Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Lamech » Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:10 pm

drachefly wrote:You don't need to do anything complicated like suggestions. Just take the rulers hostage.
That is rude, and may provoke disloyalty among their soldiers. Plus it creates a single failure point for your empire if you gather them all in one place. Anyway, on the non-control side, you provide the rulers with a high level guard of knights and a warlord or two to ensure their safety and and well being. Plus a handful of courtiers to ensure their creature comforts are met and to provide helpful advice. New rulers who don't have a good capital can be protected in one of your bunker cities.

Its like taking them hostage, but without the evil and rudeness.
Also as gobe points out a number of provisions may be required in the indefinite alliance contract. All quite reasonable for all the assistance you are being given. :)
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby awwx » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:04 pm

Still so sad that the beautiful artwork is covered up by the distracting captions :cry:

I love the format, the combination of the voice over and the synchronized panning / zoom over the scene is quite wonderful. But ruined for me by the captions duplicating the voice over. I can't see words without reading them, but I read faster than the voice over, so it's like hearing music played with an ugly echo. :(
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Lilwik » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:13 pm

awwx wrote:But ruined for me by the captions duplicating the voice over. I can't see words without reading them, but I read faster than the voice over, so it's like hearing music played with an ugly echo.
I never thought about that until you mentioned it, but I have to agree. Fortunately I can see words without reading them, and I always do exactly that when I watch the videos, so it's not a problem for me, but since there's no use in reading the captions it would be better to not have the captions. If anyone wants to read the text they can just scroll down.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Kreistor » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:54 pm

balder wrote:
No one in particular wrote:What's the verdict on putting info from the bonus pages on the wiki?

And if it's okay, would someone with the books chip in on updating the wiki?

[edit] To clarify, I'm not asking for full page scans, detailed summaries or transcriptions of the bonus pages, just, you know. Naming names. Adding facts. None of the meat, just the bones, y'know?


At this point, I'll say transcription is okay. Please don't upload the images.


Added to Word of the Titans on Wiki.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Zeku » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:29 pm

wikis tend to be maintained by borderline autists or 'true believers,' and these are both types of people that can be "depended on," regardless of the obstacles

I don't think that suggesting wiki editing or contributing is a good idea, because this will attract the wrong kind of flies

just let nature work
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby drachefly » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:22 am

Lamech wrote:
drachefly wrote:You don't need to do anything complicated like suggestions. Just take the rulers hostage.
That is rude, and may provoke disloyalty among their soldiers.


A) You don't need to be mean about it. They don't need to be locked up, just under your guard at all times.

B) Heaven forfend an empire did something mean. That would be unprecedented.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Jabberwocky » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:28 am

drachefly wrote:A) You don't need to be mean about it. They don't need to be locked up, just under your guard at all times.

B) Heaven forfend an empire did something mean. That would be unprecedented.


An empire tends to survive longer if they exercise a modicum of diplomacy. I, personally, would honor subject principalities by stationing an elite honor guard at their capitals(purely for their protection, of course) and happily taking their heirs to level in combat as field commanders(of forces with few soldiers from their own sides). And probably give my subject rulers a vote in matters. Though of course the signed perpetual Alliance contracts would be written so that their votes meant crap and left with me with all executive and judicial power.

Of course, it'd be interesting to see how one would set up an empire within the rules of Erfworld for maximum efficiency.
Perpetual Alliance contracts, probably written by a linked Thinkamancy/Carnymancy pair. That'd probably make sure that every loophole was /my/ loophole.
The 'Empire' side at the center, surrounded by bread basket sides(pop harvestable heavies, have troops focusing on farm/fishing/foraging/mining/ect).
A ring of martial sides surrounding the Empire for protection.
Size limits to keep them just below the diminishing schmuckers point.
A whole swarm of casters: Florists for extra farming mojo, Dirtamancers for their dirty magic, moneymancers to cookthe books, thinkamancers for communications, turnamancers for more efficient popping and self propelled vehicles, Data-a-Mancers to catch incipient treachery and help with the diplomacy angle, hat mages to mass produce hats, dollamancers to make weapons for both personal usage and export.
A solid system for trading with other sides(If you fight, we'll call in your mortgages. And incidentally that's my pike you're pointing at me. I paid for that shield you're holding. And take my helmet off when you speak to me, you horrible little debtor.)
A mass transit system, preferably underground(I am going to hold on to this idea until the end of time, Titan's boop it in its booping ear hole)

It'd probably work best with a bunch of sides ruled by casters, really.

What else would you need?
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Mindless Automaton » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:38 am

Jabberwocky wrote:Parson attuned to the Dish?

...

He'd have his own personal Tri-mancer link. Thinkamancy + Mathmancy(bracer) + Whatever the boop he is.


Now wouldn't that be educational?


The Arken Spoon will run off with it before he has a chance!
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Jabberwocky » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:25 pm

Mindless Automaton wrote:The Arken Spoon will run off with it before he has a chance!


Now what powers would a theoretical Arkenspoon have? I'm hoping for 'Summon Endless Pudding', myself
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:02 pm

Date-a-mancy, for a +5 artifact bonus when spooning.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Lipkin » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:40 am

And presuming it's a silver spoon, it would have moneymancy capabilities.

And probably an ability to free the attuned holder from captivity using the key phrase "Rita Hayworth!"
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Oberon » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:32 pm

gobe wrote:There seems to be a missing link though: how to ensure loyalty without, you know, a Loyalty stat (or Duty)? I think the answer is Contracts!

Contracts can be abused to no end as a game mechanic (Hi Charlie!) and I believe they can be binding either to a side or an individual. If you bind a whole side to your Empire, perhaps requiring some clever wording to avoid all sorts of pitfalls later, then you're in business.
It's still a bit vague. It appears that Wanda and Jack were bound 'unto death' to not speak of some matters concerning Charlie. But Bea apparently bound her casters to only work for noble sides, and yet we have Jeftichew clearly working, if not for Charlie (a non-noble ruler), then at least with Charlie. And if it's just with Charlie, then what's in it for Jeftichew? Also, the penalties for breaking a contract need more exploration. A contract seems very like an alliance, and we know that alliances can be broken. We also know that penalty clauses can be placed upon both contracts or alliances, causing payouts of shmuckers and possibly other penalties. But what penalties can be placed upon a mere unit? They have no shmuckers to pay out, except for a very limited purse. And a unit which isn't a mercenary could empty its purse to break a contract with little real impact on the unit. So why couldn't Wanda or Jack simply break their contract with Charlie? What penalty clause could he possibly place upon their contract which would ensure that it would remain unbroken until their deaths?
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:35 pm

Well we know contracts can be given penalty clauses, so perhaps Bea's simply had no penalty. Also, even more obvious answer, JoJo is a Carny, if any caster and find a loophole or directly cheat their way out of a contract, that'd be it.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Mikalyaran » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:20 pm

Oberon wrote:
gobe wrote:There seems to be a missing link though: how to ensure loyalty without, you know, a Loyalty stat (or Duty)? I think the answer is Contracts!

Contracts can be abused to no end as a game mechanic (Hi Charlie!) and I believe they can be binding either to a side or an individual. If you bind a whole side to your Empire, perhaps requiring some clever wording to avoid all sorts of pitfalls later, then you're in business.
It's still a bit vague. It appears that Wanda and Jack were bound 'unto death' to not speak of some matters concerning Charlie. But Bea apparently bound her casters to only work for noble sides, and yet we have Jeftichew clearly working, if not for Charlie (a non-noble ruler), then at least with Charlie. And if it's just with Charlie, then what's in it for Jeftichew? Also, the penalties for breaking a contract need more exploration. A contract seems very like an alliance, and we know that alliances can be broken. We also know that penalty clauses can be placed upon both contracts or alliances, causing payouts of shmuckers and possibly other penalties. But what penalties can be placed upon a mere unit? They have no shmuckers to pay out, except for a very limited purse. And a unit which isn't a mercenary could empty its purse to break a contract with little real impact on the unit. So why couldn't Wanda or Jack simply break their contract with Charlie? What penalty clause could he possibly place upon their contract which would ensure that it would remain unbroken until their deaths?



The contracts must have a magical component to there binding and enforcement. A schmucker penalty would be pointless unless natural moneymancy withdrew the penalty automagically and deposited in the correct sides accounts. But, why couldn't you build a contract which simply made them literally unable to speak about it or unable to break alliance? They just simply cannot do it. Normally no side or individual would agree to such a thing The trick is how much leverage do you have on the side/individual you are making the contract with (Hi Charlie!)? With magical bindings and the right leverage...well...Charlie gets away with a lot of shit by being in the right place at the right time with the right leverage.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Lipkin » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:37 am

Jojo is working for Charlie, so either the vow doesn't matter, Jojo found a way to break it, or Charlie is a royal.

Prince Charles anyone?
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby YesNinja » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:02 am

Wait, were the caster contracted to only work for Royal sides? I was under the impression that Queen Bea had just told them to only work for royal sides, just before she died. Not contracted them or anything.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Jabberwocky » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:04 am

YesNinja wrote:Wait, were the caster contracted to only work for Royal sides? I was under the impression that Queen Bea had just told them to only work for royal sides, just before she died. Not contracted them or anything.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure she just told them/made them promise rather than contracted them.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby wih » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:14 am

The wording is: I made them pledge only to work for Royal sides. I always took that as binding, like a contract or a pinky swear. Whether it is or isn't is not exactly clear, but that's the wording.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Oberon » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:35 am

Mikalyaran wrote:But, why couldn't you build a contract which simply made them literally unable to speak about it or unable to break alliance? They just simply cannot do it.
I said why: Because alliances can be broken, and that's as close a thing to a contract that we know much of anything about. Close enough that they are probably just different aspects of the same thing. So go ahead and make a contract "which simply made them literally unable to speak about it or unable to break alliance", since we know that you can break alliance, they just do. The only thing which should be able to be enforced is a penalty clause, so I'm looking for one which makes sense from the point of view of a unit rather than a side. Slap a 5 million shmucker penalty clause on a contract with a side and breaking it can simply end them due to inability to pay upkeep. But what can so bind a unit?
Jabberwocky wrote:
YesNinja wrote:Wait, were the caster contracted to only work for Royal sides? I was under the impression that Queen Bea had just told them to only work for royal sides, just before she died. Not contracted them or anything.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure she just told them/made them promise rather than contracted them.
I agree with Wih here: "Made them promise" isn't functionally different from a contract. Or at least, it doesn't have to be.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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