Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby No one in particular » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:42 pm

I see an epic air battle with gwiffons & megalogwiffs v archons v dwagons!

Then, just as Jillian finally croaks Charlie, Sizemore pops up from below and makes off with the 'Dish! Jillian goes berserk and manages to take out Stanley next! Cut to Parson, in a dimly lit room. "Exactly as planned," he murmurs as he pets a fluffy white sailcat.
"Are you always so pessimistic?"
"Not at all. I saved it for my last battle."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:44 pm

BAHAHAHA I love it. In my little pet Theory it's actually Jack who gets the 'Dish, but close enough :p Sizemore could deliver it to him.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby ManaCaster » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:52 pm

If Olive has any brains, she'll enter the portal to the Magic Kingdom and hire a Carnymancer. Jillian can't croak her there!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:54 pm

ManaCaster wrote:If Olive has any brains, she'll enter the portal to the Magic Kingdom and hire a Carnymancer. Jillian can't croak her there!
Hire with what money? Haffaton is near broke, and even if they weren't we don't know if a captive Ruler can access the Treasury. But out of curiosity, why a Carny?
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:14 pm

0beron wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:If Olive has any brains, she'll enter the portal to the Magic Kingdom and hire a Carnymancer. Jillian can't croak her there!
Hire with what money? Haffaton is near broke, and even if they weren't we don't know if a captive Ruler can access the Treasury. But out of curiosity, why a Carny?

She's a caster, she could hire with Rands. No idea why she'd need to hire a Carny though. Just getting to MK would keep her safe from Jillian. Of course, we don't know for sure if ruler-casters can go to MK or not. Most likely yes, but it's hard to say for sure.


Also, where does all this 'a warlady important to Wanda' stuff keep coming from? Did I miss that? Or is someone interpreting that somehow Jillian was important to Wanda before she was even captured, and thus makes her the predicted person, as opposed to her being important because of the prediction about her?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby No one in particular » Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:34 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Also, where does all this 'a warlady important to Wanda' stuff keep coming from? Did I miss that? Or is someone interpreting that somehow Jillian was important to Wanda before she was even captured, and thus makes her the predicted person, as opposed to her being important because of the prediction about her?

All the prediction stuff we have about Jillian, Haffaton and croaking comes from IPTSF 54. Here's the relevant bits:
This is what we must talk about. Predictamancy. We had Predictions about you, too. I was told that someone had popped who would become very important to me. A Warlady.”
“Named ‘Jillian?’”
The Croakamancer shook her head. “Not that specific.
“You are Fated to croak the Ruler of Haffaton,” said Wanda.
Now, admittedly, the two things don't have to be related. Wanda could have gotten predictions about a warlady important to her, and Olive could've gotten a separate and much more specific prediction about Jillian croaking the Ruler of Haffaton. My interpretation though, is that they're one and the same.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lilwik » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:19 pm

Lipkin wrote: You can explore magic using science, but at some point you are going to reach the point where the only answer for why it works is "it just does."
We have that problem in Stupidworld too, but you seem to have concluded that the problem is far greater in Erfworld than it is in Stupidworld. Where does that come from? How do we know that it's impossible to explain everything very well in Erfworld?

Is it just because so many things are done by magic? In Stupidworld the word "magic" often means something which can't be explained, but in Erfworld "magic" means something very specific: it's the work of casters much like pipes are the work of plumbers. I don't think we should concluded just because Erfworlders call it "magic" that it can't be explained any more than we should conclude that about plumbing. Remember that Erfworlders use some words in very different ways than Stupidworlders use those words, such as "warlord."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:42 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote: You can explore magic using science, but at some point you are going to reach the point where the only answer for why it works is "it just does."
We have that problem in Stupidworld too, but you seem to have concluded that the problem is far greater in Erfworld than it is in Stupidworld. Where does that come from? How do we know that it's impossible to explain everything very well in Erfworld?

Is it just because so many things are done by magic? In Stupidworld the word "magic" often means something which can't be explained, but in Erfworld "magic" means something very specific: it's the work of casters much like pipes are the work of plumbers. I don't think we should concluded just because Erfworlders call it "magic" that it can't be explained any more than we should conclude that about plumbing. Remember that Erfworlders use some words in very different ways than Stupidworlders use those words, such as "warlord."

I have to agree with Lilwik here. There are plenty of things in the real world that we don't know the 'truth' behind as it were, which may as well make them 'magic' in the sense that Lipkin uses the word. I don't see any reason that Erfworld wouldn't be the same way. For instance, we know that gravity is what makes something fall when we drop it, but we know very little (and even less before Einstein) about how that actually works. Similarly, we know that there is something that injures people in Erfworld when they 'fall'. We can learn alot about the effects of that injury, but just like gravity in stupidworld, pinning down the exact 'why' isn't going to be easy.... but it also isn't really necessary for us to learn alot and be able to do alot with that knowledge.

Remember that 'magic' as in, spells and such, is very different from 'it happened by magic cause I can't explain it'
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:42 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote: You can explore magic using science, but at some point you are going to reach the point where the only answer for why it works is "it just does."
We have that problem in Stupidworld too, but you seem to have concluded that the problem is far greater in Erfworld than it is in Stupidworld. Where does that come from? How do we know that it's impossible to explain everything very well in Erfworld?

Is it just because so many things are done by magic? In Stupidworld the word "magic" often means something which can't be explained, but in Erfworld "magic" means something very specific: it's the work of casters much like pipes are the work of plumbers. I don't think we should concluded just because Erfworlders call it "magic" that it can't be explained any more than we should conclude that about plumbing. Remember that Erfworlders use some words in very different ways than Stupidworlders use those words, such as "warlord."

1. There is no magic in Stupid World, only things science hasn't yet been able to explain.
2. Our universe is based on matter, motion, energy, and force. These things can be quantified, measured, and observed. Erf is based on Matter, Motion, and Life. Life doesn't begin organically on Erf, so it's inherently magical. Life is linked to consciousness, so we can't know how it begins, or what happens after it ends, because we can't observe before or after consciousness.
3. Your plumber analogy doesn't hold. On Stupid World, plumbing is a skill you can learn, but a non-caster trying to learn to cast would be like a blind person trying to learn to see. Magic can't be explained because there are things non-casters are simply unable to comprehend. Being that we are all non-casters, magic can't be explained. Furthermore, if there were a plumber in Erf, it would have the Plumbing special, and without that special, it would be near impossible to be a plumber. Twolls have the fabrication special, which let Bogroll put together Parson's sword with his bare hands. Parson, lacking the prerequisite special, would not be able to learn such a thing.
4. Erfworlders use words in the same way we do, they just have more specific meanings. Warlord still means "Leader of a marshal force," it doesn't mean "potato."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:10 pm

Lipkin wrote:1. There is no magic in Stupid World, only things science hasn't yet been able to explain.
How does that mater? Magic still has rules. And how can you be sure there isn't magic in Stupidworld? Maybe that's the answer to the things science hasn't explained? And again... how does that mater? It is just another thing to consider in how things work, just like gravity is.
2. Our universe is based on matter, motion, energy, and force. These things can be quantified, measured, and observed. Erf is based on Matter, Motion, and Life. Life doesn't begin organically on Erf, so it's inherently magical. Life is linked to consciousness, so we can't know how it begins, or what happens after it ends, because we can't observe before or after consciousness.
So it is based on different things... as above, how does that mater? We also don't know how consciousness begins, or what happens after it ends. Does that mean Stupidworld is magic? Does it mean science can't exist? Does something being magical mean it can't be explained when you have the context of magic to explain it? I mean, computers are kinda magical in their own way, and if you don't know anything about electronics, they're impossible to explain, but if you do, they're fairly straitforward. In the same way, without any knowledge about magic, magic is impossible to explain, thus creating the (amazingly annoying and misleading) phrase 'because magic' or 'a wizard did it' or the like. But the fact is that magic has laws governing it just like anything else. The laws may be complex... but so are the laws of how Stupidworld works too. That doesn't mean the world is inherently impossible to analyze.
3. Your plumber analogy doesn't hold. On Stupid World, plumbing is a skill you can learn, but a non-caster trying to learn to cast would be like a blind person trying to learn to see. Magic can't be explained because there are things non-casters are simply unable to comprehend. Being that we are all non-casters, magic can't be explained. Furthermore, if there were a plumber in Erf, it would have the Plumbing special, and without that special, it would be near impossible to be a plumber. Twolls have the fabrication special, which let Bogroll put together Parson's sword with his bare hands. Parson, lacking the prerequisite special, would not be able to learn such a thing.
Okay, so... use seeing as the example then. Does the fact that there are people who can't see mean that those who can can't make observations of the world based on what they see? Does that mean that seeing doesn't exist? Does that mean that seeing doesn't have set laws, rules, things that define how it works? Anyway, the analogy works fine as it is, because the analogy is 'just because something is hard to understand from a certain viewpoint/knowledge base, doesn't mean it can't be understood'
4. Erfworlders use words in the same way we do, they just have more specific meanings. Warlord still means "Leader of a marshal force," it doesn't mean "potato."
Yes, but here is the crux of the point. When they say 'magic' they mean spells, abilities that run on juice, items that were created/enhanced by using juice, etc. When you use 'magic' to say 'science is impossible because magic' you mean 'magic' as in' some entirely undefinable, unrecognizable, unquantifiable, intangible, uncontrollable, etc. force'. It is none of these things in Erfworld. Also, I'd call a 'Leader of marshal force' a captian, general, commander, admiral, lieutenant, or something similar. But I'd not think to call that person a Warlord in modern times. So yes, the language is similar, and we can generally understand what they're talking about, but the words aren't always identical.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby No one in particular » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:11 pm

I don't know about "magic can't be a learned skill"... when an archer is popped, they already have a bow & arrows, and know how to aim them. When a twoll is popped, they already have the fabrication special and know what to do with their hands. When a caster is popped, they already know their discipline, and can see ways to use it.

And because this is Erfworld, no one tries to be anything else. You focus on your special, do what you're told, and never even conceive of multi-classing.

It's entirely possible that casting is like archery, in that anyone can TRY to do it, but unless you have the special for it, you're odds of accomplishing anything, let alone anything successful, are about 1 in 5400 or worse. (thank you, First Intermission 6!)

And how many people, Erfworld or here, would keep trying to do something after the first 1000 failures? The first 100?

Imagines Parson running the odds, figuring out there's a 1 in 3 million chance of learning the Flight special, and gets 50 pikers to do 60,000 jumping jacks everyday until they stay up...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lilwik » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:28 pm

Lipkin wrote:Life doesn't begin organically on Erf, so it's inherently magical. Life is linked to consciousness, so we can't know how it begins, or what happens after it ends, because we can't observe before or after consciousness.
You've mentioned that casters can see things that we can't, so maybe we can observe those things through casters. We've never had a chance to ask a Hocus Pocuser (Hocus Pocist?) deep questions about the fundamental nature of Life, so we don't know what they might say. Perhaps the knowledge is available already, or perhaps it just requires a scientific mind to interpret what the casters already know.
Lipkin wrote:On Stupid World, plumbing is a skill you can learn, but a non-caster trying to learn to cast would be like a blind person trying to learn to see. Magic can't be explained because there are things non-casters are simply unable to comprehend.
Blind people can understand sight intellectually if someone seriously tries to explain it. We have no reason to doubt that it would be the same with Erfworld magic.
Lipkin wrote:Twolls have the fabrication special, which let Bogroll put together Parson's sword with his bare hands. Parson, lacking the prerequisite special, would not be able to learn such a thing.
As far as I can see, everyday life on Erfworld works mostly like Stupidworld life. The buildings are Stupidworld buildings and the furniture is Stupidworld furniture used in the Stupidworld way. We've seen Twolls build things and they seem to do it with their hands through natural physical movements combined with great skill. I cannot imagine how Erfworld could be arranged so that it would be impossible for someone without the fabrication special to learn how to build things; nothing could stop Parson from pounding a few nails into a few pieces of wood and turning them into a chair. No matter how wobbly the chair might be, it would be enough to prove that he is able to fabricate, as could any unit.
Lipkin wrote:Erfworlders use words in the same way we do, they just have more specific meanings. Warlord still means "Leader of a marshal force," it doesn't mean "potato."
And "magic" means a measurable effect produced by casters and certain natural situations.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:06 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:snip
We can explain our world through cause and effect down to the sub-atomic level and lower. We continue to break things down as we explain them, until we reach something we can't explain, and we call that thing a law. These laws are predictable and constant. And the amount of why/because it takes to reach these laws nearly infinitesimal.

We fall, we land, force is exerted upon our body, our body reacts in kind, and we may be injured as a result. It's a very complicated chain of events, but it can be understood completely.

On Erf, you fall, you land, you take a roll, and you are either uninjured, injured, incaped, or croaked. Why? Natural shockamancy. And that's the full explanation. You fall, and you are subject to natural shockamancy. It's simple, but the reasons for it can't really be deciphered further. It's a rule that stands on it's own, and has no basis in any other laws. The laws of magic are multiple and varied, and have little reason to them.

There are people who cannot see, and so they cannot understand color. Non-casters cannot use magic, and so magic can't be understood by US. The problem is that Erf is built on magic. And I'm not talking about magic in the sense of "whatever we don't understand is magic." I'm talking about everything is classified under magic terms on Erf. Natural dirtamancy, thinkamancy, shockamancy, these terms come up all the time. So because we can't understand magic, we can't understand the very building blocks of Erf.

The only way we can predict things will happen in a certain way is if we are told those things will act in a certain way. Magic has rules we are not used to, and cannot understand beyond that they are. The world is run on magic rules, because literally everything falls under the realm of magic in that universe.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Tonot » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:19 pm

[quote="Lipkin]1. There is no magic in Stupid World, only things science hasn't yet been able to explain.
[/quote]


That is bad science. I don't doubt you are right, mind you, I don't for a moment believe in magic, but you can't say "there is no magic in Stupid World".
Can't prove a negative, you know. "There are no Gods" is another one of them statements people are prone to make, that are just bad science, not supportable. Not that I believe there are gods, either of course.
"There is no Magic that has been found, nor reason to believe it exists, in Stupid World" is about as far as you can be justified as going.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:41 pm

Tonot wrote:[quote="Lipkin]1. There is no magic in Stupid World, only things science hasn't yet been able to explain.
[/quote]


That is bad science. I don't doubt you are right, mind you, I don't for a moment believe in magic, but you can't say "there is no magic in Stupid World".
Can't prove a negative, you know. "There are no Gods" is another one of them statements people are prone to make, that are just bad science, not supportable. Not that I believe there are gods, either of course.
"There is no Magic that has been found, nor reason to believe it exists, in Stupid World" is about as far as you can be justified as going.[/quote]

I don't believe in magic, but I do believe in things that have not been confirmed by science. I just don't call it magic.

And if a god were to be discovered and explained, it would still be a god. If magic were discovered, and it's existence explained, it would cease to be magic. Therefore magic can't exist, because the moment it does, it no longer is. That is my belief as far as the real world goes, but not as pertains to the comic.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Tonot » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:49 pm

Well, if a God did exist, which you just accepted was possible, then ex facto there would have to be super-natural effects, that is all gods are about eh?. Without "Supernatural" effects that can't be explained by Science, He isn't a God, just someone with super-science.

And Supernatural or Godly is just another word for magic.

Also, black is white, and across the road there is a . . . *attempts to cross on a Zebra Crossing*

:P

Edit to add I like No one in Particulars point a lot. Parson often asked people about things outside their special, they would go " . . . I don't know Lord" because they had never thought about it, because thinking outside their Duty is not their duty! And none of them would ever thought of throwing an arrow at the people in the courtyard below, off turn. Yet, they were perfectly able to do so all along.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:58 pm

Tonot wrote:Well, if a God did exist, which you just accepted was possible, then ex facto there would have to be super-natural effects, that is all gods are about eh?. Without "Supernatural" effects that can't be explained by Science, He isn't a God, just someone with super-science.

And Supernatural or Godly is just another word for magic.

Also, black is white, and across the road there is a . . . *attempts to cross on a Zebra Crossing*

:P

Edit to add I like No one in Particulars point a lot. Parson often asked people about things outside their special, they would go " . . . I don't know Lord" because they had never thought about it, because thinking outside their Duty is not their duty! And none of them would ever thought of throwing an arrow at the people in the courtyard below, off turn. Yet, they were perfectly able to do so all along.

I don't want to start discussing theological stuff, but suffice to say, I don't agree with your analysis of what makes a god.

But while yes, a unit without archery can throw something and have a slight chance to hit, I doubt someone without fabrication could take multiple pieces of a sword like Bogroll did, and cause them to fuze into a solid piece of steel with just their bare hands.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Kreistor » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:19 pm

Tonot, "magic" is only that which has not yet been quantified by science. The moment science can state how something works, it stops being magic and becomes science.

So, your statement about God is false. The moment science can identify and quantify God, he demonstrates he is part of the Natural world, and now a part of science, losing the Supernatural characteristic.

"Supernatural" is simply undefined power. Science currently denies its existence since it is not reproducible in the Lab. An intelligent being of great power, regardless of being the creator of the universe, can choose not to be detected, so the lack of evidence is not proof of non-existence. Our detection means advance, so someday we might detect the currently undetectable. MRI's and other brainscan techniques are science today, but the idea we could watch the heat in the brain and follow thought trails would have been considered "Supernatural" 80 years ago. Heck, in 1945, it was thought by many that the Speed of Sound could not be exceeded for manned aircraft. Yeager was performing a supernatural feat, no?

No. He didn't. That is because "supernatural" is just a semantic term, useful only in fiction. If there is a God, then He is natural, despite his power. So are spirits, ghosts, or other currently undetectables. Because, by definition, if it is part of our universe, then it is Natural, and anything we might deem as supernatural would only force us to reconsider the structure of the universe and integrate the new knowledge into the Natural order.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby ManaCaster » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:59 pm

0beron wrote:Hire with what money? Haffaton is near broke...

She could always raze a city, pay in Rands, or offer a trade in services.

0beron wrote:...and even if they weren't we don't know if a captive Ruler can access the Treasury.

Assuming she stays a fugitive in the Magic Kingdom, she could try contacting some unit in the capital to stay near the portal and grab a hand when she puts one through, thus acting as rescue.

0beron wrote:But out of curiosity, why a Carny?

Because staying in the Magic Kingdom won't be enough to stop Fate from trying to kill her. It could try luring her out (for example, in the previous example of having her stick her hand out the portal, Fate could arrange for an enemy unit, or an accident, to drag her out of the Magic Kingdom and keep her out of it). And if she were to give up on ever leaving and subsisted on farming with her magic, that would be little different from killing Jillian in terms of fulfilling the prophecy. Wanda believes that if you successfully defy your Fate, it comes up with another way, preferably worse, so Olive could still get bit by a rattlesnake in her sleep or something. Carnymancers claim to be able to fight Fate. If that's true, that would be her best hope of getting out of the prophecy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:10 am

It would be pretty funny if "Jillian will croak the ruler of Haffaton" actually meant that she would croak AS the ruler of Haffaton.
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