Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby No one in particular » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:19 am

Lipkin wrote:It would be pretty funny if "Jillian will croak the ruler of Haffaton" actually meant that she would croak AS the ruler of Haffaton.
Ha! HA HA HA HA!

I like it! Jillian comes across Haffaton on her way back from Spacerock, decides to claim it after remembering everything that went on there, and an ancient dirtamancy trap goes off, knocking a brick off the parapet and braining her. Hilarious!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:42 am

Lipkin wrote:On Erf, you fall, you land, you take a roll, and you are either uninjured, injured, incaped, or croaked. Why? Natural shockamancy. And that's the full explanation. You fall, and you are subject to natural shockamancy. It's simple, but the reasons for it can't really be deciphered further.
We don't know much about Shockmancy, but I'll feel safe in asserting that your description of it has no chance of being true. The disciplines that we understand best are Croakamancy and Thinkamancy thanks to Wanda and Maggie, and neither of those disciplines are anywhere near as simple as the way you describe Shockmancy

Book 2, Text 38 shows us that the explanation for thinkagrams is not merely Thinkamancy; that's not even close to the full explanation, because you have to consider the Grandiocosmic Strings and how the message is conducted along them, with hints of complexity far beyond what has been revealed to us. Wanda doesn't just snap her fingers when she performs Croakamancy; she considers every organ and bit of tissue and how to force it back into working order. You have very weak foundation to suppose that Shockmancy is radically simpler. Until we have evidence to the contrary, we'd better assume that Shockmancy is just as complicated as any other discipline.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:19 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:On Erf, you fall, you land, you take a roll, and you are either uninjured, injured, incaped, or croaked. Why? Natural shockamancy. And that's the full explanation. You fall, and you are subject to natural shockamancy. It's simple, but the reasons for it can't really be deciphered further.
We don't know much about Shockamancy, but I'll feel safe in asserting that your description of it has no chance of being true. The disciplines that we understand best are Croakamancy and Thinkamancy thanks to Wanda and Maggie, and neither of those disciplines are anywhere near as simple as the way you describe Shockamancy

Book 2, Text 38 shows us that the explanation for thinkagrams is not merely Thinkamancy; that's not even close to the full explanation, because you have to consider the Grandiocosmic Strings and how the message is conducted along them, with hints of complexity far beyond what has been revealed to us. Wanda doesn't just snap her fingers when she performs Croakamancy; she considers every organ and bit of tissue and how to force it back into working order. You have very weak foundation to suppose that Shockamancy is radically simpler. Until we have evidence to the contrary, we'd better assume that Shockamancy is just as complicated as any other discipline.

The mechanics of the shockamancy can be explored, but the why of it cannot. You simply suffer shockamancy after a fall.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:21 am

Lipkin wrote:The mechanics of the shockamancy can be explored, but the why of it cannot.
What makes the "why" of Shockmancy different from the mechanics of Shockmancy?
Lipkin wrote:You simply suffer shockamancy after a fall.
How do we know that is a simple thing instead of a very complicated thing? As I understand it, casters in the Magic Kingdom spend most of their time talking about magic. I find it hard to believe that a Shockmancer would have nothing to say if asked about why a unit is injured in a fall. On the contrary, I'm sure that talking to most Shockmancers on any subject would be a very interesting experience.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:42 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:The mechanics of the shockamancy can be explored, but the why of it cannot.
What makes the "why" of Shockmancy different from the mechanics of Shockmancy?
Lipkin wrote:You simply suffer shockamancy after a fall.
How do we know that is a simple thing instead of a very complicated thing? As I understand it, casters in the Magic Kingdom spend most of their time talking about magic. I find it hard to believe that a Shockmancer would have nothing to say if asked about why a unit is injured in a fall. On the contrary, I'm sure that talking to most Shockmancers on any subject would be a very interesting experience.

The "why" is why the shockamancy happens in the first place, the mechanics is how shockamancy works.

We've had pretty much no explanation about how natural magic works, beyond that it is naturally occurring. And no casters seem to agree on what the true mechanics and reasoning for things are. So maybe a shockamancer would have theories on why you risk damage or croaking when you fall, but that's a far cry from the laws of physics.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby ManaCaster » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:54 am

Kreistor wrote:Tonot, "magic" is only that which has not yet been quantified by science. The moment science can state how something works, it stops being magic and becomes science.

Does Magic necessarily need to be defined as the unexplained? More than one definition already exists for the word, and given the very nature of language, additional definitions can be added if appropriate. Even if Erfworld's magic is studied scientifically and has everything logically explained, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with calling it magic.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:30 am

ManaCaster wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Tonot, "magic" is only that which has not yet been quantified by science. The moment science can state how something works, it stops being magic and becomes science.

Does Magic necessarily need to be defined as the unexplained? More than one definition already exists for the word, and given the very nature of language, additional definitions can be added if appropriate. Even if Erfworld's magic is studied scientifically and has everything logically explained, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with calling it magic.

That's in Erf World. In the real world, as soon as something is understood, it's not called magic. Feel free to call sciencey things magic if you want, just be prepared to be corrected a lot, and get a lot of weird looks.

If humans discovered that they had an ability that they were long unaware of, the first person to make use of this ability would be viewed as magic until that person was studied. Once the ability was understood, it would cease to be considered such, though it may still be considered remarkable.

Anyway, I'm tired of the debate, because I think we've gotten off topic again. My point is that natural magic is the basis of this reality, and because we know so little about magic, we can't assume that things will act as they do in our world. They still might, but there is enough uncertainty there that I wouldn't claim to have found an exploit unless I tested the theory first. A laser beam across a hex might be possible, but we don't know how light acts in general on Erf, so assuming that the laser would act as it does on our world is in no way certain.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby ManaCaster » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:49 am

Lipkin wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Tonot, "magic" is only that which has not yet been quantified by science. The moment science can state how something works, it stops being magic and becomes science.

Does Magic necessarily need to be defined as the unexplained? More than one definition already exists for the word, and given the very nature of language, additional definitions can be added if appropriate. Even if Erfworld's magic is studied scientifically and has everything logically explained, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with calling it magic.

That's in Erf World. In the real world, as soon as something is understood, it's not called magic. Feel free to call sciencey things magic if you want, just be prepared to be corrected a lot, and get a lot of weird looks.

Hence why I said "if appropriate". If humans developed psychic powers drawn from cosmic super beings, I don't think there would be any serious semantic issues with calling it sorcery, especially since such a power would be somewhat spiritual in nature, scientifically explained or not.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:56 am

Lipkin wrote:A laser beam across a hex might be possible, but we don't know how light acts in general on Erf, so assuming that the laser would act as it does on our world is in no way certain.
The biggest potential stumbling block that I can see for the laser is the rules about not being able to fire arrows across hex boundaries when it's not your turn. We don't know exactly how those arrows get stopped. It's not like there is an invisible wall at the boundary, because we know that arrows can be fired across the boundary in either direction if the person doing the shooting is on the side that owns the turn. What happens if two units both hold the bow together and simultaneously fire the same arrow at the boundary, but one unit is from the side that has the turn and one unit is from another side?

It seems like it must be a matter of intention. The arrow passes through the boundary because the unit who fired it wants it to pass through and that unit is on the side that has the turn. So if two units held the bow, the arrow would pass through as long as either of them has the turn, because that unit wants it to happen. If intention really is the core of the issue, then the laser would probably be blocked simply because the people firing it consider it a form of attack, no different from an arrow.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:05 am

There is a species of arctic fox that hunts in the snow. It hunts by listening for mice beneath the snow, then jumping into the air and pouncing straight down like a missile. Scientists discovered that when this fox is facing due north when it jumps, it has a catch rate in the 90% range. Otherwise, it barely catches anything. Somehow it is tapping into the electro-magnetic field of the earth and using it as a targeting system. But it hasn't figured out it is doing it, and so it doesn't purposely use it.

If humans discovered an ability like this, it would be seen as magic until it as understood. Once it was understood, it would just be something else we can do.

MC, your example with psychic powers drawn from cosmic beings sounds like magic, but that's because we've never encountered something like that, and you didn't include any explanation for how these powers came to be.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Tonot » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:27 am

Kreistor wrote:Tonot, "magic" is only that which has not yet been quantified by science. The moment science can state how something works, it stops being magic and becomes science.

So, your statement about God is false. The moment science can identify and quantify God, he demonstrates he is part of the Natural world, and now a part of science, losing the Supernatural characteristic.


Wasn't my statement mate, I was enlarging on Lipkin's statement really. I am going to argue my point now, but in the true sense of respecting your opinion and arguing for the love of debating against an equal, not the least sense of contention in my soul* you are to remember. Love and Kisses beforehand mate. :shock: :? :lol:

I take issue with your semantics however, because you say "Identify and Quantify God" to dismiss Lipkin's' statement but that is kind of cheating. God with a capital G would be God. Ipso facto you could not Quantify Him, He would absolutely be unknowable and supernatural, it is in the job description. If you Quantified him, all you would be doing is proving he wasn't a god at all, which if you go back and read the post, is exactly what I said myself.

Kreistor wrote:"Supernatural" is simply undefined power.


No, it literally is not so. It literally is undefinable power. That actually and inarguably is what is meant, in the English language, by the prefix super followed by the suffix natural.
Your statement might have made your point if you had worded it differently, say

Things people claim as "Supernatural" have always turned out to be simply undefined power . . . so far.


Kreistor wrote: If there is a God, then He is natural, despite his power. So are spirits, ghosts, or other currently undetectables. Because, by definition, if it is part of our universe, then it is Natural, and anything we might deem as supernatural would only force us to reconsider the structure of the universe and integrate the new knowledge into the Natural order.


You and I both suspect this is true of course, but , again, to insist so isn't good science. If there happened to literally be a literal "capital G" God, he is supernatural, and science has not, and would never have a say in the matter.

* This was a lie, my soul is small and embittered, and the very acme itself of small minded contention . . . but I mean well. :D
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:45 am

I feel the need to restate this for some sort of record. Lipkin does not appear to understand what science is, and arguing with him about whether science is real in the setting or not is like trying to explain to someone that minecrafts redstone isn't electricity.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:38 am

Shai_hulud wrote:I feel the need to restate this for some sort of record. Lipkin does not appear to understand what science is, and arguing with him about whether science is real in the setting or not is like trying to explain to someone that minecrafts redstone isn't electricity.


And I feel the need to restate that you are patronizing.

I know what science is, and I can't help but feel that you wouldn't be so butt hurt if I had used the word "physics" instead. What we understand to be laws in our world are not laws in Erf. Our core understanding of how the world works is not applicable.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Kreistor » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:47 am

Tonot wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Tonot, "magic" is only that which has not yet been quantified by science. The moment science can state how something works, it stops being magic and becomes science.

So, your statement about God is false. The moment science can identify and quantify God, he demonstrates he is part of the Natural world, and now a part of science, losing the Supernatural characteristic.


I take issue with your semantics however, because you say "Identify and Quantify God" to dismiss Lipkin's' statement but that is kind of cheating. God with a capital G would be God. Ipso facto you could not Quantify Him, He would absolutely be unknowable and supernatural, it is in the job description. If you Quantified him, all you would be doing is proving he wasn't a god at all, which if you go back and read the post, is exactly what I said myself.


Who says God has to be "unknowable"? He's pretty well defined, I'd say. But his location is not. His limits are not. You presume that since we cannot currently locate his position that we can never, and that we cannot overcome whatever roadblocks He has put in place. That's a huge assumption.

Just because God says He is Omnipotent, that doesn't actually mean that He is. God lies, and admits to it. Anyone with sufficient biblical knowledge knows that for fact. (He sends lying spirits to prophets, to hide the future sometimes.) He can lie about Himself, too.

Kreistor wrote:"Supernatural" is simply undefined power.


No, it literally is not so. It literally is undefinable power. That actually and inarguably is what is meant, in the English language, by the prefix super followed by the suffix natural.
Your statement might have made your point if you had worded it differently, say [/quote]

Sorry, no, that is based on a flawed understanding of science. Supernatural is beyond what is currently understood to be natural. Science is the study of the natural world, and continues to push back the borders constantly. As we quantify and define what was once undefinable, the Supernatural becomes natural. This is an already existing process.

Things people claim as "Supernatural" have always turned out to be simply undefined power . . . so far.


False. The "supernatural" becomes natural when it can be observed. For instance, psychics are believed to be supernatural, but we have already defined and quantified them -- cold questioning, etc. Peopel want to believe in the Supernatural, that people can speak to the dead, but this is provably willful delusion. Psychics are natural phenomena, despite the popular misconception they are supernatural.

You and I both suspect this is true of course, but , again, to insist so isn't good science. If there happened to literally be a literal "capital G" God, he is supernatural, and science has not, and would never have a say in the matter.


There are too many possible incarnations of God to draw such a conclusion. You are restricting the concept to the Judeo-Christian definition, while excluding a merely superior being that is pretending to be Omniscient and Omnipotent. My term God extends far beyond that limited definition, but includes it in the set of possible entities.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:58 pm

Lipkin wrote:I know what science is, and I can't help but feel that you wouldn't be so butt hurt if I had used the word "physics" instead.

I have never seen anyone use the phrase "butt hurt" who wasn't a troll. Also you either still don't understand what the words science and physics mean, or you are using words incorrectly on purpose. If the former, use google to look up what words actually mean. If the later (which seems to be implied by your statements), learn to troll better.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:49 am

Shai_hulud wrote:
Lipkin wrote:I know what science is, and I can't help but feel that you wouldn't be so butt hurt if I had used the word "physics" instead.

I have never seen anyone use the phrase "butt hurt" who wasn't a troll. Also you either still don't understand what the words science and physics mean, or you are using words incorrectly on purpose. If the former, use google to look up what words actually mean. If the later (which seems to be implied by your statements), learn to troll better.

I don't troll, and as far as I can tell, I'm using the words correctly. I can only assume you are misinterpreting what I am attempting to say, something which others are not having issues with. Either that, or you are the one trolling.

I actually hate the phrase "butt hurt," but you seem to have such a stick up your ass about using the proper nomenclature, it's the only phrase that fit. Instead of condescendingly correcting my use of terms, maybe you could instead look at what I was trying to say.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Tonot » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:39 am

Kreistor wrote:Who says God has to be "unknowable"?


Every single god "capital G" has, in matter of fact, to be unknowable. All the qualified gods you refer to are not actually gods, just natural beings claiming the title.

Kreistor wrote:You presume that since we cannot currently locate his position that we can never, and that we cannot overcome whatever roadblocks He has put in place. That's a huge assumption.
Any such assumption is entirely in your mind, and you are putting your words in my mouth. What I actually said is "If a God existed". Do you see the capital?. It means "Classical creator god that everyone knows a person is referring to when he capitalises the concept god" and I said nothing else about Him/Her/It/Them. Because the discussion wasn't specifics like position or roadblocks or anything else, it was EXISTANCE.


Kreistor wrote:Sorry, no, that is based on a flawed understanding of science. Supernatural is beyond what is currently understood to be natural. Science is the study of the natural world, and continues to push back the borders constantly. As we quantify and define what was once undefinable, the Supernatural becomes natural. This is an already existing process.


No, friend, you don't get your own definition of words, just because they suit your argument.
su·per·nat·u·ral /ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/ Adjective
(of a manifestation or event) Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Anyway, you are arguing semantics which, if you bothered to read my original post, I had already allowed for. You are in fact arguing to try to get me to accept something I already claimed. i.e. profoundly wasting your time.

Here is the detail of my my original post that has started this hare for you.

Well, if a God did exist, which you just accepted was possible, then ex facto there would have to be super-natural effects, that is all gods are about eh?. Without "Supernatural" effects that can't be explained by Science, He isn't a God, just someone with super-science.


So, you are wasting your breath trying to teach me about the obvious fact that any fool knows, i.e. science has explained a lot of the supernatural beliefs of mankind. Guess what, I already knew this.

I repeat "IF if if if if if if if if if a God did exist . . . then ex facto there would have to be super-natural effects". Do you need me to define Ex Facto for you?.



There are too many possible incarnations of God to draw such a conclusion. You are restricting the concept to the Judeo-Christian definition, while excluding a merely superior being that is pretending to be Omniscient and Omnipotent. My term God extends far beyond that limited definition, but includes it in the set of possible entities.



Your term God?. But, you know, you are talking English so as to communicate with us.

You don't get your own term "God". It is an English word with a concrete definition. People who want their own language ought not pretend to talk sense to their community.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:02 am

To be fair, agreeing on definitions when a word has a fuzzy definition to start with is also an important part of communication. It's just really silly to not discuss those terms, and then act confused or insulted when people don't understand what the hell we're talking about. Which is sort of the only real reason why we bother with standardized language at all, since otherwise we would end up jabbering like Mediator Moties every time we wanted to talk about something.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby effataigus » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:18 am

Can God create a rock so heavy that He (or She, whatever) could not move it? Yes, part of omnipotence is the power to choose to no longer be omnipotent.

Can God create a species so intelligent that it can fathom God? Sure, part of omnipotence is the power to become fathomable.

If God weren't omnipotent, then mebbe not.

God with a capital G just means you're talking about something named God... not any specific iteration. The only names that are obviously a specific person in this forum are Rob, Parson, Tramennis... etc.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lipkin » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:32 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:To be fair, agreeing on definitions when a word has a fuzzy definition to start with is also an important part of communication. It's just really silly to not discuss those terms, and then act confused or insulted when people don't understand what the hell we're talking about. Which is sort of the only real reason why we bother with standardized language at all, since otherwise we would end up jabbering like Mediator Moties every time we wanted to talk about something.

My issue is that you never explained how you thought I was misusing the words. You just said I was doing it wrong, and they disregarded everything that I was saying because of it. If I'm incorrect or uninformed, I'd like to know how, but you seemed more interested in pointing out how wrong I was. I'm not insulted someone didn't understand me. I'm insulted someone repeatedly told me I didn't know what was talking about, and then acted like I was stupid or a troll rather than explain what they thought I was ACTUALLY talking about.

And you are still the only person in the thread who seemed to have a hard time understanding what I was saying, even if everyone didn't agree with it. The people who didn't agree were debating my point with me, but you were telling them to ignore me because I supposedly "don't know what science is." So yeah, I'm insulted. I don't mind being wrong, but being dismissed as stupid, and a lost cause, does not feel good.
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