Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:52 am

Project for the weekend: Make a blank Hexographer map in which I plot out the possible scouted radii around a city, for 1 to 6 scouts, using both 22 move and 20 move scouts. That way I won't have to figure it out every time something changes haha!
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:08 am

Apologies for the little lull here guys, I already told Shadow but I should pass it along here too. I'm doing a big revamp of my battle calculator so combat can be a little more sophisticated, and that's taking me a chunk of today to do.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby GWvsJohn » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:58 am

No worries here. I'm out of town this weekend, so not as available as usual :)
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Sir Shadow » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:46 am

It's really my fault for being involved in so much combat, but what else are you supposed to do with a high level ruler and caster? The obvious answer is crush all opposition.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:52 am

Haha trust me, you're not alone Shadow, I have given all three of you opportunities for combat and you have each taken advantage of it in varying degrees. Really I was gonna have to do this overhaul eventually, I should have done it better the first time through.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:27 pm

Okay, battle calculator overhaul complete....converting things from Excel into Drive is a biiiiitch -_-
We now have full support for Breath weapon attacks, larger/multiple stacks, terrain, and a better crit system (ie, you won't be getting them on basically every third attack haha)
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:38 am

So, I've been working on beefing up the rules (primarily the spell list, a hidden document you as players cannot see) And in the process I came across the question of Golems. I have already established a few limits/traits:
  • They cannot level
  • Do not require upkeep
  • Cannot wear equipment
Given how strong they still are though, I'm wondering if there are other limits on them. Each Dollamancer can personally design a full set of Special-class units, as well as trade or purchase designs made by other Dollamancers. I plan to make the juice cost for creation fairly high-ish and they do require Loose Materials, but if left alone a Dollamancer could still crank out a respectable number of them over time.
So my question is this. Do I need to limit them further? And if so, my 2 current ideas are:
  • Hard cap on the number that can be in existence at a time, based on caster level
  • They do not auto-heal at turn-start like other units, and instead have to be healed by Dollamancer Juice.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Lord of Monies » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:51 am

I definitely agree with the second idea. That start of turn is specifically called natural healomancy, and we also know that it takes a dollamancer to heal golems, not a healomancer, so the natural healomancy would not apply. Given that dolls will be more of a high power, but expendable force, that turns it into a choice of preservation of units versus heedless charge.

The limit on numbers is something I'm not sure about, but I can see the obvious reason as to why considering if you have no limit you could potentially build up a huge force of free, powerful units. Then again we go back to the above in regards to choice of preservation against recklessness, so if you can build up a big force of golems and keep them, then hey, you deserve it. No force is unbeatable after all, it would just require a stronger force or more tactical thinking. Just depends if you can look ahead and see if such an option WOULD make it an unbeatable force. Course, something of that size would, I imagine, take quite some time to build up especially if the dollamancer isn't that high of a level, which goes back to you deserve it if you can make it.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Exate » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:57 am

Any cap on unit numbers based on caster level logically means that if the caster dies all their works fall apart, which we've seen is untrue based on the comic. Once the juice is applied, a caster's work is independent and as real as anything else; only in the case of very special or unique effects (such as making sapient golems) will the creator's death end them. More than that, there are already natural barriers to huge golem-spam in the form of juice requirements; it takes a lot of resources to build up a lot of golems, and a caster willing and able to invest those resources deserves to reap the benefits, not smack into arbitrary caps.

The no-heal thing feels like a terrible idea to me. I don't think we've ever seen an injury carry through turns; status effects yes, but not simple loss of hits. My impression was that even uncroaked get their hits restored to the limit which their decaying bodies allow between turns. Besides, does anyone really want the bookkeeping headache of tracking exactly how many hits are lost on each of their potentially dozens of golems after a large-scale battle? It's pointless paperwork.

Overall, I don't think further limits are required. It's in the nature of certain unit types- casters notably amongst them- to essentially serve as endless resource generators for their side. Where a dollamancer or dirtamancer might spend their turns making golems, another caster which doesn't have direct utility might be making scrolls, setting traps, or similar. Yes, it's powerful to essentially have a mobile extra unit popping site, but not incredibly so. A caster is, after all, far more vulnerable than a city, costs shmuckers instead of providing them, and can have their own ideas about what they should be doing with their time and juice that may not necessarily align with their ruler's.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:02 am

Hmmm, both Exate and Monies make good points. I'm inclined to agree that a hard cap isn't justified.
The healing issue has me divided. If Monies is correct that it's Natural Healomancy, then from a canon standpoint it shouldn't apply to them....but I also agree that once the game grows larger, it would be a really annoying headache to track them....
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Exate » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:13 am

The "natural healomancy" thing isn't a barrier to units that can't normally be affected by healomancy recovering hits, at least in my mind. Erfworld is soaked in natural magic of all types; I seriously doubt that healomancy is the only one involved in the start-of-turn reset. There are obviously numerous other components; something's tracking what units need food to pop, deducting upkeep, disbanding units that can't have their upkeep paid, resetting Move, restoring casters' juice, ending X-turn-duration spell effects, repairing cities, popping new units, and a myriad of other things. When a normal unit heals at the start of their turn it's natural healomancy; when a golem heals, it would be natural dirtamancy or natural dollamancy or what have you.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Lord of Monies » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:16 am

Fair point on the healing and other ambient magic. I'm willing to concede the point, also based on the bookkeeping headache it may become.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:18 am

Yup that settles it for me haha. Good point Exate, thanks for the input :)
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:00 pm

You might just make what golems can be created weaker than the standard specials. If you look at the ones we've seen, they aren't particularly powerful. A hard cap could be problematic for casters that might want to 'sell' their services as a dollamancer, making a doll or something for you.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby GWvsJohn » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:32 pm

There some cap or decay in golems and significant resources used in creating one.

Here it is strongly implied that Sizemore spends most turns creating golems.

Here it is stated that GK has 35 golems.

We don't know exactly how many turns Stanley has been overlord, but if Sizemore spends most of those turns making golems and they only have 35, well, to me, that seems to imply there is a lot of resources and juice in making and maintaining golems.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Kaed » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:36 pm

I typed out something really long and involved about magic theory then decided to save it for the game. One of my players has a mass of notes on advanced magical theory and I should output there, not on the thread.

However, I agree that created forces should have no numerical cap.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:44 pm

I think Sizemore's golem force is more indicative of GK's desperate situation than of a caster's ability. Jetstone seems to have way more of Ace's golems than that, and they seem pretty comfortable throwing them around willy-nilly, so there doesn't seem to be too short a supply.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Exate » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:50 pm

Kaed wrote:I typed out something really long and involved about magic theory then decided to save it for the game. One of my players has a mass of notes on advanced magical theory and I should output there, not on the thread.
I read this and can only understand it as "Exate, I am giving your enemies an information advantage over you."

My plots to croak them all now seem more essential than ever.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Lord of Monies » Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:31 pm

:D
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Sir Shadow » Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:34 pm

So, I don't know about you guys, but I'm having a ton of fun spending my Schmuckers frivolously :D
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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