Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:54 pm

Mogster2 wrote:GK (the side) probably did go Barbarian after GK (the city) fell, but the side itself did not end.
We know from Book 0 that most of the units in the field disband when the capital is lost, with some exceptions. Wanda was ruler of Goodminton for a few seconds, then the capital was lost, and immediately her army of uncroaked disbanded except for the ones she was stacked with. I expect that if she had an heir then that heir also wouldn't have disbanded and would have kept his stack. I wonder about casters, since we know they don't disband in the Magic Kingdom when their side ends, so perhaps casters would also become barbarians in the field. I also guess that if Wanda had any cities remaining that she would have lost those cities just like she lost her army.

So I think that when the gobwins took Gobwin Knob it momentarily ended the side, Stanley lost all the troops he had with him except for his own stack, and Gobwin Knob lost all of its cities. When Sizemore says that it wasn't the end of the side, he's talking about what came next: Stanley recaptured Gobwin Knob, then immediately went out to reclaim all of Gobwin Knob's other cities. Those cities would be barbarian before Stanley arrived, but I expect they would happily turn back to Gobwin Knob as soon as Stanley arrives, even without Saline IV, especially if Stanley arrives with overwhelming force. So Gobwin Knob continues under the heir, even if it technically ceased to exist for a moment.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that it did cease to exist. In Book 0, Banhammer is king of Faq, but then Faq lost its capital to Haffaton after Banhammer fled. Banhammer didn't disband, of course, but he is also somehow still a ruler. He can still give orders to Jillian, and when Efbaum is captured and Faq has a capital again, Banhammer is still king of Faq. If Faq had ceased to exist when it lost its capital then shouldn't that mean that Banhammer is just a barbarian like any other barbarian? And then when they capture a capital, what makes Banhammer the ruler instead of Jillian or anyone else who is present? And when Olive revealed to Jillian that Faq had been conquered, Jillian knew that her father was still alive because:
Book 0, Episode 52: Jillian: "I’m not a Ruler. My father escaped, didn’t he? He finally got off his huge keister and moved!"
She seems to be saying that she's not a ruler of a side with no cities, which implies that it is possible to be a ruler of a side with no cities.

So when Banhammer finally died and Faq the city was destroyed by Stanley, Jillian didn't just become a barbarian; she became a barbarian who is also ruler of Faq and retained her ability to command any Faq units who somehow escaped disbanding. But if that's the case, then Marie at least should still be ruled by Jillian. This is quite confusing.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lipkin » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:28 pm

Being barbarian means you don't belong to a side. Being a ruler, Banhammer can never be a barbarian, only a ruler without a city. So when Faq fell, Banhammer was still ruler of Faq the side. And Marie is barbarian. Even if she didn't automatically turn due to some mechanic, she is a barbarian caster living in the MK, so she isn't under Jillian's control.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:42 pm

I don't think it's that confusing.

If the capital falls, every unit in the field that is not stacked with a Ruler or Heir disbands. All cities freeze. There seems to be some sort of MK loophole, where casters in the MK become barbarian. The Ruler and Heir and their units become Barbarians. It appears that the Ruler/Heir relationship is still maintained in terms of Duty, Loyalty, etc.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:18 am

Lipkin wrote:Being a ruler, Banhammer can never be a barbarian, only a ruler without a city.
Jillian is the most famous barbarian of all and she was ruler of Faq when she became an barbarian. Surely you don't deny that Jillian is a barbarian in Book 1, nor that Jillian was Banhammer's heir in Book 0, so when Banhammer died I can't see any options except for a ruler becoming a barbarian.

GWvsJohn wrote:There seems to be some sort of MK loophole, where casters in the MK become barbarian.
Maybe, but it makes more sense to me if casters have that loophole no matter where they are. We already have examples of units that have special status that turns them into barbarians instead of disbanding, so it's simpler to extend that status to other units rather than suppose that there are also special places. The Magic Kingdom is clearly special in some ways, but it seems no more special as a place than a caster is special as a unit.

GWvsJohn wrote:It appears that the Ruler/Heir relationship is still maintained in terms of Duty, Loyalty, etc.
Not just the Ruler/Heir relationship, Barbarian Banhammer is also able to give orders to his casters as demonstrated in Book 0, Episode 60 when Banhammer silently orders them to gather in the Wizard's Hall.

It seems that barbarian sides are real things that can have cities and rulers and almost everything that a normal side can have, but they don't have a capital and their cities are frozen. Since they stay on the same side even when they are barbarians, that probably means that when Stanley recaptured Gobwin Knob he also instantly reclaimed all of Gobwin Knob's cities.

I wonder if barbarian sides all share the same turn, or if each barbarian side has its own turn that happens to come before the turn of any nonbarbarian side.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby GWvsJohn » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:46 am

I don't really see any evidence for barbarian sides. The Casters are part of Banhammer's barbarian stack, like Jillian's gwiffons. Obvious he'd be able to order them around. The Ruler/Heir relationship is different because Banhammer can order her while she's Haffaton's prisoner.

I'm not sure on the caster/MK thing, but people seem to specifically order the casters to the MK when the side is about to fall.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:06 am

GWvsJohn wrote:I don't really see any evidence for barbarian sides.
Surely the existence of barbarian rulers is evidence for barbarian sides. Remember that Jillian thought it was important that she hadn't become a ruler when Faq was destroyed. To Jillian it meant that her father was alive, even though at that moment Jillian was already a barbarian.

GWvsJohn wrote:I'm not sure on the caster/MK thing, but people seem to specifically order the casters to the MK when the side is about to fall.
That doesn't seem like evidence of anything. Where else would casters be ordered? It would require some very special circumstances for a side that's about to be destroyed to feel the need to send a caster into the field rather than letting him escape in the Magic Kingdom or stay to defend the capital.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lipkin » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:11 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Being a ruler, Banhammer can never be a barbarian, only a ruler without a city.
Jillian is the most famous barbarian of all and she was ruler of Faq when she became an barbarian. Surely you don't deny that Jillian is a barbarian in Book 1, nor that Jillian was Banhammer's heir in Book 0, so when Banhammer died I can't see any options except for a ruler becoming a barbarian.

A barbarian is someone who doesn't belong to a side. A Ruler is someone who commands a side. You cannot be both. When Banhammer croaked, Jillian was left with no one to rule, and thus became a barbarian.

One of the caster's in Banhammer's stack could turn barbarian, which would cut ties from Faq and make them be on their own.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby GWvsJohn » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:15 am

There are only (as far as we know) two types of barbarians. Those that popped as barbarians and former heirs/rulers of destroyed sides. Based on the fact that Ansom just assumed Jillian was the former I don't see any differences in how they interact mechanically with the world.

It's been states that Rulers know they are Ruler, since they gain extra senses. Jillian knew she hadn't gained those senses and this knew her father was alive. That's why it's important.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby ftl » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:16 am

Didn't FAQ have its turn after Haffaton, even when they didn't have any cities?

Yes, http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/IPTSF_Text_62 . At dawn, Haffaton had its turn before FAQ. I think we know from somewhere else that barbarians go first though? So FAQ doesn't count as Barbarian at that time, I think.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:32 am

ftl wrote:Yes, http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/IPTSF_Text_62 . At dawn, Haffaton had its turn before FAQ. I think we know from somewhere else that barbarians go first though? So FAQ doesn't count as Barbarian at that time, I think.
That's a huge point! Does anyone remember where we learned that barbarian turns always come first in the day? Somewhere in Book 1, maybe. If we can actually prove that Faq wasn't barbarian when they came to Efbaum, then we'll need to rethink something pretty serious about what we know about who is and isn't a barbarian.

Lipkin wrote:A barbarian is someone who doesn't belong to a side. A Ruler is someone who commands a side. You cannot be both. When Banhammer croaked, Jillian was left with no one to rule, and thus became a barbarian.
Jillian had people to rule just like Banhammer did. See Book 1, Page 83, where Jillian talks about becoming a barbarian and says that she needed to find mercenary work to sustain her units. So if Banhammer did not become a barbarian and Jillian did, there has to be some other reason for the difference between them.

Assuming that you are right that a barbarian can't be a ruler, when Jillian claimed that she wasn't a ruler it must have meant that she didn't expect to become a barbarian just because Faq lost its cities. If a barbarian couldn't ever be a ruler, then not being a ruler wouldn't mean anything to a barbarian. But what makes Haffaton destroying Faq different from Stanley destroying Faq?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lipkin » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:17 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:A barbarian is someone who doesn't belong to a side. A Ruler is someone who commands a side. You cannot be both. When Banhammer croaked, Jillian was left with no one to rule, and thus became a barbarian.
Jillian had people to rule just like Banhammer did. See Book 1, Page 83, where Jillian talks about becoming a barbarian and says that she needed to find mercenary work to sustain her units. So if Banhammer did not become a barbarian and Jillian did, there has to be some other reason for the difference between them.

Assuming that you are right that a barbarian can't be a ruler, when Jillian claimed that she wasn't a ruler it must have meant that she didn't expect to become a barbarian just because Faq lost its cities. If a barbarian couldn't ever be a ruler, then not being a ruler wouldn't mean anything to a barbarian. But what makes Haffaton destroying Faq different from Stanley destroying Faq?

Units doesn't mean people. She even said she was on her own. She had to support her Gwiffons, which I don't think need to be on a side to be owned. I think a Barbarian would be able to tame a Gwiffon, Dwagon, Doombat, or other creature of beast-like intelligence, regardless of if they had a side for the creature to join. They would then just be responsible to that creature's upkeep, whether from their purse, or foraging. Pure speculation on my part, I'll admit.

Was Jillian a barbarian when Wanda informed her of Faq's fall to Haffaton?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:04 am

Lipkin wrote:Units doesn't mean people. She even said she was on her own. She had to support her Gwiffons, which I don't think need to be on a side to be owned.
That might be the case, but I don't think we've known of Jillian going out on a mercenary mission with only gwiffons while she was with Faq. She always seems to have warlords with her, at least. It's possible that she was on her way home from a mission where she was the only survivor, but that still wouldn't explain everything.

When Olive reveals that Faq has been taken, surely the natural thing for Jillian to think would be that everyone in Faq is dead, which means Jillian would have no one to rule. So even if we assume that Banhammer doesn't become a barbarian because he still has casters, Jillian should expect there is a good chance that she has become a barbarian. In spite of this, when she realizes that she's not a ruler, her conclusion is that her father has survived. Shouldn't her conclusion be that all of Faq except her is dead? Shouldn't not being a ruler be exactly what she would expect after hearing about the total destruction of Faq and everyone in it? See Book 0, Episode 52 for reference.

Lipkin wrote:Was Jillian a barbarian when Wanda informed her of Faq's fall to Haffaton?
I don't know anymore. I thought that I had the whole barbarian thing figured out, but now I can't make this make sense.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby drachefly » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:52 am

I think it's pretty clear that Barbarian is a category of side, not a side itself. Banhammer was still a leader with no one over him, and he commanded the loyalty of those under him. We would not expect any random other barbarians walking up to consider him their leader.

As for Jillian in Book 1, she never liked FAQ. She could have dropped it in the mean time.

As for Wanda's seeing things depop... did she have any warlords with her? I suspect any Commander-type unit and those stacked with one can survive the loss of the capital (though not the loss of the Overlord), not just heirs. That would explain casters surviving very neatly, without invoking a special case.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:23 am

drachefly wrote:As for Wanda's seeing things depop... did she have any warlords with her? I suspect any Commander-type unit and those stacked with one can survive the loss of the capital (though not the loss of the Overlord), not just heirs. That would explain casters surviving very neatly, without invoking a special case.
That would be very neat, but when I re-read Book 0, Episode 26 I wonder if even casters can survive in the field.

Wanda had Tommy with her. He's the only warlord mentioned and he doesn't tell us anything because he was in her stack. On the other hand she had hundreds of units in her army and surely with an army that size there was at least one warlord somewhere other than Wanda's stack, but we'll never be sure.

The thing that troubles me most is Overlord Firebaugh's note: "spent treas. to prom. you — live and avenge! love - F." The capital was under attack and doomed, so Firebaugh's last act before he dies is to promote Wanda to heir. It sounds like she wouldn't have lived if he hadn't done that, but on the other hand that might be misleading. Firebaugh couldn't take his shmuckers with him, so it would only take a whim to justify spending them. He might have promoted her as nothing more than a gesture of respect or a slim hope that Goodminton might continue somehow. Perhaps if he hadn't promoted Wanda she would have lost even the units in her own stack. When she became ruler of Goodminton it allowed her to keep her stack as the new barbarian Goodminton, while being an ordinary caster might have left her completely alone in the field. So he might be helping her live by giving her command of what is left of Goodminton rather than by preventing her from disbanding.

It provides another example of a ruler becoming a barbarian while still having units to command. This time it's uncroaked units instead of gwiffons, which seems like a step up, especially since it includes a warlord.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby drachefly » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:20 pm

Lilwik wrote:It sounds like she wouldn't have lived if he hadn't done that, but on the other hand that might be misleading.


Whoa. He did that so any units would survive at all. No overlord = everybody disbands. It was the loss of the capital we were talking about. Could non-heir commanders survive the loss of the capital?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:01 pm

drachefly wrote:Whoa. He did that so any units would survive at all. No overlord = everybody disbands.
I think I see how this works now. All barbarians are part of some side and have a barbarian ruler, but the side is usually quite small, and in their simple barbaric ways their sides can break apart easily whenever one of them feels like becoming his own ruler. When Banhammer died, Jillian became ruler and then Faq became a barbarian side. Whatever units she had with her still obeyed her and looked to her for upkeep. The exact same thing happened to Banhammer when his capital was captured. This nicely explains why Jillian is not Marie's ruler, since barbarian Jillian probably didn't feel like paying the upkeep of a caster in the Magic Kingdom, especially a Predictamancer, and therefore Jillian split Marie off to form her own barbarian side of one, with Marie as her own ruler and only subject.

I searched for the klog where we learn about barbarians. Instead I found this one: Book 1, Page 98b, Klog #12. It says that Gobwin Knob cities would freeze if Stanley dies. We have to take that to mean that cities freeze when they have no side, which I now realize is different from becoming barbarian, which suggests that barbarian cities don't freeze, and barbarians can have perfectly ordinary cities. I presume that barbarian cities are weakened by low loyalty, since any barbarian can become a ruler at any time, they would break into factions and suffer coup attempts.

Since I can't find the place where we learn that barbarian sides always go first in the natural turn order, I'm going to assume that it was incomplete information. We know that barbarian Faq's turn was after Haffaton's turn, so then let's suppose that barbarian sides usually have turns before proper sides. A side that became barbarian by losing its capital doesn't loose its place in the natural turn order, but any barbarian side that pops in the wilderness gets a turn order before all proper sides, and so do barbarian sides that split off from existing barbarian sides. For this to work, a barbarian side with an early turn needs to have its turn move to be later when it captures a capital, unless sides founded that way are so rare as to not be worth mentioning. So almost all barbarians have early turns, but while Jillian was a barbarian she still had Faq's natural turn. I wouldn't be surprised if Faq's natural turn got shuffled toward the front over time, too: Haffaton was destroyed, so Haffaton no longer has their turn before Faq, and any new sides that get founded probably have their turn after Faq.

The only thing that's not explained by this is why Jillian needed to capture a capital before becoming a queen. She was a ruler through all of Book 1 and she even ruled at least one capital city for part of a turn after Banhammer croaked. But even after Ansom learned the whole story he didn't consider her a queen. Was Banhammer not a king during his time as a barbarian in Book 0?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby ftl » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:17 pm

Lilwik wrote:I think I see how this works now. All barbarians are part of some side and have a barbarian ruler,


Well, except in the GMTTA transcribed that are being posted right now over at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6632 , we have

Mikalyaran wrote:Lady Tisha Necrosis
Side of Origin: none,


so no side for Tisha Necrosis who popped alone.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby GWvsJohn » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:20 pm

I think you're making this much more complicated than it is.

Barbarians are, well, Barbarians, no more no less. (I will have to look into the Haffaton v. Barbarian Banhammer turn order argument a bit more, since it complicates things)

If a Barbarian Commander finds a capital site, he can form a side. Remember Jillian founded a completely new side, she just decided to call it Faq again, she wasn't the Barbarian Ruler of FAQ and she didn't refound Faq.

Based on how the former members of Faq act after the city falls, clearly Duty and Loyalty carry over into Barbarianhood if your Ruler survives.

I think you're getting caught up on Jillian's use of the word Ruler. He just used an awkward phrase to say that she would have known if Banhammer croaked.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby ftl » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:43 pm

Hm. http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_93 when planning the maneuver where Jillian breaks alliance with Jetstone to move first the next day, that could be the source of the belief that barbarians go first. With all the shifting alliances there, I'm not sure Jillian isn't supposed to have her turn with Charlescomm or Transylvito or something though.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:20 pm

ftl wrote:So no side for Tisha Necrosis who popped alone.
That seems to contradict the fact that Jillian as a lone barbarian would think of herself as a ruler. Surely every ruler needs a side, even if it is only a side of one, but perhaps a side of one has no name and is listed as "none" for that reason. Or perhaps "feral" is a distinct type of barbarian that really isn't part of a side and isn't a ruler, and has no ability to use shmuckers to pop units to assist her the way that barbarian rulers can. Maybe all casters who survived the destruction of their side in the Magic Kingdom are that type.

GWvsJohn wrote:Remember Jillian founded a completely new side, she just decided to call it Faq again, she wasn't the Barbarian Ruler of FAQ and she didn't refound Faq.
I don't remember that. It was an excellent chance to change Faq's name, and Jillian may have been wandering on her own for so long that she no longer considered her side to have a name, but as for whether the new side was still technically the same side as the original Faq, that was never made clear. The only real evidence we have is the fact that when Stanley lost Saline IV and his capital, the side of Gobwin Knob didn't end. If Gobwin Knob didn't end, why should Faq have ended?

GWvsJohn wrote:I think you're getting caught up on Jillian's use of the word Ruler. He just used an awkward phrase to say that she would have known if Banhammer croaked.
So you're going to ignore it? Each of us has that choice: to either read the story and use it to learn about Erfworld or ignore the story and learn nothing.

ftl wrote:Book 1, Page 93 when planning the maneuver where Jillian breaks alliance with Jetstone to move first the next day, that could be the source of the belief that barbarians go first. With all the shifting alliances there, I'm not sure Jillian isn't supposed to have her turn with Charlescomm or Transylvito or something though.
It seems pretty clear that Jillian was going to ally with Transylvito, so all that tells us is that both Jillian and Transylvito have their natural turn before Gobwin Knob's natural turn.
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