What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Speculation, discoveries, complaints, accusations, praise, and all other Erfworld discussion.

Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:57 pm

Everything else I would dismiss as signs of struggling, but the frozen cast of Hoboken is a good catch, that proves it for me.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:07 pm

No one in particular wrote:A bit of a digression, but I just want to make sure you keep your terms clear here; most of what you're describing is Flower Power, not Hippiemancy. Hippiemancy is a class, and contains the disciplines of Flower Power (Erf), Signamancy (Fate) and Date-a-mancy (Numbers).
True, but all three disciplines are in the same class and so they should be strongly connected somehow. They are all disciplines of Life+Matter, so my reasoning about Flower Power ought to apply somehow to all three. Date-a-mancy is the magic of personal relationships so the connection to emotions seems clear. I can only suspect that the same applies to Signamancy somehow, but it's not clear how. Even with that difficulty, it's no surprise that the Erf-axis discipline of Hippiemancy would be the most direct and obvious, because it seems to be that way for the Erf-axis discipline in every other class.

I agree that Time Out might possibly just be paralysis, but it doesn't look like paralysis and I'm not going to assume that it's Hippiemancy just because Janis is casting it. They really should fall over if it were just paralysis. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that it is Flower Power or Turnamancy, but I've still got to lean toward Turnamancy.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby drachefly » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:13 am

Note that the recycling symbol may be highly hippy, but it's also a bunch of arrows pointing in a circle. Sounds intersectional with turnamancy.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:27 am

No one in particular wrote:From what we've seen, there's actually a lot of overlap between the disciplines in Erfworld.
[list][*]Dollamancers & Dirtamancers can both make golems (plush vs hard rock)

I even made a whole thread about this!
Lilwik wrote:the connection to emotions seems clear. I can only suspect that the same applies to Signamancy somehow, but it's not clear how.

Really? Seems rather obvious. Or maybe?

Lilwik wrote:Even with that difficulty, it's no surprise that the Erf-axis discipline of Hippiemancy would be the most direct and obvious, because it seems to be that way for the Erf-axis discipline in every other class.
Ehhh? We don't have any examples for you to be saying that, do we? I mean, some one was chucking acid at people above Spacerock. What is the difference in subtlety between the different Stuffamancies again? Keeping in mind we've only seen like, 2 Ditto spells and no Change yet. For all we know Change is nuclear radiation magic or something.

Lilwik wrote:I agree that Time Out might possibly just be paralysis, but it doesn't look like paralysis and I'm not going to assume that it's Hippiemancy just because Janis is casting it. They really should fall over if it were just paralysis. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that it is Flower Power or Turnamancy, but I've still got to lean toward Turnamancy.
Meh, We have already seen Flower Power mess with time via flaking plus Jillians internal questioning of what time even is man. And real life hippies talk about time being, like, and illusion man. Which is the sort of joke Rob would make.
drachefly wrote:Note that the recycling symbol may be highly hippy, but it's also a bunch of arrows pointing in a circle. Sounds intersectional with turnamancy.
Maybe casters who know multiple magics can combine spells without links?
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby No one in particular » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:52 am

Shai_hulud wrote:
No one in particular wrote:From what we've seen, there's actually a lot of overlap between the disciplines in Erfworld.
Dollamancers & Dirtamancers can both make golems (plush vs hard rock)

I even made a whole thread about this!

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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby MadZuri » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:57 am

I agree with No one in particular here (doesn't that sound odd?). Also, Jojo is standing in the same spot pointing in the same direction. Yeah, I have no doubt that Flower Power is being used here. The real question is how. Is she using Erf element? (stomping the Erf where green mist arises, implying a paralysis poison) Or is she using the Life element? (implying she literally paused their Life) Or is she delaying their Fate by a few minutes? Without control of Motion, stopping motion seems like a very difficult task. This should attest to her mastery of Hippymancy.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:59 am

No one in particular wrote::b

Are you saying you love me? :|
MadZuri wrote:Without control of Motion, stopping motion seems like a very difficult task. This should attest to her mastery of Hippymancy.

We vibrate at higher frequencies
Welcome to our world and intro to
Fall into a space
Where there is no thoughts
Just moments captured
Here we go

We're on a mission across the stars
Light through dark
Blue gold, shine, fly, seated at the opposite
So you can see there is no time
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby MadZuri » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:14 am

Blackalicious wrote:We vibrate at higher frequencies
Welcome to our world and intro to
Fall into a space
Where there is no thoughts
Just moments captured
Here we go
We're on a mission across the stars
Light through dark
Blue gold, shine, fly, seated at the opposite
So you can see there is no time

Really? World of Vibrations? Thanks, I think. That took a bit of research.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:17 am

Shai_hulud wrote:What is the difference in subtlety between the different Stuffamancies again? Keeping in mind we've only seen like, 2 Ditto spells and no Change yet.
We don't know Changemancy, but I think we know pretty well that Dittomancy is copying things. To me it seems similar to Foolamancy which is also Numbers magic: you analyze a thing, see how it is formed, and then magically make another. It is elegant and precise magic, while Dirtamancy is shoving dirt around, building huge structures, and generally far more direct. Just compare Lloyd and Joe to see which discipline is more subtle.

Then look at Turnamancy and Dollamancy. While Dollamancers are constructing elegant creatures and mechanisms, Turnamancers are magically blasting things into high gear and forcing people to change sides.

Surely there is no doubt about which of Lookamancy, Thinkamancy, and Foolamancy is least subtle. Thinkamancy especially is full of subtlety in the wide variety of thinkagrams. Foolamancy is king of subtlety in its many ways of tricking people. Lookamancy, on the other hand, seems to be little more than a magical telescope.

I think it goes without saying that Shockmancy is the least subtle of all disciples of magic across all classes.

Hat Magic lets people pull things out of hats, a perfectly straight-forward and obvious thing when you compare it to whatever strange stuff was going on with Sylvia because of Carnymancy, and however Rhyme-o-mancy works, it is clearly a very delicate and artistic magic.

As for Clevermancy, all three disciplines seem quite subtle. I'm going to guess that Luckamancy is less subtle than the others based on the pattern, but we don't really know enough about any of them to be sure.

Shai_hulud wrote:Meh, We have already seen Flower Power mess with time via flaking plus Jillians internal questioning of what time even is man. And real life hippies talk about time being, like, and illusion man.
That's messing with people's perception of time, not making things freeze in place. These are two very different things.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:41 am

MadZuri wrote:Really? World of Vibrations? Thanks, I think. That took a bit of research.
Actually 2 different songs.
Lilwik wrote:Then look at Turnamancy and Dollamancy. While Dollamancers are constructing elegant creatures and mechanisms, Turnamancers are magically blasting things into high gear and forcing people to change sides.
Turnamancers can subtly alter peoples sense of loyalty and obedience. Ace makes blaster cannons and hand grenades to blow things up, hardly subtle. It's easy to take examples out of context to support a preexisting premise.

Lilwik wrote: Lookamancy, on the other hand, seems to be little more than a magical telescope.
We've seen, what, 2, 3 spells? Only one really. They can see far, blind enemies, and see other realities/universes when linked. For all we know they can see like this. Plus, so far 2 out of 3 eyemancies have been mind magic, but lookamancy has yet to display (besides Wanda and the summoning spell maybe) any mental aspects? Until we see more of what it can do, I'm not really convinced.

Lilwik wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:Meh, We have already seen Flower Power mess with time via flaking plus Jillians internal questioning of what time even is man. And real life hippies talk about time being, like, and illusion man.
That's messing with people's perception of time, not making things freeze in place. These are two very different things.
Are we sure there is even a difference? I mean, turnamancy messes with peoples minds maybe. And things can cross hex boundaries off turn when not attacking. Maybe time/turns are partly mental in their world?No nevermind, otherwise production turn reductions wouldn't work. Turns are concrete chunks/units even if total actions taken inside of one is relative.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:45 am

Shai_hulud wrote:Turnamancers can subtly alter peoples sense of loyalty and obedience.
Changing sides is not a subtle thing in Erfworld. There are no double-agents. You're either on a side or you're not. On the other hand, I'm not saying that a skilled Turnamancer isn't capable of subtlety, only that Turnamancy on average is less subtle than Dollamancy.

Shai_hulud wrote:Ace makes blaster cannons and hand grenades to blow things up, hardly subtle.
A gun is not a subtle instrument. It is loud and violent, but that's beside the point because we're not talking about guns; we're talking about the magic that makes the guns. Think about taking apart a gun and examining all of its pieces and all of the thought and craftsmanship that must go in to building a gun.

Shai_hulud wrote:Until we see more of what it can do, I'm not really convinced.
I agree that we don't have enough solid information about Lookamancy to call their lack of subtlety fact. Misty died far too soon, but what we have seen of them doesn't suggest great depths of hidden subtlety. Combining that with the fact that most disciplines on the Erf axis are the least subtle of their class, I feel pretty confident.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:24 am

Lilwik wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:Turnamancers can subtly alter peoples sense of loyalty and obedience.
Changing sides is not a subtle thing in Erfworld. There are no double-agents. You're either on a side or you're not. On the other hand, I'm not saying that a skilled Turnamancer isn't capable of subtlety, only that Turnamancy on average is less subtle than Dollamancy.
Are you saying peoples minds have not shown depths and subtlety in the comic so far? Turning has so far been a complex mental affair involving beliefs and thoughts. No less subtle than thinkamancy mind control spell would be. You're choosing to claim it's a brute force approach because that supports your ideas, not because we've ever seen how a turnamancy spell "works".

Lilwik wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:Ace makes blaster cannons and hand grenades to blow things up, hardly subtle.
A gun is not a subtle instrument. It is loud and violent, but that's beside the point because we're not talking about guns; we're talking about the magic that makes the guns. Think about taking apart a gun and examining all of its pieces and all of the thought and craftsmanship that must go in to building a gun.
Is a guns complexity and craftsmanship not on display in say, complex dirtamancy and turnamancy machines? What makes a gun less overt than other complex machines, or why is a hand grenade somehow more subtle than Sizemores ability to become "grounded" through his shovel? Or his power to determine soil quality for farming? I still think you're choosing to interpret this how you want in support of your preexisting theories, rather than looking at what has been shown without bias. It seems like you're using selection bias to cherry pick evidence, y'know?
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:37 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Are you saying peoples minds have not shown depths and subtlety in the comic so far? Turning has so far been a complex mental affair involving beliefs and thoughts.
No, I only said that turning is like flipping a light-switch. The rest of their minds are just like Stupidworld minds. It's really not clear how complex human minds are classified into simplistic terms of being on a side or not on a side, but they are. And when Wanda tried to turn Jillian it was done with a Turnamancy item that worked through brutal torture, not subtlety.

Shai_hulud wrote:No less subtle than thinkamancy mind control spell would be.
I never said that Turnamancy was less subtle than Thinkamancy. I said that Turnamancy is less subtle than Dollamancy.

Shai_hulud wrote:Is a gun's complexity and craftsmanship not on display in say, complex dirtamancy and turnamancy machines?
I don't think I'm aware of any Dirtamancy machines, at least none with any serious amount of moving parts. Naturally a large and complex building is an elegant thing, but I'm not saying that Dirtamancy is less subtle than Dollamancy. I'm saying that Dirtamancy is less subtle than Dittomancy.

Shai_hulud wrote:What makes a gun less overt than other complex machines?
I guess a gun isn't less overt than other complex machines, but that's beside the point since all complex machines are made by Dollamancy. Turnamancy makes vehicles that just magically go. We never actually saw much detail of the paddlewheel barge, but surely you'd agree that if it had many moving parts that would be Turnamancy bordering onto Dollamancy, only intricate to the degree that it borrows from its sister discipline. I expect that the wheel of the paddlewheel was actually its only moving part.

Shai_hulud wrote:I still think you're choosing to interpret this how you want in support of your preexisting theories, rather than looking at what has been shown without bias.
But even if Erf's lack of subtlety is debatable in certain classes, surely you must see that in other classes it's clear. This isn't just a theory about Spookism and Stuffamancy; it's a pattern formed across almost all classes of magic, with the evidence for the simplicity of each Erf discipline providing support for all the others. Don't deny that some sort of pattern exists, because being on the Erf axis must mean something. What exactly each axis means is not clear, and I'm sure there's more to it than just simplicity, but I think this is part of it.

I never even mentioned Hocus Pocus, but what would you guess that Findamancy does? I bet that if you want something, it gives you the location, assisting in mining, promoting the right units, and making it impossible for enemy scouts to hide. What a simple and straight-forwardly useful ability that would be when compared to the mind-bending trouble you get from having a Predictamancer on your team. And you should have a degree in statistics to make proper use of a Mathamancer.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby ftl » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:51 pm

Predictamancy is pretty straightforward.

A Predictamancer says something will happen. Therefore, that thing in the future will happen.

It's dealing with it that's hard. But the actual magic effect is really, really simple. Predictamancer Predicts X. Thus, X will happen, no matter what. Simple.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:13 pm

Lilwik wrote:No, I only said that turning is like flipping a light-switch. The rest of their minds are just like Stupidworld minds. It's really not clear how complex human minds are classified into simplistic terms of being on a side or not on a side, but they are.
Isn't this kind of logic the exact same thing you yourself argued against? Lipkin said as such about falling and Shockamancy and you said you didn't suspect it was really that simple. What makes Turnamancy different to such a degree that the same logic can't be applied?

Lilwik wrote:And when Wanda tried to turn Jillian it was done with a Turnamancy item that worked through brutal torture, not subtlety.
But that would be an indication that Croakamancy is brutal, wouldn't it? That's what Wanda said was used to make the box. She even stated that she could do it better than the box, because she was a real Croackamancer.

Lilwik wrote:I guess a gun isn't less overt than other complex machines, but that's beside the point since all complex machines are made by Dollamancy.
Um, lolwat? Who says so? You? For all we know that thing was just a magic wand with a handle and trigger.

Lilwik wrote:Turnamancy makes vehicles that just magically go.
I'm sure you had this same argument about falling and Shockamancy with Lipkin.

Lilwik wrote:We never actually saw much detail of the paddlewheel barge, but surely you'd agree that if it had many moving parts that would be Turnamancy bordering onto Dollamancy, only intricate to the degree that it borrows from its sister discipline.
I wouldn't agree to that for a second. Also don't call me Surely.

Lilwik wrote:But even if Erf's lack of subtlety is debatable in certain classes, surely you must see that in other classes it's clear.
Seriously where are you getting this from? You can't reliably make such a sweeping claim with literally zero evidence. You were complaining about people talking madness earlier in the thread, but god damn. I mean, we have zero Changeamancy spells. For all we know they launch nuclear weapons at enemy cities! That would hardly be subtle magic. And if the pattern doesn't hold true, then it's not really a pattern, is it? Although, you would probably just claim that any Changeamancy spell that wasn't subtle was actually secret Dirtamancy all along. And again, don't call me Surely.

Lilwik wrote:Don't deny that some sort of pattern exists, because being on the Erf axis must mean something.
Yeah. No shoot Sherlock. It means Firmament magic. Right here:
This thread was being drawn up by the system of the world. Thinkamancers knew it as a "Grandiocosmic string." Its numbers were being shaped and guided by the firmament, by what magic theorists called the Erf Axis.*
Bam, right there. Erf magic is defined as having to do with something called the firmament, not lack of subtlety. You can try to claim that manipulating the firmament isn't a subtle magic, but there is no current reason to make that conclusion. Not that it will stop you I'm guessing. :|

Lilwik wrote:I never even mentioned Hocus Pocus, but what would you guess that Findamancy does?
I would guess that it Summons things. Because we've actually seen it do that.

*Bolding added for emphasis.

Back to the OP for a second. On the question of how Turnamancy can manipulate minds, this was in the latest Book 0 page:
In the thick smoke and white sunlight, in the space and time folds she limped her way through, there was a turn and a click. She remembered herself.
Maybe the "mind" has actual cartoon cogs inside it? That's the sort of silliness the setting uses for physics after all.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby ftl » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:40 pm

About Findamancy, I would actually be more general and guess that it's primarily for Finding things - summoning would fit into that, since the spell was finding a warlord from somewhers. The names are often a pretty good indicator of what the discipline can work with. Thinkamancy deals with everything to do with thinking, Turnamancy does everything to do with turns and turning. Hat Magic does stuff with hats. Dittomancy doubles things. Dittomancy doubles things.

Different discipline strech this sometimes - "Dirt"amancy has to do with more than just dirt, croakamancy is more about un-croaking than croaking. Flower Power seems to do more stuff associated with hippies (peace and love) rather than just flowers, even though Hippiemancy is the name of the class and not the discipline.

Despite that, I think the name is a much better starting point for guessing what a discipline does than its position on the periodic table of magic, which I don't think we understand at all yet. I think Lilwik's confidence that he's got a good handle on it is very much misplaced.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:54 pm

ftl wrote:Dittomancy doubles things. Dittomancy doubles things.
I luled.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby Lilwik » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:35 am

Shai_hulud wrote:Isn't this kind of logic the exact same thing you yourself argued against? Lipkin said as such about falling and Shockamancy and you said you didn't suspect it was really that simple. What makes Turnamancy different to such a degree that the same logic can't be applied?
When I say that Turnamancy is simple, I only mean that it is simpler than other disciplines in its class, but I'm sure that all disciplines of magic are quite complex. Turnamancy is just one of those things that trades subtlety for power, and with long study and practice a master Turnamancer who has vast knowledge of the complex field of Turnamancy would be enormously powerful, but not nearly as subtle as a master Dollamancer who can make the most intricate imaginable devices.

Shai_hulud wrote:But that would be an indication that Croakamancy is brutal, wouldn't it? That's what Wanda said was used to make the box. She even stated that she could do it better than the box, because she was a real Croackamancer.
No, the box is Turnamancy built with the help of a Thinkamancer, as of Book 0, Episode 54.

Shai_hulud wrote:
Lilwik wrote:I guess a gun isn't less overt than other complex machines, but that's beside the point since all complex machines are made by Dollamancy.
Um, lolwat? Who says so? You?
Yeah, I say that. Are you saying it's not true? Have you ever seen a complex machine that's not Dollamancy? If so, please cite it because it would be very interesting.

Shai_hulud wrote:Seriously where are you getting this from? You can't reliably make such a sweeping claim with literally zero evidence.
What about that time when I went through every class and pointed out how every class seems to fit the pattern? How is that not evidence? Maybe it's not strong enough evidence for you, but it's not fair to call it zero evidence.

Shai_hulud wrote:I mean, we have zero Changeamancy spells. For all we know they launch nuclear weapons at enemy cities! That would hardly be subtle magic. And if the pattern doesn't hold true, then it's not really a pattern, is it?
Are you saying you see a place where the pattern doesn't hold? The way you say that directly after talking about your fantasy about Changemancy makes it seem like the only place the pattern doesn't hold is in that version of Changemancy that you just made up now. Of course if the pattern doesn't hold then I'll abandon my theory, but I think I'll keep it until we actually see it fail and not throw it away becomes someone suggests it might possibly fail because of how Changemancy might be.

Shai_hulud wrote:
Lilwik wrote:Don't deny that some sort of pattern exists, because being on the Erf axis must mean something.
Yeah. No shoot Sherlock. It means Firmament magic.
You make it sound so obvious. Should I take that to mean that you know what firmament magic is? You seem very confident about what it means, and I would very much love to know what it means. Trying to figure out the axes of magic in Erfworld is my favorite mystery of this story, so if you know something about firmament magic, I wish you would share it.

Shai_hulud wrote:I would guess that it Summons things. Because we've actually seen it do that.
That was a scroll with a combination of several disciplines, but you're right that summoning would make sense for Findamancy to be able to do even alone. I always had a feeling that Findamancy seemed a bit underpowered if it did nothing but find things.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby ftl » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:44 am

Yeah, I say that. Are you saying it's not true? Have you ever seen a complex machine that's not Dollamancy? If so, please cite it because it would be very interesting.


A paddlewheel barge. Stated as Turnamancy.
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Re: What's the deal with Turnamancers?

Postby YesNinja » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:53 am

Not really sure how we got on the subject of the different discipline's subtleties, but I'll throw in my two cents.


I don't think that discipline's themselves are necessarily subtle or not. I think it's the casters, and more importantly, the specific spells. There are subtle and forthright spells for each discipline, as has been shown in numerous examples in the thread. The ones that that hasn't proven true for yet are the ones that we know the least about.
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