Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

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Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby wih » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:09 am

Just came across this tidbit, haven't seen it mentioned here. This might be interesting for the armies that GK starts producing in Book 3:

Book 2, Text 2 wrote:Gobwin Knob’s dominion had spread out far and wide, across a variety of terrain types, and Sizemore had seen quite a bit of it. Warlord Ansom and Lady Firebaugh had taken to razing cities which produced less useful unit types, and he would fly out by dwagon relay and rebuild on the ruins. This created a city that popped the same kinds of units the capital did: infantry and twolls for a Level One, plus spidews and warlords for a Level Two, and dwagons for a Level Three or more.


Now that GK has moved it's capital to Spacerock, any new cities they produce - potentially the ones that they'll be retaking from Faq if they go for the burn 'n' turn method - may produce different units. Or, they may not be able to produce many units at all - I seem to recall that certain units (such as Marbits) wouldn't be popped for sides that work with Gobwins. Parson may find new cities very limited in options for production.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:20 am

Marbits are natural allies. Cities don't pop them.

The units we've seen Jetstone cities pop are basic infantry and Gumps.

It's interesting to note that Jetstone changed capitals to Spacerock at some point in the past. So either Jetstone was happy making Spacerock units or the side determines what units the capital makes not the capital decides what unit the side makes.

It's also implied that Dwagon popping is a function of Stanley having the hammer, so that shouldn't change.

In summary, it's an interesting idea, but I doubt it's going to have a real effect.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby ftl » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:47 pm

If I remember right, cities can keep popping the same types of units when they're captured. I think I remember the part where GK was steamrolling and Parson would sometimes have sizemore raze and rebuild cities to make them pop GK units if he didn't like the units they popped otherwise.

So I think Spacerock will pop Spacerock units unless it is razed and rebuilt... ...but I don't know what it will pop if that happens, GK units (from GK the side) or Spacerock units since it's the capital.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:56 pm

GK cities of the "old" style popped Dwagons naturally, at a fairly slow rate. Stanely having the 'Hammer lets him tame them from the wild, it has no effect on city production.

If Spacerock remains the Capital, then I assume any future cities that GK rebuilds will pop the Jetstone style of units, meaning infantry just like GK, and Gumps instead of Twolls, while existing cities including GK City will produce the same units they do now.

Of course, I expect this won't actually come to light because somebody is gonna split off and make a new child side from GK using Spacerock as a capital (either as is or razed and built in their own style)
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby Whispri » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:15 pm

My guess? The standard Jetstone Units: Infantry, Commanders, Orlies, Unipegataurs, Sourmanders and Gumps. Maybe Dwagons as well as noted above. It is possible that some or most of their cities were founded before Spacerock was made the Capital, in that case there'd be no way to tell, as Dhystone for example, would be a colony of the once and future Capital, rather than of Spacerock.

And yeah, it could be that Tribe and Terrain are the deciding factors, that is to say, that a Gobwin Knob Capital in the mountains would produce one set of Units, while a Gobwin Knob Capital in the plains would produce another. But if you leave those same Capitals in the hands of Faq? Completely different Unit lists for both.

0beron wrote:GK cities of the "old" style popped Dwagons naturally, at a fairly slow rate. Stanely having the 'Hammer lets him tame them from the wild, it has no effect on city production.

Did they? We don't know what Gobwin Knob popped before Stanley became the Ruler. Dwagons could be on the list purely because the Ruler holds the Arkenhammer. And well, why else would Dwagons mean Stanley?
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:30 pm

...I think people are making this needlessly complicated. Sides pop a certain set of units, regardless of the terrain or any other factors. What a given city pops is determined when it is built, and never changes unless it's razed. So assuming that Spacerock remains the GK capital, GK will produce units as follows:
  • Cities already built by GK pop the Twolls, Dwagons, ect.
  • Cities owned by Gk but not built by them will pop their native unit types, the units that Unaroyal or Jetstone or FAQ pop.
  • New cities built by Gk after this time will pop Jetstone unit types.
It doen't get much simpler, and this is all stated explicitly in the comic.

As for the Dwagon issue, I'm not sure off the top of my head if it is stated explicitly, but it makes sense that GK has always popped Dwagons. Sides all have 3 types of "specialized" units, and Dwagons/Megalos/Gumps/Archons seem to be the top tier. "Dwagons means Stanley" is still possible under this, because perhaps he is the only side around here that pops Dwagons. Or, the sheer number means it would have to be a side who can tame them because popping alone would never produce so many.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby ftl » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:05 pm

We know that Stanley had Dwagons when he was chief warlord and before he was ruler, since he had dwagons with him to raze FAQ and when Saline IV fell.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:23 pm

ftl wrote:We know that Stanley had Dwagons when he was chief warlord and before he was ruler, since he had dwagons with him to raze FAQ and when Saline IV fell.
Well to be fair, those technically could have been tamed as well rather than popped, so it doesn't totally bust the Hammer=Ability to pop Dwagons theory. But since it's never been mentioned as that being an effect, we can assume GK always popped Dwagons.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby Whispri » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:37 pm

0beron wrote:...I think people are making this needlessly complicated. Sides pop a certain set of units, regardless of the terrain or any other factors. What a given city pops is determined when it is built, and never changes unless it's razed. So assuming that Spacerock remains the GK capital, GK will produce units as follows:
  • Cities already built by GK pop the Twolls, Dwagons, ect.
  • Cities owned by Gk but not built by them will pop their native unit types, the units that Unaroyal or Jetstone or FAQ pop.
  • New cities built by Gk after this time will pop Jetstone unit types.
It doen't get much simpler, and this is all stated explicitly in the comic.

As for the Dwagon issue, I'm not sure off the top of my head if it is stated explicitly, but it makes sense that GK has always popped Dwagons. Sides all have 3 types of "specialized" units, and Dwagons/Megalos/Gumps/Archons seem to be the top tier. "Dwagons means Stanley" is still possible under this, because perhaps he is the only side around here that pops Dwagons. Or, the sheer number means it would have to be a side who can tame them because popping alone would never produce so many.

We've never seen the results of changing the Site of the Capital, this is new mechanic territory. I mean sure, Faq appears to have the same Unit list in both its incarnations, but new Faq was built on exactly the same spot as the old Kingdom.

Why does it make sense that Gobwin Knob always popped Dwagons? Stanley was able to maintain a force of Dwagons three score strong despite having fought a long and disastrous war whilst unable to leave the Capital. Also, on the numbers front, you've miscounted, Jetstone have four (mentioned in a prior post), Faq only two (Gwiffons and Megalogwiffs), Translyvito five (Skanks, Goyles, Doombats, Thunderbirds and Firebirds) while Goodminton had loads.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:14 pm

Whispri wrote:
0beron wrote:...I think people are making this needlessly complicated. Sides pop a certain set of units, regardless of the terrain or any other factors. What a given city pops is determined when it is built, and never changes unless it's razed. So assuming that Spacerock remains the GK capital, GK will produce units as follows:
  • Cities already built by GK pop the Twolls, Dwagons, ect.
  • Cities owned by Gk but not built by them will pop their native unit types, the units that Unaroyal or Jetstone or FAQ pop.
  • New cities built by Gk after this time will pop Jetstone unit types.
It doen't get much simpler, and this is all stated explicitly in the comic.

As for the Dwagon issue, I'm not sure off the top of my head if it is stated explicitly, but it makes sense that GK has always popped Dwagons. Sides all have 3 types of "specialized" units, and Dwagons/Megalos/Gumps/Archons seem to be the top tier. "Dwagons means Stanley" is still possible under this, because perhaps he is the only side around here that pops Dwagons. Or, the sheer number means it would have to be a side who can tame them because popping alone would never produce so many.

We've never seen the results of changing the Site of the Capital, this is new mechanic territory. I mean sure, Faq appears to have the same Unit list in both its incarnations, but new Faq was built on exactly the same spot as the old Kingdom.

Why does it make sense that Gobwin Knob always popped Dwagons? Stanley was able to maintain a force of Dwagons three score strong despite having fought a long and disastrous war whilst unable to leave the Capital. Also, on the numbers front, you've miscounted, Jetstone have four (mentioned in a prior post), Faq only two (Gwiffons and Megalogwiffs), Translyvito five (Skanks, Goyles, Doombats, Thunderbirds and Firebirds) while Goodminton had loads.

I don't know, this may be about the only thing we've seen so far as the benefit to having one city over another being the capital: That you can have a different set of unit types as your base city template. It has been stated rather explicitly that new cities build what the capital builds, and that any given city builds what it built before being captured if not rebuilt. Therefore unless Spacerock is razed and rebuilt, there isn't any real reason it shouldn't keep its old unit loadout, and all future cities will follow that loadout. There is also no reason (in fact, several reasons against) any of GKs current cities being effected as far as unit loadouts go.

And your argument doesn't really stand for GK always having popped dwagons. If it is a arkenhammer ability (which has never been mentioned) then it wouldn't change anything since Stanley has been ruler for a while. It wouldn't matter much if he'd been popping them back before he got the arkenhammer. Still though, I feel it has always been a GK (the city) ability, or something likely would have been mentioned about it.

Also, as a note, Skanks and Goyles are the same unit, one is just a high level title. And FAQ may have more, it just may have never bothered producing their ground 'specials'. Goodminton is kinda unknown, as it could have had natural allies and the like involved in their list.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby Whispri » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:48 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:I don't know, this may be about the only thing we've seen so far as the benefit to having one city over another being the capital: That you can have a different set of unit types as your base city template. It has been stated rather explicitly that new cities build what the capital builds, and that any given city builds what it built before being captured if not rebuilt. Therefore unless Spacerock is razed and rebuilt, there isn't any real reason it shouldn't keep its old unit loadout, and all future cities will follow that loadout. There is also no reason (in fact, several reasons against) any of GKs current cities being effected as far as unit loadouts go.

And your argument doesn't really stand for GK always having popped dwagons. If it is a arkenhammer ability (which has never been mentioned) then it wouldn't change anything since Stanley has been ruler for a while. It wouldn't matter much if he'd been popping them back before he got the arkenhammer. Still though, I feel it has always been a GK (the city) ability, or something likely would have been mentioned about it.

Also, as a note, Skanks and Goyles are the same unit, one is just a high level title. And FAQ may have more, it just may have never bothered producing their ground 'specials'. Goodminton is kinda unknown, as it could have had natural allies and the like involved in their list.

Subordinate Cities aren't Capital Sites. What applies to them and what applies to a City freshly declared to be a Side's Capital...

It would change things from Saline IV's day. Who Ruled Gobwin Knob during the time of Faq's destruction. It's the lack of Dwagons in use by the RCC that's telling though, there'd be no risk of Stanley taming them once he's Ruler. They captured loads of his Cities. And yet...

Skanks are Knights, Goyles are not Knights. They're as different as Stabbers and Pikers (and four is still more than three). The lack of garrison Hippogwiffs or the like speaks for itself as far as Faq is concerned. And as for Goodminton, the mounts alone bring them up to four (Nickle Horses, Quarter Horses, Sawhorses and Brontoswords), five if Battery Chargers are Units. The fliers and war beasts are just icing on the cake (the Pokedaemons do sound like natural allies btw).
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby drachefly » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:10 am

ftl wrote:We know that Stanley had Dwagons when he was chief warlord and before he was ruler, since he had dwagons with him to raze FAQ and when Saline IV fell.


More pertinently, isn't there a panel showing Stanley discovering the arkenhammer? Doesn't that panel have dwagons in it?
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:50 pm

Whispri wrote:Subordinate Cities aren't Capital Sites. What applies to them and what applies to a City freshly declared to be a Side's Capital...

Skanks are Knights, Goyles are not Knights. They're as different as Stabbers and Pikers (and four is still more than three). The lack of garrison Hippogwiffs or the like speaks for itself as far as Faq is concerned. And as for Goodminton, the mounts alone bring them up to four (Nickle Horses, Quarter Horses, Sawhorses and Brontoswords), five if Battery Chargers are Units. The fliers and war beasts are just icing on the cake (the Pokedaemons do sound like natural allies btw).

Ah, so you're saying GK's primary list may overwrite whatever was on Spacerock because it is now the capital. I suppose that's possible, but personally it sounds to me like the main reason you would move your capital: That the other capital has a unit loadout that is more to your liking for new cities.

As for Skanks v Goyles, I've always figured that 'Knight' is a title given to a unit at a particular level. KISS was composed of Hobgobwin knights, but there was nothing that set them apart from any other Hobgobwin as far as I could see (beyond their raiment). It's up for debate I suppose, but in any calculation of how many 'specials' a side has, the fact that they could have a unique loadout for every city they own has to be considered. Not that it matters all that much.

I can't come up with the scene where Stanley found the Arkenhammer, but if it does show Dwagons in use by Stanely then that'd be fairly good evidence.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby drachefly » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:01 pm

Casters have Novice-Adept-Master ranks, which are distinct from levels. I suspect that Knight is an analogue for some other branch of units.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby Whispri » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:54 pm

drachefly wrote:
ftl wrote:We know that Stanley had Dwagons when he was chief warlord and before he was ruler, since he had dwagons with him to raze FAQ and when Saline IV fell.

More pertinently, isn't there a panel showing Stanley discovering the arkenhammer? Doesn't that panel have dwagons in it?

You mean the second panel of this? I could take that to be Stanley learning to use it but... there are only three Dwagons present including the one he's apparantly taming. No reason to think he had anymore at that point.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Ah, so you're saying GK's primary list may overwrite whatever was on Spacerock because it is now the capital. I suppose that's possible, but personally it sounds to me like the main reason you would move your capital: That the other capital has a unit loadout that is more to your liking for new cities.

As for Skanks v Goyles, I've always figured that 'Knight' is a title given to a unit at a particular level. KISS was composed of Hobgobwin knights, but there was nothing that set them apart from any other Hobgobwin as far as I could see (beyond their raiment). It's up for debate I suppose, but in any calculation of how many 'specials' a side has, the fact that they could have a unique loadout for every city they own has to be considered. Not that it matters all that much.

I can't come up with the scene where Stanley found the Arkenhammer, but if it does show Dwagons in use by Stanely then that'd be fairly good evidence.

The only times we've seen a Capital moved have both been in the face of danger. As for lists, the Gobwin Knob list has to overwrite Spacerock's list to a point, or else they'd
be popping a Prince now.

I see no reason to believe that a Stabber or Piker could become a Knight. Even if they could, it would still mean becoming a different type of Unit, much as being promoted to Warlord would make them a different class of Unit.

I've posted the page I believe was spoken of above as I'm sure you've noticed.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:18 am

It doesn't have to overwrite anything. Spacerock wasn't producing a prince when it was captured. And even if it was, all that has to happen is whatever units are in queue when a city is captured are canceled, which is how I've seen things work in... oh, every game ever to exist of this type. You cap the city, you may have access to the same unit list, but you still have to restart production on anything that was 'in progress'.

As for a Stabber/Piker not becoming a Knight... why not? We've not seen any evidence that Knight is a unit type any more than Adept is. In fact, we've seen some evidence of the contrary. First off, no unit is ever simply refereed to as 'Knight' like they are 'Stabber' Instead they're refereed to as 'Knight-class X'. Knight class Skank, Hobgobwin Knights, Archons are Knight class units. Every reference to Knight has been as a sort of modifier to some base unit. I think it may be an attribute just like Heavy is actually. Which means a Goyle and Skank aren't different units, just like a Hobgobwin and a Hobgobwin that has been promoted to Heavy aren't different units.

And if that panel is the one in question (and I think it is) you're right that it doesn't show anything that could't be him having already tamed a few dwagons.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby drachefly » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:29 am

Whispri wrote:
drachefly wrote:
ftl wrote:We know that Stanley had Dwagons when he was chief warlord and before he was ruler, since he had dwagons with him to raze FAQ and when Saline IV fell.

More pertinently, isn't there a panel showing Stanley discovering the arkenhammer? Doesn't that panel have dwagons in it?

You mean the second panel of this? I could take that to be Stanley learning to use it but... there are only three Dwagons present including the one he's apparantly taming. No reason to think he had anymore at that point.


Yes. He looks really surprised as he's looking at the hammer. Given that, and that there's already someone riding one of the dwagons, I'm going to guess that the side already had dwagons.


Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Spacerock wasn't producing a prince when it was captured.

What?
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby Whispri » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:47 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:It doesn't have to overwrite anything. Spacerock wasn't producing a prince when it was captured. And even if it was, all that has to happen is whatever units are in queue when a city is captured are canceled, which is how I've seen things work in... oh, every game ever to exist of this type. You cap the city, you may have access to the same unit list, but you still have to restart production on anything that was 'in progress'.

As for a Stabber/Piker not becoming a Knight... why not? We've not seen any evidence that Knight is a unit type any more than Adept is. In fact, we've seen some evidence of the contrary. First off, no unit is ever simply refereed to as 'Knight' like they are 'Stabber' Instead they're refereed to as 'Knight-class X'. Knight class Skank, Hobgobwin Knights, Archons are Knight class units. Every reference to Knight has been as a sort of modifier to some base unit. I think it may be an attribute just like Heavy is actually. Which means a Goyle and Skank aren't different units, just like a Hobgobwin and a Hobgobwin that has been promoted to Heavy aren't different units.

And if that panel is the one in question (and I think it is) you're right that it doesn't show anything that could't be him having already tamed a few dwagons.

Um, yes it was, this was mentioned repeatedly, at the time that Traguywho'snameishardtospellcorrectly was designated heir for one example. But that's not the point. The point is, the City is capable of popping a Prince. That has to change. It's capable of popping Courtiers. That has to change too.

As you can see Stabbers, Pikers and Knights are all arranged into different classes. There are different classes of Knights. And on many, many occasions have Knights been referred to simply as 'Knights'. Not much else for me to say that those links don't. Although I'm not really sure why you think a Hobgobwin Heavy Knight is the same type of unit a yer bog standard Hobgobboe. I again raise the example of a soldier being promoted to Warlord, Sylvia was no longer a Stabber once she was promoted, she became a Commander.

Indeed.

drachefly wrote:
Whispri wrote:You mean the second panel of this? I could take that to be Stanley learning to use it but... there are only three Dwagons present including the one he's apparantly taming. No reason to think he had anymore at that point.

Yes. He looks really surprised as he's looking at the hammer. Given that, and that there's already someone riding one of the dwagons, I'm going to guess that the side already had dwagons.

Personally, I'd think the wonder at being able to tame Dragons would last past my third tamee if I'd been in his position. As for the rider, what of it? Gillian rode hers the very first turn she tamed it. And at that, Dwagons can be tamed without Arkenassistance and Gobwin Knob is right next door to a Dwagon infested mountain range.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:53 pm

The capital was changed to Jetstone before Spacerock was captured, non-capitals cannot produce Heirs, thus Spacerock was not producing an Heir at the time, nor was did it have Heir on its unit list any more. I said that the way I did purposefully to see if anyone else realized that :D Also, there is nothing that says Courtiers are royal only. We've just never seen a non-royal side (of which we've only seen two in any detail) that has one, but that doesn't mean they can't.

Still, there might be some necessary revisions to the unit list based on being royal or not, but I still feel that the bulk of the list is going to remain the same.

I still disagree about Knight being a distinctive unit type as opposed to a modifier like Heavy is. And if you believe that a heavy unit is wholly separate from a non-heavy unit, then your own list is woefully wrong, because you forgot to include the heavy variant of every unit type mentioned that isn't already heavy. Personally I feel a heavy stabber is still a stabber. A knight hobgobwin is still a hobgobwin. A garrison Parson is still a Parson. ;) I don't think all of those things should qualify as a unique entry on some sort of unit list for a city. They may be discrete options, but I don't think they'd really count as multiple if there is some sort of limit on how many unit types a city can produce.
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Re: Consequences of a Spacerock capital: Unit types for GK

Postby GWvsJohn » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:20 pm

Whispri wrote:You mean the second panel of this? I could take that to be Stanley learning to use it but... there are only three Dwagons present including the one he's apparantly taming. No reason to think he had anymore at that point.


I always took Stanley's face there to be him receiving a random thinkagram from a croakamancer wanting to sell out her side, which would be unusual.
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