Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Lord of Monies » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:39 am

I reckon knights are good as they are. Ignoring the fact you can bypass the pop rate with money for promotions, knights are roughly equivalent to special A/B in terms of power. That they have the same pop rate makes sense to me.

Shadow, think of it this way. They take a while now, but get a better city and before long you can have a decent force of knights. They're not a unit you send out in the hundreds, but an elite force to form stacks for striking or guarding key units.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:58 am

Knights are actually (ignoring specials) a few points stronger than a special A/B (though also quite a bit more expensive in upkeep). If people feel that Knights are a bad investment as far as turns to pop goes vs promotion, then I think the problem is more likely to be found in the promotion cost than the pop rate.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Sir Shadow » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:18 am

The only reason I promote units rather than pop is when I've got an infantry unit with a higher level that I want to keep around so then they get the knight specials.

I just have a hard time deciding to get a knight when I could pop like 8 pikers/archers or an actual special unit.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby GWvsJohn » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:07 pm

Special AB are probably going to be more specialized units you don't mind popping in small numbers. Knights are melee combat units, they need numbers. Compared to the pop rates for Stabbers and specials I can't ever imagine popping a knight. Here's what you can get instead of a knight

Level 1: 24 Stabbers
Level 2: 18 Stabbers or a Special A
Level 3: 12 Stabbers or a Special A
Level 4: a Special A or half a Special C
Level 5: Half a special C

If you want combat, the Stabbers at low levels or the C or D at high levels make more sense. If you want utility, special AB is the way to go. The only place I could see you thinking about Knights is level 3.

If knights were 2/turn at level 3, I think you'd see more.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby 0beron » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:20 pm

Given that we see them so infrequently in the comic I think we have to assume they're not EASY to pop, so I'd say the same rate as Courtiers is the fastest I would ever allow. Their power isn't totally in numbers, it's in quality. They level up stronger, and a stack of Knights will do more than a stack of Stabbers.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:22 pm

Statistically you're hard pressed to beat out stabbers as far as return on turns spent popping units goes (not counting their inability to hit flyers) as they have the most stats compared to how many you can pop in a turn by a large degree. Their large numbers also mean they benefit more from a high level chief warlord or the like in the stack. It kind of depends on how the combat mechanics actually work though, and I would imagine that they favor high stats quite a bit as opposed to number of units.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Sir Shadow » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:26 pm

A stack of knights might be able to do a lot, but so would 8 stacks of stabbers.

The only time knights really outshine stabbers as far as production and application is where matters of mobility are concerned. If you're only able to deploy a certain number of troops to a certain location, I'd rather all the units i move be knights as opposed to stabbers.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby 0beron » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:27 pm

On an unrelated note, part of my rules revamp is streamlining the XP system, which means some of you might see some of your Command units suddenly level up haha. The new system should result in those first few levels coming a little bit faster, and also means a LOT less work for me on the back end when it comes to tracking XP.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Sir Shadow » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:28 pm

I definitely don't mind units suddenly leveling :P
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby 0beron » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:32 pm

One immediate change is Courtiers. They now reach level 2 at 9 XP, and the cumulative requirements multiply by 3 from there. I will not retcon any effect this change had on income in past turns, but if this change causes any Courtiers to level, you will pay their new upkeep and the bonus will start taking effect in Turn 22.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby GWvsJohn » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:59 pm

You can't compare knights directly to special AB. Those units are probably going to be some sort of specialist while knights are simple melee combat units.

I think changing knights to the courtier pop schedule would be a very nice change.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Sir Shadow » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:41 pm

You might not see a lot of knights in the comic specifically because of the same reasons :P they're just not as feasible to pop as other things.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:50 am

Okay, next curious topic...heirs. How do they work?
Or more specifically...should we allow Overlord/lady sides to pop their Heirs or must it be an Heir Designate? And if we do allow them to pop, would the resulting unit be a Royal, since they were born to rule? I don't believe there is any evidence in the comic regarding this, and we're obviously a long ways from this point in the game, I just happened to think of it and was curious of people's opinions.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Sir Shadow » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:59 am

I think if an Overlord/Lady was able to pop an heir, it wouldn't be royal. A straight up Heir implies a sense of lineage, and the Overlord wasn't a royal so... /shrug.

Maybe if they constructed a throne room they could pop a royal heir? Kind of like trying to legitimize their throne? But perhaps in that case the noble child should have a lowered loyalty.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:04 pm

I'm inclined to agree, the throne room idea is interesting but I'd suggest a twist. The Heir could make a spin-off side and be allowed to construct a Throne Room to legitimate THEIR royalty, not their parent's.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Sir Shadow » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:28 pm

Mmm... I suppose so. Spinning off a new side is something any Heir can do, but I see what you mean by the new side being a Royal side.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:44 pm

My personal opinions that non Royal sides should be able to pop heirs.

I don't think there should be any way shortof direct Titanic intervention to go from non Royal to Royal. Ansom was pretty clear about being descended from those the Titans chose to rule. A nonRoyal side popping an heir shouldn't change that.

With the rules as they are I don't see a nonRoyal side ever popping an heir when they can just designate for much cheaper. This fits the comic.

Royal sides have some reason to pop one as it guarantees the Royal/Noble upgrade. Depending on how rare that is, it may be worth the massive time investment. One option to fit the game closer to the comic is to separate Noble from Royal and make Royal significantly more powerful, but exceedingly rare. That way Royal sides could spend the time to guarantee a Royal, or designate what is likely a Noble. This rule change would also justify Trammenis as a truly special unit since he was popped as a non-heir Royal, which would be almost unheard of.

Just my thoughts.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Sir Shadow » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:01 pm

I dunno. The way I see it, eventually the Royal sides would start dying out unless they made a vested effort to pop Royal Heirs and have them split off into vassal sides. Which I suppose is totally feasible, maybe even some kind of 'titanic mandate'
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:15 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:I dunno. The way I see it, eventually the Royal sides would start dying out unless they made a vested effort to pop Royal Heirs and have them split off into vassal sides. Which I suppose is totally feasible, maybe even some kind of 'titanic mandate'


I think they do actively do that! Ossomer threatens Hagar that he will conquer them and spin off a new side of his own. In this specific instance it would be a wash, since Hagar is royal, but clearly it's something that happens often enough that it's a viable threat.
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Re: Desolation of the Titans (CLOSED)

Postby Sir Shadow » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:28 pm

Aye, it has been mentioned that splitting off new sides is a way to get around the hard limit of how much income you can get from cities.
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