Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lipkin » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:45 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:You are wrong. Charlie abandoned his dreams of peace when he got the Arkendish, and then began withdrawing. This was even before he founded Charlescom. Olive even said he was an amazing Overlord, matching wits with two other powerful sides and winning.
Are you citing Olive as a reliable source while she testifies for her life? I prefer to trust Wanda's version of the story, but I'm not sure that even Wanda is entirely honest. Wanda might be trying to take the easy way with Fate by fudging the facts. We really don't know that there ever were any dreams of peace.

We know jack squat about Charlie, and both he and Olive are liars. Fair. But before these last few updates, we had no reason to doubt Charlie wanted to endless war to continue profiting off it. He and his Archons have often said they aim to make problems for their customers to get repeat business. It would be the easiest thing in the world to allow us to believe he was motivated simply by greed, and yet Rob has instead given us reason to doubt that. Had it occurred to anyone before that Charlie would have a reason for his actions besides selfishness?

We don't yet know the truth, but the simple fact that Rob is drawing our attention to Charlie's motives leads me to believe that there is more there than meets the eye.

At any rate, both Wanda and Olive claim that Charlie was once a pacifist. He then changed his tune for whatever reason. Whatever that reason was, it was before he founded his mercenary side.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby drachefly » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:10 am

More to the point, it doesn't help Olive's case to admit that he once wanted peace.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby multilis » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:23 am

Everything we know about Charlie does not have to mean he wanted endless war, or even that he once wanted peace.

Archons said he could have unstated longer term goals. World conquest is also consistent with Charlie's current methods, get enemies to fight each other while you profit and quietly build up overwhelming force. (That is a common way to win a large multiplayer game, if enemies see you go for power, they gang up on you)

It is possible that Charlie when he got dish looked at places like stupidworld and thought maybe war was silly. But it is also possible he was searching for advanced tech/super weapon/super magic that would allow easier world conquest, rather than win the traditional way.

I think silly to be sure that Charlie's goals are the surface ones, his sphere of magic suggests they may be very different.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby 0beron » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:51 pm

mortissimus wrote:Do we have any indication of how old Erfworld is?

I found a concerete reference for anyone who is curious. At the time of the trial, Haffaton was about 11,000 turns old.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby drachefly » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:31 pm

I wonder how frequently one finds barbarian cities these days. Could that primarily be an artifact of initial conditions? If so, we could be looking at around 12000 turns, which is close to 33 years.

... how old is Parson? I'd guess he's younger than 33. Plus, some time has passed between the trial of Olive and his appearance on the scene. So Parson is younger than Erf.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby 0beron » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:39 pm

Add on top of that the fact that Haffaton was a spin-off from an already successful and thus presumably pretty old side, and we are definitely looking at an old world.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby multilis » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:46 pm

drachefly wrote:I wonder how frequently one finds barbarian cities these days. Could that primarily be an artifact of initial conditions?

I think instead product of growth and decline of empires, results of big wars, etc.

Knowledge seems to be lost on regular basis, eg Jetstone did not have good maps/intel on Goblin Keep surroundings despite world being 10,000+ turns old.

Genghis Khan may sweep through with his hordes, wipe out the capitals of his enemies, and be too busy going after remaining enemy armies and capitals to worry about sweeping up/razing/looting barbarian cities. Barbarians don't fight back so often makes more sense kill the enemy first. Genghis is like a forest fire, destroying those that remember this area, and when he falls, eventually a new forest of kingdoms grows up in place of old and has to reconquer the barbarians left from the old empires.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby ftl » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:19 pm

If Haffaton falls here, that would generate a lot of potential for barbarian cities, for example. All Haffaton's cities would turn neutral. Nobody would have any intel on where all of them are. (edit: well, Wanda would, but FAQ isn't gonna go a-conquerin', Banhammer wouldn't stand for it though Jillian would want it.) There's so many of them that it would be tough for neighboring sides to absorb all of them - the edges of Haffaton's empire would get gobbled up, but the insides could stay unknown, uncharted, and unconquered for quite some time. Randomly popped barbarians in the wild would be able to take those cities and maybe start their own sides there.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby drachefly » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:26 pm

0beron wrote:Add on top of that the fact that Haffaton was a spin-off from an already successful and thus presumably pretty old side, and we are definitely looking at an old world.


Ah, it was a spinoff, but initial conditions could have made spinning off occur much more profitable to do even before the side was old. Seed as much unclaimed territory with your progeny as possible and all that.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Aquillion » Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:37 am

Actually, another idea: I wonder what Wanda was thinking when she moved to contact Charlie? She has to have realized that he would try to cut a deal with his daughter to keep any more information from getting out. Hrm.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby mortissimus » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:15 am

Something that would be an indicator of age is gem mines. Since they don't replenish (fracking a volcano to get the last drops is not a sustainable strategy no matter how much it yields in the short run), the world as a whole must be running down its gem supplies. Without mines, Erfworlders will in the long run have to do without mines. aybe not even so long time until that judging by the only mines we have seen. If GK had depleted all their gems (or rather all they knew about), what is to say there is much left in other mines around the world?

Reminds me, Dune2 - that created the whole RTS game genre where you harvest resources, build buildings and troops and try to massacre the other players troops, buildings etc - had an odd feature in single player. If you lost a map you were forced back and had to refight in already resource depleted territory (map starting with as little resources as teh last battle left it, but not with the remaining troops and buildings form that battle). Rather different gameplay that way.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Smoker » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:43 am

Perhaps gems spawn over time? It seems to be the nature of resources in Erfworld to just "pop". So even though the Titans laid down the starting gems (as per book one), it may be possible to find "new" mines that are simply hexes that have been left long enough to build up a substantial number of gems.

Just a thought.

And here's something that's bothering me a bit. Why do they not just insist that Olive Pinky-Swear to tell the truth? I thought that was some kind of magically binding contract? Can it only be done by certain unit types/levels? Someone please help me.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:23 am

mortissimus wrote:If GK had depleted all their gems (or rather all they knew about), what is to say there is much left in other mines around the world?
I highly doubt that gems pop in mines, but Gobwin Knob may be rather unusual in the amount of mining that has been done to that mountain because they have a Dirtamancer which is not a popular discipline of caster. There's no way of knowing how much Sizemore increased the speed of mining, but it could range from significantly to radically.

The fact that Gobwin Knob managed to exhaust their mines and the mines stayed exhausted makes it hard to believe that gems magically pop in mines, but on the other hand it's strange to think of natural allies like marbits who seem to be miners. Are marbits doomed to cease to exist when they finally mine out the last of the buried gems on Erfworld?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Smoker » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:49 am

Lilwik wrote: Are marbits doomed to cease to exist when they finally mine out the last of the buried gems on Erfworld?

That's more or less my thinking - in a world that is supposedly based on sustainable warfare, why would they have a limited resource like mining? I mean its possible that it was for the first sides' starting revenue, but then why not just pop the first sides with a full treasury?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby NYbear » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:57 am

drachefly wrote:I wonder how frequently one finds barbarian cities these days. Could that primarily be an artifact of initial conditions? If so, we could be looking at around 12000 turns, which is close to 33 years.
... how old is Parson? I'd guess he's younger than 33. Plus, some time has passed between the trial of Olive and his appearance on the scene. So Parson is younger than Erf.


If you read further down that same comic that was linked above:
At the time that Haffaton began to tangle with the sisters, el-Efbaum had been locked in a stalemate with them for longer than Haffaton had existed.


That El-Efbaum was already locked in a stalemate, and the fact that Lex Doothis came from another side across the sea (and therefore must themselves be older than the start of Haffaton) - means that Erfworld (and Charlie btw) is definitely older than the 33 years you are estimating.

As far as I can tell, it means Charlie is the "oldest" character we know of (others could be far older, but we dont have any evidence thus far.) I wonder just how many secrets and bits of knowledge he has stored in that dish...does it come with a dvr?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:04 am

NYbear wrote:I wonder just how many secrets and bits of knowledge he has stored in that dish...does it come with a dvr?

Nah, he didn't wanna pay extra so he waited to get that Mover's Deal when he rellocated to Charlescomm :p
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby drachefly » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:04 am

33 years was a minimum, not an estimate. So, Haffaton itself must have been spun off first. That does add one startup-to-spinoff time to the minimum age.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Smoker » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:25 am

Parson was born December 7th 1982 which would usually make him 30, but since time has moved differently for him since entering Erfworld/the comic, I suppose he is actually a few years younger.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Mikalyaran » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:01 am

Smoker wrote:Parson was born December 7th 1982 which would usually make him 30, but since time has moved differently for him since entering Erfworld/the comic, I suppose he is actually a few years younger.


We have no idea what the rate of conversion is. Might be one stupidworld day = one erfworld turn. Might be 1 to 100 or 100 to 1.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby junovalkyrie » Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:41 pm

Erfworld started in December 2006 and Parson was introduced a few months later. 72 turns had occurred since his summoning at the start of LiaB, so assuming that an Erfworld day is approximately the same length as ours and that the comics where he was introduced represented present-day Earth, he would be 24 years old.
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