Book 2 – Page 114

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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Doctor Foreman » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:26 am

calyad wrote:Holy cow! The jester is Charlie!!

Has anyone mentioned this before?

He's a jester--perfect for a carnival, eh? Carnymancer? -- and he keeps being a weird lucid wildcard that tries to help Jillian!

I doubt it. Also, wrong thread.
"If you leave out important things or events that you know about, the story is strengthened. If you leave or skip something because you do not know it, the story will be worthless." - Hemingway
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Pokota » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:46 am

Kreistor wrote:
Pokota wrote:Charlie, even with the Arkendish, needs to know that a Thinkagram is happening before he can hack it. A short thinkagram like this? Not likely to be hacked quickly enough.

He may be omniscient, but he's not all-knowing.


Actually, no he doesn't. He hacked this Thinkagram
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-08-04.jpg

which we see here:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-09-15.jpg

It's the only way for Charlie to have the intel that he could access that informed him Parson is CW. No one else magically knew who GK's new CW was. He didn't know that Thinkagram would happen. It is also how he knew Parson would use the MK, since Wanda needed to capture the portal.

And, if you don't accept that, there's another. Jojo is Charlie's. He may be Thinkagramming to Charlie throughout this entire event. He is there to hear Parson request the Thinkagram, and thus Charlie would know to hack Isaac immediately.


The Jojo thing I'll give you, but that still means Charlie needs to know about it before it can get hacked. With that being said, I do have a pet theory as to how Charlie knew Parson was promoted. The Arkendish, like the other Arkentools, can have passive abilities too - and in this case, it could grant Charlie easy information on who the Ruler and Chief Warlord of any given side are - which would make sense for him to have, since he prides himself on his intel and very frequently makes deals with rulers and chief warlords. He may very well have been watching Gobwin Knob to see who the new CWL was, and then when it turned out to be Parson he could have just started watching for any and all Thinkagrams coming out of GK in order to figure out what Parson's next move was.

The fact that he figured out what Parson meant by "turning this into a Food Fight" is perplexing, since both Parson and Jack would have known what that meant from the simulations, but I think it's better that Charlie figures it out by context than he suddenly can read minds without being detected.

Forgot to mention: that thinkagram you linked? Had been going on for a few pages before it got resolved. The thinkagram on 114 may well be a one-and-done thing.
zyxophoj wrote:Also, it depends rather heavily on Wanda ... not being Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Doctor Foreman » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:30 am

Pokota wrote:The Jojo thing I'll give you, but that still means Charlie needs to know about it before it can get hacked.


The editing on Page 38 strongly implies that Charlie is listening in on a Thinkagram which, by your logic, he can't have any knowledge of.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby drachefly » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:44 am

Pokota wrote:The fact that he figured out what Parson meant by "turning this into a Food Fight" is perplexing, since both Parson and Jack would have known what that meant from the simulations.


No, they didn't know what it meant. He explained it off-screen.


Kriestor, sorry for being ambiguous - John Scalzi's Whatever (whatever.scalzi.com) is by far the oldest of these, and I wasn't aware of the others. All your theoretical and general arguments fail in the face of the fact that this IS part of his moderating policy and he DOES keep the place civil. So, best to examine your assumptions rather than complain about reality.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Kreistor » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:23 am

drachefly wrote:Kriestor, sorry for being ambiguous - John Scalzi's Whatever (whatever.scalzi.com) is by far the oldest of these, and I wasn't aware of the others. All your theoretical and general arguments fail in the face of the fact that this IS part of his moderating policy and he DOES keep the place civil. So, best to examine your assumptions rather than complain about reality.


Actually... I am slightly familiar with Scalzi and his blog. Your claim to "civility" I am going to deny. Scalzi moderates his Blog with the Ban button. Steven Brust (a Communist Trotskyist) wrote lyrics he called, "I've been banned from John Scalzi's blog". I never bothered learning if it was Steven that was banned, or others he was writing for. I suspect the former, but never investigated. But, obviously, to Steven, it was a fequent enough occurrence it begged mocking.

Sorry, maybe you think Scalzi is civil, but he keeps it that way at sword point. His moderation choices are not solely successful in keeping the peace.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby drachefly » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:30 pm

Yes, he does employ the 'mallet of loving correction' and the 'kittenizing ray' - and he does not do it frivolously. I fail to see how using strong moderating tools actually affects the point at hand. The need for it does, yes... but let's look at the broader context.

Steven Brust is active on Scalzi's blog; so far as I know, he has not been banned and the song was written with love. It's about the utterly bannable types that Scalzi's blog attracts because: they are personally offended by his stances, such as 'being poor is not so easy', 'I won't attend cons without a decent harrassment policy', 'I support the rights of gays to carry concealed weapons to their weddings', and 'writers don't need to work for free'; and also because he is famous - in particular because his blog gets a lot of readers and the comment threads are active; and because one person has decided that being John Scalzi's nemesis is the most important thing he can do with his life (it's better than him writing more novels, anyway), and has gathered a gang of dedicated personal trolls.

In such circumstances, the mallet and kitten are necessary to keep things civil... and it works. The reason we all know about the stupid stuff is because he makes fun of them mercilessly. But you don't actually see them in the comment threads - not for long, anyway. 300 comments on contentious topics without any flame surviving for more than two minutes? Seems pretty danged civil.

The causes of the difficulties are not related to his position that an idea can be stupid without implying that the person who thought it up is stupid.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Tonot » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:17 pm

Kreistor wrote:. Steven Brust (a Communist Trotskyist)

I am curious why you need the tautological modifier Communist there. Have you come across many Capitalist Trotskyists?. I would be appalled if Brust had ever been so un-mellifluous in a self description., and if he didn't say it about himself, I suspect it is merely a prejudiced dig.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Oberon » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:49 pm

Kreistor wrote:I guess it was good for me to take a break and let you reveal your true colours.
Oh, boo-hoo. Your constant "Waaaa! I'm the victim here!" claims have gone past being predictable and have become truly pathetic. Give up while you are behind, already.

I make absolutely no effort to conceal 'my colors'. I suffer fools with poor grace, and you are on the top of my fools list, followed at a great deal of distance by anyone else who may feel I have been less than gracious about accepting their tinfoil hat theories. No one on these forums can be oblivious to this, except for poor, victimized you. Cry me a river.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lipkin » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:05 pm

No one has discussed my theory that rather than hacking thinkograms, Charlie could be still in connection with the decrypted Archons, perhaps using something similar to Don King's doombats.

Ok, not actually a theory. Want to know if people think it's plausible. If he still had connection with the decrypted archons, he'd know when Parson became CW.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Oberon » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:16 pm

Lipkin wrote:No one has discussed my theory that rather than hacking thinkograms, Charlie could be still in connection with the decrypted Archons, perhaps using something similar to Don King's doombats.

Ok, not actually a theory. Want to know if people think it's plausible. If he still had connection with the decrypted archons, he'd know when Parson became CW.
If Charlie had the means to contact the decrypted archons, and could expect truthful answers from a GK unit, then he would have asked them, and not Parson, "What were they doing in that black raiment, fighting for Gobwin Knob?"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lilwik » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:17 pm

Lipkin wrote:Charlie could be still in connection with the decrypted Archons, perhaps using something similar to Don King's doombats.
The doombats know when someone is looking through their eyes. We actually have a text update from the point of view of a doombat, so we know that. We also have text updates from the point of view of decrypted archons which lets us know that they consider themselves out of contact with Charlie. It's possible that Charlie might be able to access the archons without the archons being aware of it, but that seems less likely that hacking thinkagrams, plus it would mean that he is spying on Gobwin Knob through their eyes and so he wouldn't want them dusted.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lipkin » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:01 pm

^Both valid points I hadn't considered. Was just trying to figure if there were alternatives to the Charlie hacking thinkograms theory, which has been foreshadowed, but not confirmed.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby bpzinn » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:42 pm

About the Magic Kingdom...

We don't know where it came from or who made it, but we do know some things. We know the portals locations are based upon the position of the corresponding capital site in Erfworld. That is, if a side changes capitals, the portal location changes in the MK, and the same capital site, having been a capital for 2 distinct sides, has the portal in the same place in the MK. We know that the process of creating a portal from a capital to the MK, and removing it when the capital site is no longer a capital appears to be instantaneous and automatic, and not under the control of any rulers. From one of the comic pages, there also appear to be artifacts buried deep in the ground, possible generating the portals.

I also think I read that casters in the MK when a sides ruler croaks w/o heir do not depop, but instead go barbarian. Which is interesting because there is explicitly no city site in the MK. Which means that being in the MK could technically count as being "in the field"

For the portals to work the way they do seems to require that the creators have knowledge of every capital site in the Erf, and the ability to integrate the mechanics of the portals with the mechanics of capitals. And the MK itself seems to have its own specific Erf mechanics associated with it. All this leads me to the conclusion that the Titans created the physical space the MK occupies. The inhabitants may have created the concept of Rands, and the division of the periphery around portal park into eights, one for each of the eight branches of magic, and the "enforcement councils" etc, but the sandbox they are playing in is as old as the Erf itself.

Following from this, I believe any non caster depop prococols were also placed there by the Titans, and whatever IFF the portals had passed Parson through. Which is a moot point because the casters already in the MK are not operating on a "that is what is not forbidden is permissible" mindset, but on a "that which we have not permitted is forbidden"

We are at the point where a forceful response from Parson was necessary. From the moment Parson stepped into the MK, he has been treated like a Illegal Immigrant, while all others able to enter the MK (including his enemies) have been given free reign, including free reign to treat him like an Illegal Immigrant. And If their are no consequences for them to doing so, there is no incentive for them to stop, even if they are in the wrong. It is the very definition of a moral hazard, where the consequences of your actions are borne by another, and not yourself.

A lot of people have been talking about the MK like there is a unified kingdom, but that does not seem to be the case. There are some casters who do not think Parson should be allowed there, and took it upon themselves to make him unwelcome. There are others who saw this and thought the same, but did not feel strongly enough to came out in portal park over it. And others who did nit care. And others who did not like what was happening, but not enough to get involved. Possibly because the class that was being oppressed was not one they belonged to (casters who have hidden stats and are also warlords). In short, Parson and co, was on their own, to solve their own mess. Sure the MTTA have offered to help, and that help would have given Jojo less opportunity to try and create a situation with Parson as the bad guy. At the cost of Parsons independence in the MK. And honestly, the writing is the wall. There in a PR campaign running against Parson in the MK, run by Jojo with Charlie as silent partner. Trying to be passive and not make waves is not the solution; the waves already being made for you by your enemies.

Apparently there is a MK wide system for when individual problems start upsetting the lives of enough if the MK, but Parson had not been a big enough problem to rate a hearing (until the last few pages at least). Parson stands to benefit more from making a scene that forces the issue, because currently he is being attacked in the MK if he shows up, and and defense will be spun as "the warlord is invading the MK" and with Parson not allowed in the MK, THAT is the story that will be heard loudest.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby bpzinn » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:42 pm

Regarding decrypted Casters...

If I were Parson, I would have them decrypted in the MK, especially if there was any doubt over whether they could cast or leave afterwards. Because Jack was a friend, and even if he came back a common infantry, he still has the insights and knowledge of a Master class foolamancer. With no upkeep, he can stay safe(r) in the MK indefinitely, and still earn the odd Rand for his knowledge, and other tasks that do not require juice to perform. Mechanically, it costs GK one infantry, to give a friend the best retirement you can. Also, an ambassador to the MK.

I am hoping Parson encrypted both Jack and Ace in the MK, and checked to see if they still had juice. If so, send Ace through the portal and back to check. If no longer casters, send a unknown decrypted infantry through instead.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby bpzinn » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:24 pm

About Charlie...

I have always been skeptical about Charlie having only one City. That information came from an archon who also said most Archons never actually meet Charlie in person at all. I saw that as a bit of a Chekhov's gun. Given that:
1. Charlie coordinated the movements of his forces through his ruler powers, and augmented with the Arkandish.
2. The only Archons who have seen Charlie are the senior ones who do not go out on missions.
3. The diminishing returns you get for having successive cities does not kick in until your empire reaches a certain size.
4. Cities (re)founded by a side have that sides unit list.
5. When Charlie escaped Efbaum he started a new side after he was rescued by Archons
6. Charlie hires his mercenary forces all over Erfworld.

Some of that is newer knowledge from when I came to this idea, but does support it. I think it likely that he restarted a new side at whatever city the archons took him to so he could have new cities also produce archons. I think he would have had his troops looking for isolated capital sites in the mountains in between mercenary work. Sites far from any cities he currently possesses. I think he has found at least one. The archons that found it founded a city there, upgraded to level 5 with schmuckers, and became the senior guard that supposedly sees Charlie face to face. The rest of the archons pop'ed there are told that they are in Charlies only city, and assume that the restricted section of the garrison labeled "Charlies Suite" where only the senior archons go actually has Charlie in it. Each city does mecenary work in a different part of erfworld. The cities probably even have the same layout, so if he needs to move troops the Archons just assume he Thinkamancied the location of the city in their mind in case of capture.

He can even make a fake Arkendish to put on the roof. Just fabricate a dish, and carneymancy the rules on what is 3-D rendered.

Thus, he can have more cities and units than even his own forces know about (and can tell his enemies). Also, it you DO capture a city of his, he knows just how you did it, and can correct for it, when you go for his other city (and new capital) on the other side of the Erf, surrounded by sides you do not even know the names of.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:04 pm

Pokota wrote:
Kreistor wrote:
Pokota wrote:Charlie, even with the Arkendish, needs to know that a Thinkagram is happening before he can hack it. A short thinkagram like this? Not likely to be hacked quickly enough.

He may be omniscient, but he's not all-knowing.


Actually, no he doesn't. He hacked this Thinkagram
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-08-04.jpg

which we see here:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-09-15.jpg

It's the only way for Charlie to have the intel that he could access that informed him Parson is CW. No one else magically knew who GK's new CW was. He didn't know that Thinkagram would happen. It is also how he knew Parson would use the MK, since Wanda needed to capture the portal.

And, if you don't accept that, there's another. Jojo is Charlie's. He may be Thinkagramming to Charlie throughout this entire event. He is there to hear Parson request the Thinkagram, and thus Charlie would know to hack Isaac immediately.


The Jojo thing I'll give you, but that still means Charlie needs to know about it before it can get hacked. With that being said, I do have a pet theory as to how Charlie knew Parson was promoted. The Arkendish, like the other Arkentools, can have passive abilities too - and in this case, it could grant Charlie easy information on who the Ruler and Chief Warlord of any given side are - which would make sense for him to have, since he prides himself on his intel and very frequently makes deals with rulers and chief warlords. He may very well have been watching Gobwin Knob to see who the new CWL was, and then when it turned out to be Parson he could have just started watching for any and all Thinkagrams coming out of GK in order to figure out what Parson's next move was.

The fact that he figured out what Parson meant by "turning this into a Food Fight" is perplexing, since both Parson and Jack would have known what that meant from the simulations, but I think it's better that Charlie figures it out by context than he suddenly can read minds without being detected.

Forgot to mention: that thinkagram you linked? Had been going on for a few pages before it got resolved. The thinkagram on 114 may well be a one-and-done thing.


http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -01-07.png

Couldn't he just be constantly "plucking" Parson? Constant surveillance of all thinkagrams to one unit during a time period doesn't seem too unreasonable given access to the Arkendish.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Kreistor » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:43 pm

Lipkin wrote:No one has discussed my theory that rather than hacking thinkograms, Charlie could be still in connection with the decrypted Archons, perhaps using something similar to Don King's doombats.

Ok, not actually a theory. Want to know if people think it's plausible. If he still had connection with the decrypted archons, he'd know when Parson became CW.


1. There are no Archons shown involved in the Maggie->Wanda Thinkagram that reveals Parson's MK plan to Charlie. Maggie contacts Wanda directly, and Wanda can make it Wanda only. Parson speaks to Wanda by name, and does not appear to give Jack any direct orders.
2. Isaac identifies Charlie as the threat, not the Archons, despite him being a Carnymancer.
3. Charlie has hacked the Eyebooks, which are a product of Thinkamancy, with no Archon involved in usage, and no indication that they are about to be used to prompt his attention.
4. Isaac states that Charlie has unprecedented power over Thinkamancy.
5. Thinkamancers have turned to G-strings to avoid Charlie's hacking.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-01-07.png

That reason was not part of the close-knit fraternity of Thinkamancers, but it knew their secrets and more. That reason had the whole world by its G-Strings.

That reason called itself, "Charlie."


If all he could do was talk with Archons, he would be no threat to Thinkamancers.

Nevertheless,

Charlie can, theoretically, be in contact with anyone. We have been told that the Archons were (not certain any still live) at the very least confused about their allegiance to the Pliers. and given Ossomer's confusion led to Turning... it is entirely plausible that an Archon or two are more aligned to Charlie than the others, and keeping communications with Charlie to themselves. So long as no secrets are transferred, risking a failure in Duty to GK, such communications could lead to inadvertent information transfer, of slightly greater than trivial nature. Archons are professionals, and they are used to keeping secrets for their clients and Charlie, so they wouldn't divulge much.

This doesn't explain the apparent Hacking of Thinkamancy, but your base speculation is not unsupportable, and so it might be useful to you in another theory.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Tonot » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:47 pm

bpzinn wrote:Regarding decrypted Casters...

If I were Parson, I would have them decrypted in the MK, especially if there was any doubt over whether they could cast or leave afterwards. Because Jack was a friend, and even if he came back a common infantry, he still has the insights and knowledge of a Master class foolamancer. With no upkeep, he can stay safe(r) in the MK indefinitely, and still earn the odd Rand for his knowledge, and other tasks that do not require juice to perform. .

Maybe the Casting is an all or nothing thing though. It seems that Non-casters can't even read a scroll, let alone Read it. So if they can't cast after decryption maybe they also can't read magic, or decipher it, or explain it, or whatever other use of "Casting" one might get out of them?. Come back to life but without special knowledge they used to have through their feats?.

Still, even if only as an expression of "Good Captain-hood",it would probably be worth doing for its moral effect. Plus, outsiders are hardly ever likely to know the limitations, if any, of the Uncroaked. So carrying them around might be mental warfare too.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Oberon » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:33 am

Lipkin wrote:Was just trying to figure if there were alternatives to the Charlie hacking thinkograms theory, which has been foreshadowed, but not confirmed.
It would appear to be pretty much confirmed that Charlie can listen in on and even interrupt thinkagrams. Why else would Parson's thinkagram with Stanley have been cut off? His actions within just the past few updates strongly support that.

Plus, it is confirmed that Charlie can hack the eyebooks, which use thinkamancy as a part of their operation.

That leaves hat magic as the only known distance communication magic that Charlie cannot listen in on, besides the natural thinkamancy rulers and commanders have with units of their side..
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Kreistor » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:13 am

Mikalyaran wrote:Couldn't he just be constantly "plucking" Parson? Constant surveillance of all thinkagrams to one unit during a time period doesn't seem too unreasonable given access to the Arkendish.


For a message to be on a G-string, it must be placed there. Parson, merely by communicating to someone else, does not put information on his G-string. Maggie had to do so with intent.
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