Book 2 – Page 114

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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Kreistor » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:13 am

Mikalyaran wrote:Couldn't he just be constantly "plucking" Parson? Constant surveillance of all thinkagrams to one unit during a time period doesn't seem too unreasonable given access to the Arkendish.


For a message to be on a G-string, it must be placed there. Parson, merely by communicating to someone else, does not put information on his G-string. Maggie had to do so with intent.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Dalen Mantil » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:46 am

Kreistor wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:Couldn't he just be constantly "plucking" Parson? Constant surveillance of all thinkagrams to one unit during a time period doesn't seem too unreasonable given access to the Arkendish.


For a message to be on a G-string, it must be placed there. Parson, merely by communicating to someone else, does not put information on his G-string. Maggie had to do so with intent.

Hard to tell since you did so over the page turn, but you double posted.

As for Mikalyaran's quoted post above, I agree. Charlie's got PRISM. Why look for specific Thinkagrams to monitor if your Artifact lets you monitor/record them all, and you've got an army of Archons at hand to parse that data?

Love the pic on Mikalyaran's quoted episode, too (not requoted by Kreistor, but it's http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -01-07.png). Psycho Mantis I can believe, but who knew Zelda was a Thinkamancer?
Last edited by Dalen Mantil on Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby SNfinity » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:47 am

Dalen Mantil wrote:
Kreistor wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:Couldn't he just be constantly "plucking" Parson? Constant surveillance of all thinkagrams to one unit during a time period doesn't seem too unreasonable given access to the Arkendish.


For a message to be on a G-string, it must be placed there. Parson, merely by communicating to someone else, does not put information on his G-string. Maggie had to do so with intent.

Hard to tell since you did so over the page turn, but you double posted.

As for Makalyaran's quoted post above, I agree. Charlie's got PRISM. Why look for specific Thinkagrams to monitor if your Artifact lets you monitor/record them all, and you've got an army of Archons at hand to parse that data?


Possible explanation for why Charlie wants so many Archons?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Doctor Foreman » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:12 am

SNfinity wrote:Possible explanation for why Charlie wants so many Archons?

Yes, but I think Charlie's Archon fixation has more to do with their versatility and thus usefulness in most mercenary situations.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Dalen Mantil » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:02 am

Doctor Foreman wrote:
SNfinity wrote:Possible explanation for why Charlie wants so many Archons?

Yes, but I think Charlie's Archon fixation has more to do with their versatility and thus usefulness in most mercenary situations.

Agreed, at least on the versatility. Archons are so versatile as to nearly be OP. They are OP when you can pop one a day and build up an army of 600+. But every strategy game has a broken unit or two.

My question is this. How is it that Charlie can pop Archons at an accelerated rate...and...do all that hax OP Thinkamancy stuff? Don't those seem like two far two disparate abilities for even an Arkentool? Wanda's Arkenpliers just seem to revolve entirely around (dusting) uncroaked and (making) decrypted, but she has had hers the least amount of time. Stanley's Arkenhammer has abilities beyond his control of Dwagons, but aren't flight, lightning, and sound generation (the "rocking out") all just variations (one more varied than the others) of Dwagon powers? All we know about the Arkenshoes is that they granted unlimited move (as if that isn't enough). In comparison, the Arkendish's powers seem strangely...forked.

...Unless the Arkendish isn't the only Artifact Charlie has access to...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Oberon » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:03 am

Kreistor wrote:For a message to be on a G-string, it must be placed there. Parson, merely by communicating to someone else, does not put information on his G-string. Maggie had to do so with intent.
You've got it wrong, as usual. Thinkagrams place information upon g-strings. Parson, merely by communicating with Issac via thinkagram, is placing information upon one or more g-strings. No intent is required, it comes with the territory.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Oberon » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:14 am

Dalen Mantil wrote:Archons are so versatile as to nearly be OP. They are OP when you can pop one a day and build up an army of 600+. But every strategy game has a broken unit or two.
Well, yes. I've said this just about from the beginning, once the archons had revealed their 4th or 5th convenient plot moving power.

Dalen Mantil wrote:My question is this. How is it that Charlie can pop Archons at an accelerated rate...and...do all that hax OP Thinkamancy stuff? Don't those seem like two far two disparate abilities for even an Arkentool? Wanda's Arkenpliers just seem to revolve entirely around (dusting) uncroaked and (making) decrypted, but she has had hers the least amount of time. Stanley's Arkenhammer has abilities beyond his control of Dwagons, but aren't flight, lightning, and sound generation (the "rocking out") all just variations (one more varied than the others) of Dwagon powers? All we know about the Arkenshoes is that they granted unlimited move (as if that isn't enough). In comparison, the Arkendish's powers seem strangely...forked.
Yes, the arkendish is powerful. But it also appears to induce a change in the attuned wielder that the other tools do not. This has been hinted at in the recent Book 0 updates. There's no particular reason why Charlie should cloister himself, and yet he does. There's no particular reason why Charlie should pop no warlords or casters, and yet he does not. There's no particular reason why Charlie should not grow his kingdom, and yet he does not.

The arkenpliers are incredibly potent, if allowed to gain the strength necessary to make any battle a Pyrrhic victory for the attacker. The arkenhammer probably has abilities Stanley hasn't yet explored, especially given the foreshadowing where he determined to explore it's abilities more closely.

Which is the most potent? I think that it's all a matter of application. A bunch of dwagons might just be enough to wipe out a decrypted army, for example.

Dalen Mantil wrote:...Unless the Arkendish isn't the only Artifact Charlie has access to...
You may remove the tinfoil hat at any time.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Jabberwocky » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:19 am

Dalen Mantil wrote:My question is this. How is it that Charlie can pop Archons at an accelerated rate...and...do all that hax OP Thinkamancy stuff?


Because he's cheating. In the hands of someone else, the Arkendish would probably be somewhat less powerful. But it's in the hands of a high level master class Carneymancer. He's fudging the rules and rolls to make his precious even more swanky.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Doctor Foreman » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:59 am

Kreistor wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:Couldn't he just be constantly "plucking" Parson? Constant surveillance of all thinkagrams to one unit during a time period doesn't seem too unreasonable given access to the Arkendish.


For a message to be on a G-string, it must be placed there. Parson, merely by communicating to someone else, does not put information on his G-string. Maggie had to do so with intent.


To quote LIAB Text 38:

A Thinkamancer could feel out the G-Strings of the world, and vibrate upon them by plucking. That was how a Thinkagram was sent, and so much else.


This would appear to mean that a Thinkagram is by definiton a manipulation of G-strings; the ability of a unit to return information to a caster is likely a passive kind of Natural Thinkamancy which replicates this effect.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Kreistor » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:54 am

Oberon wrote:
Kreistor wrote:For a message to be on a G-string, it must be placed there. Parson, merely by communicating to someone else, does not put information on his G-string. Maggie had to do so with intent.
You've got it wrong, as usual. Thinkagrams place information upon g-strings. Parson, merely by communicating with Issac via thinkagram, is placing information upon one or more g-strings. No intent is required, it comes with the territory.


Any Thinkamancer can observe G-strings, so if merely observing a G-string could reveal Thinkagrams, then any Thinkamancer could do it, not just Charlie's Dish. That Charlie is the only one capable tells us that it is not a trivial task for any Thinkamancer, and consequently G-strings is an unlikely vector for Thinkagram interception. Charlie's unprecedented control of Thinkamancy suggests a different model than the Thinkamancers understand as reality.

But I note that you ditched the original question, in order to remove the context from mine. Let's put that back, so people can see what I was talking about.

Mikalyaran wrote:Couldn't he just be constantly "plucking" Parson? Constant surveillance of all thinkagrams to one unit during a time period doesn't seem too unreasonable given access to the Arkendish.


I was obviously responding to the "plucking" aspect of the question, not Thinkagrams in general. Quote mining impresses no one.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Mikalyaran » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:16 am

Kreistor wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:Couldn't he just be constantly "plucking" Parson? Constant surveillance of all thinkagrams to one unit during a time period doesn't seem too unreasonable given access to the Arkendish.


For a message to be on a G-string, it must be placed there. Parson, merely by communicating to someone else, does not put information on his G-string. Maggie had to do so with intent.


The whole update suggests that Thinkamancy has a lot of nuanced capabilities with knowledge of/ability to manipulate G-strings being the most important. Based on the reading it seems like thinkagrams and Thinkamancy in general use the strings to transmit. Maggie's coded message is an automated message. Like an answering machine when no one picks up. But Charlie could be just watching the line waiting for a connection. That seems well with the capabilities of the Arkendish and the perceived threat level the Thinkamancers apply to Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Oberon » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:20 am

Kreistor wrote:Any Thinkamancer can observe G-strings, so if merely observing a G-string could reveal Thinkagrams, then any Thinkamancer could do it, not just Charlie's Dish.
You've got it backwards. Thinkagrams 'ride' on g-strings. They are a sub-set, not a super-set. It's the thinkamancers way of presenting their rulers and warlords with a convenient label for an handy ability. 'Send a message', without explaining the other utilities.

Kreistor wrote:Quote mining impresses no one.
Do you ever stop crying? Your words stood alone, and were clearly wrong, perfectly fine by themselves. I removed nothing but clutter by not quoting the entire conversation. Boo-hoo, poor Kreistor needs a wall of text to be understood, even when he's just plain wrong.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Doctor Foreman » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:51 am

Kreistor wrote:Any Thinkamancer can observe G-strings, so if merely observing a G-string could reveal Thinkagrams, then any Thinkamancer could do it, not just Charlie's Dish.

This ignores the alleged versatility of Thinkamancers' ability to manipulate G-strings. In LIAB 38, again:

For example, a Thinkagram was not one type of spell. There was a spectrum, from which a Thinkamancer would choose one or more bands to communicate within.


Perhaps more pertinently:

There were many other such hidden mechanics. There were mental senses which could not even be described to a non-Thinkamancer.

It's entirely possible that Maggie has certain admin-esque privileges when it comes to units on her own side.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby drachefly » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:05 am

/me checks the date. Why are we still talking about decrypted archons in the present tense?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby WarFAN » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:41 am

drachefly wrote:/me checks the date. Why are we still talking about decrypted archons in the present tense?


Me thinks its because there is, at least, one surviving decrypted archon.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:45 am

WarFAN wrote:Me thinks its because there is, at least, one surviving decrypted archon.

Ah yes he has a point, one was captured by Ace and evacuated rather than dusted.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Mikalyaran » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:18 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Oberon wrote:
Kreistor wrote:For a message to be on a G-string, it must be placed there. Parson, merely by communicating to someone else, does not put information on his G-string. Maggie had to do so with intent.
You've got it wrong, as usual. Thinkagrams place information upon g-strings. Parson, merely by communicating with Issac via thinkagram, is placing information upon one or more g-strings. No intent is required, it comes with the territory.


Any Thinkamancer can observe G-strings, so if merely observing a G-string could reveal Thinkagrams, then any Thinkamancer could do it, not just Charlie's Dish. That Charlie is the only one capable tells us that it is not a trivial task for any Thinkamancer, and consequently G-strings is an unlikely vector for Thinkagram interception. Charlie's unprecedented control of Thinkamancy suggests a different model than the Thinkamancers understand as reality.

But I note that you ditched the original question, in order to remove the context from mine. Let's put that back, so people can see what I was talking about.

Mikalyaran wrote:Couldn't he just be constantly "plucking" Parson? Constant surveillance of all thinkagrams to one unit during a time period doesn't seem too unreasonable given access to the Arkendish.


I was obviously responding to the "plucking" aspect of the question, not Thinkagrams in general. Quote mining impresses no one.


Observation and interception are not the same thing. The ability of any Thinkamancer to observe a G-string does not imply the ability to intercept an observed incoming or outgoing thinkagram. So this really doesn't exclude G-strings as a likely way for Charlie to hack thinkagrams. In fact , given that we know he can, and this is the most informative look into how Thinkamancy works that Rob have given us I'd say it pretty likely to be how he is doing it.

"Charlie is the only one capable" - Charlie is the only one we know of with the capability.

Charlie's unprecedented control of Thinkamancy suggests a different model than the Thinkamancers understand as reality. - To me it suggest a more complete model and a greater ability to manipulate said model not some whole new thing. Tough to be fair if he can use the dish to view other realities then maybe he does just have some whole other model well beyond Erf bound thinkamancy. But the Dish is based in Erf and uses (breaks :p) Erf rules so it seems more likely to use Thinkamancy based in erf physics.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby No one in particular » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:55 pm

Look, consider this: All the thinkamancers we've seen have described Thinkamancy in terms of radio, right?
Maggie, LIAB Text 38 wrote:For example, a Thinkagram was not one type of spell. There was a spectrum, from which a Thinkamancer would choose one or more bands to communicate within.
Isaac, LIAB Text 40 wrote:G-strings vibrated on different frequencies, and would cancel or amplify each other across predictable distances. Before Isaac had built these devices, a Thinkamancer had to walk around until his head was in a place of amplification, then hold still.

Thinkamancers are basically the only people in Erfworld who've got CB radios, and even then they don't get great reception.

Charlie, on the other hand, is the only one attuned to a freaking huge satellite dish. While everyone else is getting "breaker, breaker, this is the rubber duck" and static all the time, Charlie's got 512 channels and freaking TiVo. Heck, that might even be the interface he uses, since as he's not a natural thinkamancer, Charlie probably doesn't have the same popped-with knowledge of G-strings that the Thinkamancers do.

Alternately, it might just be a matter of Juice. Wanda's got no limits when decrypting units with the 'Pliers (compare "uncroak one warlord OR every unit in the hex and maybe fail" vs "decrypt every unit in the city for a new army"). Thinkamancy vs the 'Dish might work the same way. In LIAB Text 13, Maggie has to spend juice just to "confirm the existence and status of the major units [at Jetstone]". Charlie, with the dish, might be able to just leave the Thinkamancy on all the time.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Dalen Mantil » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:59 pm

No one in particular wrote:Look, consider this: All the thinkamancers we've seen have described Thinkamancy in terms of radio, right?
Maggie, LIAB Text 38 wrote:For example, a Thinkagram was not one type of spell. There was a spectrum, from which a Thinkamancer would choose one or more bands to communicate within.
Isaac, LIAB Text 40 wrote:G-strings vibrated on different frequencies, and would cancel or amplify each other across predictable distances. Before Isaac had built these devices, a Thinkamancer had to walk around until his head was in a place of amplification, then hold still.

Thinkamancers are basically the only people in Erfworld who've got CB radios, and even then they don't get great reception.

Charlie, on the other hand, is the only one attuned to a freaking huge satellite dish. While everyone else is getting "breaker, breaker, this is the rubber duck" and static all the time, Charlie's got 512 channels and freaking TiVo. Heck, that might even be the interface he uses, since as he's not a natural thinkamancer, Charlie probably doesn't have the same popped-with knowledge of G-strings that the Thinkamancers do.

Alternately, it might just be a matter of Juice. Wanda's got no limits when decrypting units with the 'Pliers (compare "uncroak one warlord OR every unit in the hex and maybe fail" vs "decrypt every unit in the city for a new army"). Thinkamancy vs the 'Dish might work the same way. In LIAB Text 13, Maggie has to spend juice just to "confirm the existence and status of the major units [at Jetstone]". Charlie, with the dish, might be able to just leave the Thinkamancy on all the time.

This, except Maggie's thoughts in 38 suggest that Charlie knows all the Thinkamancers' secrets. Now, whether that means he knows enough to check Maggie's G-string for "notches"...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Tonot » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:59 am

Agreed.


Would one of the disciplines make it more likely he checked ( or what do we say for winning rolls?. Rolled high? ) for hidden messages inside messages?. Is that something that sufficiently high skilled characters might do automatically?. Do any of the casters have something like a Turing Hat, or park themselves at Benchley ?. Is the sort of skill that lets you find people who are sneaking or hiding, ( is it Spot/listen ?,) something that you could routinely use when eavesdropping?.
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