Thinkamancer." This got me thinking because I wont think it's ever said that the creation of the scroll was done with linked casters. It seems likely though considering how powerful the scroll's magic is. But we also know you can't link 4 or more casters. So how do we reconcile this? A couple thoughts then...

1.) The Findamancer might just be needed to cast the spell. The other three linked just for the creation. No quadramancer required anymore.

2.) If the above isn't true and If Issac was the linked Thinkamancer then couldn't he have provided the think and Lookamancy? Is access to a dual discipline caster essentially a link up exploit? It would broaden what a spell would be capable of but wouldn't increase the total juice available for it. Does that mean he could have brought some Foolamancy into it as well?

3.) Could multiple link-ups be employed in the creation of a scroll?

What do you guys think?
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:59 pm

The wiki is wrong. Look, Find, & Predict were all mentioned (but in separate instances) so Rob made a Retconjuration so it was only 2 of those (I forget which 2 though). A Thinkamancer was never even mentioned at all IIRC, so someone may have been assuming they linked without evidence (this part I could be wrong on though.) But there were definitely not 4 casters used, it was 3 tops.

However you bring up an interesting point I have been considering in my own Erfgame. Given that casters are referred to by discipline when in a link, I'm assuming this means they are restricted to their primary school, or at best they pick one school they know and are restricted to that during a given link.
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:04 pm

0beron wrote:The wiki is wrong. Look, Find, & Predict were all mentioned (but in separate instances) so Rob made a Retconjuration so it was only 2 of those (I forget which 2 though). A Thinkamancer was never even mentioned at all IIRC, so someone may have been assuming they linked without evidence (this part I could be wrong on though.) But there were definitely not 4 casters used, it was 3 tops.

However you bring up an interesting point I have been considering in my own Erfgame. Given that casters are referred to by discipline when in a link, I'm assuming this means they are restricted to their primary school, or at best they pick one school they know and are restricted to that during a given link.


I think this will spur me to re-read the comic looking for all reference to how the summon scrolls were created/cast.

I think the discipline reference is more likely the result of how rare it would be to need to call a caster by anything other than their primary discipline. We know casters with significant skill outside their primary discipline are rare. As the point of linking up is creating something greater than the whole only discipline a caster was skilled in would really matter. I suppose Wanda were in a link up creating a magic item with herself, Sizemore, and Maggie then her skills in dollamancy could come in handy. But she would only really shine where she was applying her croakamancy. With Issac though he is significantly skilled in more than one discipline. So maybe in a link it would be better to address him as Eyemancer?

The mechanics could work such that he becomes restricted to one discipline. That seems odd though to me. A Link up increase a casters options not limits them. I think it more likely that Issac and the rare few with enough skill in more than one discipline to matter are exceptions.
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:12 pm

Ace and Cubbins worked together to create items without linking. Scrolls could be similar - it could be that several casters all help 'author' the scroll by contributing the elements that fall within their expertise; no link required.
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:53 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Ace and Cubbins worked together to create items without linking. Scrolls could be similar - it could be that several casters all help 'author' the scroll by contributing the elements that fall within their expertise; no link required.


Agreed. But I think that kind of inter-discipline interaction is much more limited than a link up. You wouldn't be able to use multiple turns juice on the spell for instance. Which is why I think a link up makes sense for the Perfect Warlord scroll. Wanda and Sizemore both comment on how powerful the scroll feels. If it was just everyone writing their bit of the scroll in turn and that did the trick why would you ever take the risk of a link up?
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:55 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:The mechanics could work such that he becomes restricted to one discipline. That seems odd though to me. A Link up increase a casters options not limits them. I think it more likely that Issac and the rare few with enough skill in more than one discipline to matter are exceptions.

I don't think it's necessarily odd, because one defining aspect of the Link is the total loss of individuality and self. It's that "intangible rule" that leads me to suspect it's a one-school limit. And the way Maggie describes how to go about Linking leads me to think it's even further restricted to your primary discipline, but perhaps someone as highly skilled as Issac may be a rare exception to that.

Also agree with Marbit. However we don't know much about the actual process of making scrolls, so your point that scrolls should be made in one turn isn't based in anything that I can recall.
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:39 pm

0beron wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:The mechanics could work such that he becomes restricted to one discipline. That seems odd though to me. A Link up increase a casters options not limits them. I think it more likely that Issac and the rare few with enough skill in more than one discipline to matter are exceptions.

I don't think it's necessarily odd, because one defining aspect of the Link is the total loss of individuality and self. It's that "intangible rule" that leads me to suspect it's a one-school limit. And the way Maggie describes how to go about Linking leads me to think it's even further restricted to your primary discipline, but perhaps someone as highly skilled as Issac may be a rare exception to that.

Also agree with Marbit. However we don't know much about the actual process of making scrolls, so your point that scrolls should be made in one turn isn't based in anything that I can recall.


Do you know which comic Maggie's description your referencing is in?

I wouldn't say I'm making a point regarding one turn limits on scrolls. I'm trying to compare and contrast links and scrolls. I'm just throwing some reasoning out their to see what you guys think. This is an interesting question and several minds is better than one.

There has to be some advantage to offset the risks. Its seems like the ability to combine the caster's juice (at least I'm thinking that's how Vanna was able to use more than one turns juice) is one of the advantages of linking. Also the more powerful interface provided by the Thinkamancer in the link. Maybe an advantage of scrolls is not needing a Thinkamancer and so you get to combine three disciplines? The idea would fit nicely with a hard cap of three casters.

This is largely speculative though. We know almost nothing about scrolls and the comic is vague. Wanda says "The Findamancer and Predictamancers have forged a spell together. With it, one can summon the Perfect Warlord." And when interrogating Jillian early in book one she says "Stanley made me cast this spell, right? This monsterous combination Findamancy/Lookamancy...thing." In the second quote it feels like she realizes half way through that Jillian might remember the details from the last time Wanda described this spell to her and drops off the description part way through. It might also be disdirection. But she'd just gone informal with "the prisoner" so I'm inclined to think she almost slipped.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F005.jpg
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F036.jpg

And in the prequel when laying out the history of Haffaton she says “Haffaton had a Predictamancer and a Thinkamancer. The Wizard had a Findamancer and a Lookamancer. By means that are now obscure, The Wizard used some or all of those casters in an attempt to summon a warlord capable of defeating Bell and Blair."

http://www.erfworld.com/page/13/

So yeah...the wiki should definitely be changed. What do you guys think of the above reasoning?
Last edited by Mikalyaran on Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:45 pm

I don't know the precise comic number, but it was when she formed the Volcano link. She instructs Wanda and Sizemore to go back to the first time they cast their discipline, to relive that feeling of their most familiar magic, or something to that effect. That feeling is how you join a link, and presumably is the "catalyst" to your loss of individuality, so you become that feeling.

Definitely interesting points on your other comments though. I assume the trade-off with scrolls is that they must be harder to make, or require more juice, or are in some way "inefficient" compared to a link. Because we have never once seen a caster in the comic making scrolls, which suggests that there are better uses for their juice and time even during "downtime", so it's only something MK casters resort to as a means to pay their upkeep.
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby Lilwik » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:58 pm

I really wish that the wiki would cite it sources for more things so that we wouldn't have to work at confirming its facts every time something is in doubt.

We know that the Thinkamancers were involved in the creation of the scroll because they are deep inside the conspiracy. I'm almost certain that I read somewhere that the scroll couldn't be created without them, which strongly suggests a link-up, but I can't remember where I might have read it. It might even have been the forum, in which case it is worthless, but I suspect it might have been a text update.
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:12 pm

So we've got Lookmancy, Predictamancy, and Findamancy mentioned for both scrolls and Thinkamancy mentioned, but by no means confirmed as part of, Judy's scroll. Also Issac says that Charlie's defeat is "why we allowed the summoning scroll to be created." Allowed is another interesting word choice. It just implies acceptance and not participation.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -09-04.jpg

This is almost becoming a second point though. I still like the idea of dual-discipline casters as an exploit for links. The way magic is described is like another sense relating to your discipline. But when they link up a lot of things blur. I can definitely see what you're taking from Maggie's description.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F135.jpg
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:17 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:So we've got Lookmancy, Predictamancy, and Findamancy mentioned for both scrolls

Well like I said, for Parson's scroll this was retconjured away, it was only 2 of those 3. I'll have to re-read and find out which. I also have an idea of where the Thinkamancy involvement was mentioned, so I'll go find that as well.
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:35 pm

0beron wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:So we've got Lookmancy, Predictamancy, and Findamancy mentioned for both scrolls

Well like I said, for Parson's scroll this was retconjured away, it was only 2 of those 3. I'll have to re-read and find out which. I also have an idea of where the Thinkamancy involvement was mentioned, so I'll go find that as well.


Is there a list of retconned things? I'm looking through the Word of the Tians and the Book 1 Print discrepencies.
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:41 pm

Unfortunately no, I'm just going from memory. I believe it was retconned before the books even went to print, so it wouldn't be in the discrepancies.
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby ManaCaster » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:29 am

0beron wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:So we've got Lookmancy, Predictamancy, and Findamancy mentioned for both scrolls

Well like I said, for Parson's scroll this was retconjured away, it was only 2 of those 3. I'll have to re-read and find out which. I also have an idea of where the Thinkamancy involvement was mentioned, so I'll go find that as well.

How recent was this Retconjuration? Wanda mentions all four disciplines in an IPTSF text. Or are you saying that the spell that summoned Parson is different?

Edit: The link about a linkup you are looking for is over here: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_37
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:27 am

ManaCaster wrote:Or are you saying that the spell that summoned Parson is different?
It could easily be different. We have no solid evidence that it's the exact same spell, and the results were certainly different in many details. I don't recall anyone ever calling Judy perfect. We don't even know that Judy was from Stupidworld, since we have no evidence that Erfworld and Stupidworld are the only two worlds available for magical summoning sources.
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby 0beron » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:33 am

Ok thanks for finding the Janis reference Mana!
So this definitely confirms that Parson's scroll was crafted by a Link. So our important references are:
  • Wanda says the scroll was invented by Find & Predict here
  • Marie says a Lookamancer was in the Link here
  • Wanda says some or all Predict, Think, Look, & Find were involved in summoning Judy here
So putting this all together, I think we can make a logical assumption that Find, Think, & Look were the ones actually involved in crafting the scroll. Marie tells us the Predictamancers ALL know, but she says nothing about them being in that Link. So I imagine their role was simply discovering that such a spell would work, and determining that Look & Find would be required to create it.

Interesting side-note...Wanda tells us that it was Haffaton who had the Predictamancer involved in Judy's summoning.....do ya think...DELPHI?
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby Mikalyaran » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:05 am

Lilwik wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:Or are you saying that the spell that summoned Parson is different?
It could easily be different. We have no solid evidence that it's the exact same spell, and the results were certainly different in many details. I don't recall anyone ever calling Judy perfect. We don't even know that Judy was from Stupidworld, since we have no evidence that Erfworld and Stupidworld are the only two worlds available for magical summoning sources.


I was hoping that...

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F005.jpg

was going to be more specific than it is. But really "anywhere in all existence" could just be Erfworld and stupid world and no other or it could be an infinite multiverse.
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby drachefly » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:13 am

To be clear, you're suggesting that Delphie was at one point a Haffaton unit?
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby 0beron » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:22 am

Yeah I'm saying it's an interesting coincidence. If I understand the timeline correctly, then the summoning of Judy occurred after the fall of Goodminton right?
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Re: Dual discipline casters and link ups

Postby drachefly » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:16 pm

No, I'm pretty sure that A) Goodminton fell after Haffaton was on the way up, and B) Wanda's overlady sense felt Delphie croak. More sure of B than A.
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