Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Your new games, homebrews, mods and ideas. Forum games go here.

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:39 am

Try? When it acts, the shadow of Sultan Shahryar, the great, the unrelenting, the wise and magnanimous, does not merely try. It succeeds. To do any less would be unworthy of its status.


And come, now. A little bit of paranoia keeps the mind sharp. Predictions of mass disbanding and gibbering madness can be held for when he starts doing more than quietly desiring to avert undesirable eventualities, no?
Exate
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:43 am

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:05 pm

Just figured I'd toss this over here, it's a bit of a revision I made to the rules, at least for my game. Not sure how Kaed feels about them, but take a look if you like

Rules 2.0!!
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:28 am

At GenCon. Just got back from Erfworld party with Rob Balder, David Hahn, Steve Jackson, and ~20 Erfworld fans, plus a few random other people. Was quite entertaining.

Title of Book 3 is apparently "Hamsterdance", subtitle "vs. the Charlie Foxtrot". That's from memory, though. Someone wrote it down precisely, so hopefully they'll post confirmation and/or any more details which were given when I wasn't listening soon.

Had an interesting conversation with Rob yesterday also re: courtiers, knights, and the things which see emphasis in Erfworld as a 4X game (as played by us) as opposed to a narrative tool (as used by him). Topic wandered a bit, but the key point was that as we see it we care a great deal about economics, control systems, communication systems, etc. while he only cares about such things insofar as they affect the characters' choices and interaction, so most of it is left undefined until it requires definition, and my impression was that he prefers it that way, as any hastily decided rule might have unforeseen ramifications. Might talk to him again tomorrow about such things, could be interesting.
Exate
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:43 am

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:45 pm

Talked with Rob a bit more today; discussed a few interesting points. All of the following is likely to be mostly accurate, but is doubly uncertain because I'm speaking from memory and because nothing is final until it appears in the comic proper.

Farms aren't popped by people, except possibly by a three-caster link with thinkamancer/florist/dirtamancer; there are instead "farm sites" just like city sites, which can be upgraded (0-level is no farm, level costs and number of levels are not the same as cities) and then will automatically link to the nearest friendly city. That is, if Gobwin Knob was razed, the rations currently being produced by its farms would simply pop in whatever the next closest city held by the side is. Because of this mechanic, farm sites do not have to be anywhere near cities, because they can link to them over potentially vast distances.

However, some units have a "farming" special, which is a natural dirtamancy/flower power thing that lets them cause rations to grow and subsequently pop as long as they spend their turns "farming" (no movement) in a hex of the appropriate terrain type. In the event that a farm site is razed (presumably by an enemy side), building it back up requires a unit with this special, or an appropriate caster (florist or dirtamancer).

"Mines" are done in a manner resembling the farming special, rather than the farm sites. That is, certain hexes of certain terrain types have mine-able resources, and a unit with the digging special (or a dirtamancer) can spend their turn "mining" with no movement in exchange for a random chance at getting gems. Gobwin Knob's mines are a result of hundreds of turns of this being done on a large scale, so this can semi-permanently alter terrain.

Semi-permanently because terrain which is altered by units' actions will gradually revert to a natural state over many turns; this is a form of Signamancy, in that absent any unit action, a hex's signamancy will gradually drift so that it looks uninhabited, just like units' signamancy will gradually drift to show truths about them. Interestingly, this means that signamancy is used for tracking- the Signs left by the passage of a unit (appearing as broken branches and such, like real-world signs of passage) can be read, potentially even many turns later, until the hex has fully reverted to its state prior to their arrival. When you bring natural magical abilities or casters using Signamancy into the mix, tracking becomes proportionately more effective.

Books are a form of Signamancy, because they are by their very nature information represented physically, which is what signamancy is all about. Libraries in cities normally automatically update by natural magic only when the city is built/upgraded, but if you have a Signamancer they can bring them up to date (recall that Parson said libraries have old battle records, etc. for referencing). Presumably this applies to naturally popped maps and such as well, as they are also physical representations of information, and thus Signs by nature.

Libraries in every capital, or possibly every city, naturally pop with a complete copy of the Titans' Scripture. It is identical in all instances. Because everyone is working from exactly the same base information, all religious conflicts are based upon differences of interpretation- or more likely, practical reasons being masked by religious ones.

Managing a city requires the entire turn of the unit doing it- meaning that they can use no Move and cannot engage other units until their next turn. This means, in turn, that if you raid a city and the warlord who managed it engages the raiders, even by something like lending their leadership bonus to an archery stack to make them more effective, the management bonus is lost. Obviously, this makes courtiers somewhat more important- because it lets you actually use your warlords for defense while keeping your bonus, because you can keep a noncombat unit safe.

I remember something about promoting courtiers into warlords, but can't recall the details. Unit barriers in general seem significantly more fluid than we've been treating them as, or at least that was the impression that I got. Knights apparently have enough intelligence/initiative to use their own discretion when presented with an enemy in the absence of a warlord; they are treated as self-led and can choose to engage or take other actions instead of auto-engaging. Possibly, they also provide themselves (and only themselves) with a leadership-type bonus based upon level, and there might be some kind of entourage bonus if they're stacked with a warlord; details are sketchy and explicitly requiring more thought from the Titans before being nailed down, but it's something for us to think about and come to our own conclusion on in our games, of course.

I am probably forgetting a few things. The conversation sort of drifted around, and I kept pulling back to allow for commerce. Forgot to ask about upkeep on caster-created units, unfortunately. Perhaps next year.
Exate
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:43 am

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Sir Shadow » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:56 pm

We've known for a while that Farms are actual hex-types, though it's interesting to see that mines are as well. The rules of these games are a departure from that point of canon.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
User avatar
Sir Shadow
 
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:53 am
Location: When you reach the border of hell, turn right. Can't miss me.

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:02 pm

Oooooh very interesting! Thanks for this Exate, it's very helpful. Unfortunately it makes a bit more work for Titans when it comes to resource points, but it's great info all the same. It will mean we have to "place" these sites on the map, and they should be buffed in income accordingly given their apparent rareness.
Shadow is right, although I think how Kaed and I had interpreted it up until now was that once Resource Points were constructed, they remained permanent for that city. Meaning even if it was razed and rebuilt by another side, those resource points would remain in place.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:52 pm

I've known the setup we have with resource points was inaccurate for a long time, but lacking something better, I never really addressed it.

I'm glad to have some clarification, though I'm not sure how we can modify the game as set up right now..
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
Kaed
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 4:28 am

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:02 pm

It would require some tweaking but I think we could pull it off. Lumbermills might not exist at all, so we could do away with them going forward. Those already in place are just rare blessings that make the cities who have them that much more valuable.

As for Farms and Mines, we still allow them to be built, but instead of by Commanders, they're built by units with the Builder special, that can be the Natural-mancy that Rob mentions. And in order for the point to produce income, it has to be manned by such units, and we make it's income scale based on how many are manning it.

Finally, we allow Flavor Points to be used for building Farms only, but only at level 1. Once a farm is built in that way, it stays until razed, even if the city changes hands or becomes rebuilt, which is a close analogy for Farms in the comic. And the Titans can also sprinkle some Farm Sites across the map if they wish.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:17 pm

I might not have communicated this terribly well in my first post, but farms as in farm sites don't require anyone to work them. This is distinct from the farming special, which allows a unit with the special to work any hex of the appropriate terrain type (presumably plains, mostly) to produce rations. The two are only related in that they both produce rations with the same kind of natural magics, and in that farming special units are required to rebuild a razed site (possibly also to upgrade its levels so that it goes from subsistence farm level to factory farm level, but perhaps not? Unspecified). The Farming special should be added to our build listings; personally, I'd say that eliminating the Surveyor special and replacing it with the Farming special in all units that currently possess it would be a functional patch on this.

Mines don't exist as "sites", at least in the sense of having production mechanics inherent to the hex. The digging special and the fact that units which possess it can take a mine action is all that there is. The probability of success from a mine action is presumably based upon some interaction of the hex's native stats (likely a wealth value which is some cases will be zero, reflecting that there's nothing to mine there), the type of unit mining, its level, any other applicable specials, etc. Remember that the digger special is what is used by some infantry units to break through walls, as we saw in the prologue with Wanda's uncroaked diggers. Because of this, the way we model them shouldn't reflect the Builder special all- in fact, I'm not sure that special should even exist as a thing. What we need to do is properly model digger infantry types in our build listings and start letting them be popped and act as the city assault troopers/income-producers combo that they're meant to be.

Actually, I think that our whole infantry modeling system could use a revision/update, because it's had some holes in it for a while and this only makes them more apparent. I'll think on it and maybe come up with something soonish.

It did come up that the ways to get your upkeep paid are basically:
- City sites can be turned into cities, which produce shmuckers.
- Farm sites can be turned into farms, which produce rations.
- The digging special lets you mine, which can produce gems, which can be converted to shmuckers.
- The farming special lets you farm, which produces rations.
- Hunting (or harvesting- basically, killing units) can produce rations.
- Foraging can produce rations.

Anything other than these fell into the "probably doesn't exist but I'm not saying anything definitive and I might be forgetting something" category, as I recall from our conversation. So while in-game we can probably come up with other means of survival, it would be best to stick to these or adaptions thereof- call fishing a large-scale form of hunting, or instead of lumber mills we have orchards that count as farms, etc.

Given the amount of economics and planning that revolves around the current "build resource point" mechanics, I'm not sure that altering them as drastically as would be necessary to achieve comic-accuracy is desirable at this point; some serious retconjuration would have to happen in-game to pull that off. We're already making farms produce income instead of purely providing rations, which is a serious departure from the comic; perhaps it would be best to let this slide and come up with a more accurate ruleset for next time, when we should have farm sites positioned around the map just like city sites and not have resource points at all.
Exate
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:43 am

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:41 pm

Yeah, I understood what you were saying Exate, and agree that final rules on the subject should be more along those lines. But we also have to recognize that we're in the middle of a game and such a fundamental change could be disproportionately detrimental to some people, so what I was suggesting was something akin to a happy medium that moves us closer to the comic without having negative effects. Or yes, we could leave things entirely as is to avoid creating any hiccups at all.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:36 am

I will actually be interested to see what we do about this as I was about to start working on some more resource points of my own, so if rules will change and I need to pop some diggers/locate a farm site. Being a Hylian side, diggers would be easy for me to write up thanks to the one-dimensional races of skyward sword.
With the dawning of each new day, my evil machinations inch me closer to world domination. And also breakfast.
User avatar
Lord of Monies
 
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:03 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:56 am

It seems that Natural Allies seem to be a big source of digging, rather than proper units. Think about the sides we know a lot about

GK: gobwin allies
Jetstone: marbit allies
FAQ: small, mercenary side
Charlescomm: small, mercenary side
Goodminton: no known diggers, but also known to be a "poor" side
Transylvito: no known diggers, source of income unknown

The only "large", wealthy side we have really seen that we can be pretty sure doesn't have digger allies is Transylvito.
GWvsJohn
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:52 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:13 am

GWvsJohn wrote:It seems that Natural Allies seem to be a big source of digging, rather than proper units. Think about the sides we know a lot about

...
While I agree with your first sentence here, I don't know that the points you made following support it terribly well. Let's see if I can throw some logic at it.

Goodminton and Haffaton both fielded units with the digging special in this update. There are also standard infantry units of the Royal Crown Coalition seen acting as diggers here, in Book 1. While it's true that Gobwin Knob and Jetstone both seem to have relied heavily upon their natural allies for the digging special, these precedents imply to me that any side can pop diggers as one of the standard infantry types.

My guess would be that using natural allies for diggers when possible is preferred because of the pop mechanics. Specifically, natural allies pop units by converting shmuckers to units in a single turn, while standard sides pop units by waiting for their cities to do so. This means that if you have the money, it's tough to beat natural allies for "I need an army, and I need it NOW!" functionality. Since units with the digging special have an expected return on their investment- that is, if you set them to mining on average it will take them X turns to pay for the cost of their popping and upkeep up to that point, after which they're producing profit- popping them in numbers as large as you can afford would be economically preferable in any situation where you can give them enough peaceful turns mining that they can break even and then start funneling you shmuckers.

Sides which don't have access to natural allies with the digging special have to spend valuable city-turns popping those diggers, and thus can't do so in large numbers without a substantial opportunity cost. This probably makes the mass popping of diggers impractical, and leaves them being popped in only modest numbers, primarily for tactical rather than economic purposes- siege work or tunnel ambushes, as we've seen.
Exate
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:43 am

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:34 pm

Tommy makes specific mention of how much diggers cost. Using Men as diggers might not be cost effective. Hence natural allies make the best miners. Like I said.
GWvsJohn
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:52 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Sir Shadow » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:52 am

Just saying, but he says they're 'valuable' that doesn't necessarily mean they're expensive or anything. They're probably just annoying to pop because you usually have to pop them with siege according to his explanation.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
User avatar
Sir Shadow
 
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:53 am
Location: When you reach the border of hell, turn right. Can't miss me.

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:09 pm

Kaed, how's things? Something persistently drawing your attention away from the eternal wars of Erf, perhaps?

I was looking forward to the next turn or three, you know. Admittedly, I'm generally looking forward to the next turn or three simply due to desire to see how my plans shake out, but even so. It would be nice to get things rolling again.
Exate
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:43 am

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:00 pm

Errata topic!

Dove's upkeep is 75, which is probably about what a high level infantry unit would cost. We've been overpricing our casters, and presumably, warlords!

More data is needed but this update changes a lot~

Also I want a carnymancer now
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
Kaed
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 4:28 am

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:36 pm

Eh, for a while it has seemed like Upkeep and Food are not one in the same. Just cus her Upkeep is low, feeding her may still be pricey. Since we don't really track Rations in the game, a unit's upkeep both pays their value and pops food for them. So the update kinda tells us that the value is actually lower, but then we'd just lower everything. Our upkeep rules (and income for that matter) are apparently just inflated, but probably still proportionately correct.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:28 am

All casters and units are free now, gg everyone
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
Kaed
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 4:28 am

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:23 pm

I miss this game :C 0beron is the only one still around though :(
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
Kaed
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 4:28 am

PreviousNext

Return to Your Games

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest