Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Jinren » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:37 am

Lilwik wrote:Surely the natural explanation would be that Judy came from Stupidworld over a hundred years before Parson's time, and returned in time to inspire the novel, meaning that Erfworld magic is capable of time travel within Stupidworld.


Or that time streams in this setting naturally follow Narnia-rules or something similar and the amount of Erf time in between Judy and Parson's visits is irrelevant as long as they don't actually overlap.

Or that the summon-perfect-warlord spell isn't subject to the passage of time and will consider the entire lifespan of a universe as potential targets, which seems in line with the description.

Or that Erf magic is subject to rules, but (as ever) Titanic magic is not, and Judy was taken from the 19th century, time passed, but the Arkenshoes were able to do what normal magic couldn't and send her back there because Tools don't care for consistency, they are world editors.

Lot of options here.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:45 am

Following up on a point Lilwik made...the SPW spell could summon from anywhere in existence, and fiction is treated as reality....what if "Judy" actually IS Dorthy? Then Parson's confusion would make sense. He seems to think that Judy couldn't have actually come from his world, perhaps because the timing is off. Her return to his world could have come after the Wizard of Oz was already written, after all Judy Garland only played Dorthy in the movie, so she came long after the book had been written.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby WarFAN » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:51 am

It seems that Jack is as surprised as me about Charlie´s being so protective about that unimportant gossips of his background...
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby CorrTerek » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:07 am

Lilwik wrote:On the other hand, whether she is from Stupidworld or not, Erfworld has still somehow recreated the Wizard of Oz decades after it was written as a work of fiction, and that coincidence is no more or less strange wherever Judy came from or disappeared to. Surely the natural explanation would be that Judy came from Stupidworld over a hundred years before Parson's time, and returned in time to inspire the novel, meaning that Erfworld magic is capable of time travel within Stupidworld. Even so, Parson can't be thinking that explanation because then it wouldn't be "weird" for Judy to be from Kansas.


Exactly. And since we know Parson's a clever guy, I just really want to know what he's thinking about this because what train of thought we can see from the comic doesn't necessarily make sense. Maybe he's trying to avoid thinking about it because he likes it in Erfworld and doesn't want to think about the possibility of going home? I'm just tossing out ideas here.

At any rate, he seems to have dismissed that for the more immediate concern of finding out things of tactical value about Charlie. Which is probably the practical thing to do anyway.

I do like that Jack hated that he had to keep the possibility that Parson could return home a secret.

Regarding public domain characters that Parson could use, Captain Nemo and Sherlock Holmes are two big ones. Great minds, those two. For warriors, you have both John Carter and Tarzan (neither of whom has truly been done justice in film, sadly) as well as King Arthur. For casters, Merlin stands out.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby mortissimus » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:28 am

Lilwik wrote:
mortissimus wrote:I think Parson noting that she is not form his world is just Robs way of putting to rest a topic of much confusion.
What confusion are you talking about? There's a possibility that Judy is from Stupidworld and a possibility that she's from some other Kansas, but as far as I'm aware those possibilities weren't confusing in any way. At least they were nowhere near as confusing as the rules about barbarians. All that Parson says is that he doesn't think that Judy is from his world, and he seems uncertain about that because Kansas is a place in Stupidworld, so this doesn't seem to put anything to rest.


I referred to the coming confusion caused by me using the term confusion. :)

No, really I was referring to recurring ideas about how Stupidworld and Erfworld is connected, often stated in terms that show them to be the only worlds availble. This despite Stanley making sure to put in requirements such as breathing air, which points to a wide variety of worlds existing in "Anywhere in all existence" (as Wanda states it when Stanley asks form where the perfect warlord would be summoned).

But what you should have pointed out as the major flaw in my argument is that Rob would labor under illusions of there being a way of putting topics to rest.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby splintermute » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:51 am

I think "over the hundred-turns" is the Erfworld analogue of our saying "over the years" - i.e. no specific amount of time (other than greater than 2 years) is indicated. Since Erfworlders don't age normally, the events of Inner Peace could have taken place centuries ago - there's no need for time stream discrepancies, regardless of whether or not Judy was Dorothy, and whether or not she returned to Stupid World Kansas.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Beeskee » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:25 am

I get the impression that the secrets, however minor they seem, are very significant given the nature of Erfworld.

Before, Parson was facing an unknown threat. Now he's facing the Wizard of Oz. He knows something about that story, and can base his plans on that.

What was it that Slately said? "Signamancy is a terrible curse" ? Charlie will likely behave in ways that Parson can predict, based on this new knowledge. I'm guessing that is one of the reasons Charlie went to such lengths to change his signamancy. It's a vulnerability.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:05 pm

CorrTerek wrote:
Regarding public domain characters that Parson could use, Captain Nemo and Sherlock Holmes are two big ones. Great minds, those two. For warriors, you have both John Carter and Tarzan (neither of whom has truly been done justice in film, sadly) as well as King Arthur. For casters, Merlin stands out.


And someone mentioned Thor etc.

As people think of strong/powerful characters that could be brought to Erfworld, I'd just like to remind everyone that DOROTHY (or the gal that played Dorothy) was a perfect warlord. Dorothy/Judy. Why bring Thor when you could bring some random 15 year old girl?
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Beeskee » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:08 pm

Or a random 20-something gamer... :D
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Jinren » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:23 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:
CorrTerek wrote:
Regarding public domain characters that Parson could use, Captain Nemo and Sherlock Holmes are two big ones. Great minds, those two. For warriors, you have both John Carter and Tarzan (neither of whom has truly been done justice in film, sadly) as well as King Arthur. For casters, Merlin stands out.


And someone mentioned Thor etc.

As people think of strong/powerful characters that could be brought to Erfworld, I'd just like to remind everyone that DOROTHY (or the gal that played Dorothy) was a perfect warlord. Dorothy/Judy. Why bring Thor when you could bring some random 15 year old girl?


Besides which, GK already has a super-strong hammer-lightning-flying warrior dude. Turns out they're of limited utility.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby CorrTerek » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:40 pm

Jinren wrote:Besides which, GK already has a super-strong hammer-lightning-flying warrior dude. Turns out they're of limited utility.


Pretty much. If Parson can summon anyone, he's probably much better off either A) letting the summon spell do its own thing, or B) summoning people that veer more towards the intellectual/tactical/strategic side of things.

Not to mention that we have no idea how the transition to Erfworld might change how some people's abilities work.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby MarbitChow » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:58 pm

I'm not sure that "Charlie is the Wizard" is really the important bit that Charlie is protecting. I get the impression that he "locked down" the whole story, and the actual important bit is the exact nature and current location of the 4th Tool.

Charlie, it seems to me, would have added the emphasis about the whole secret being about him as a sort of misdirection as part of the contract. A sort of "You must not speak a word of any detail regarding how you found out about my nature," knowing that the detail of the Shoes falls under the general category.

His fear of the shoes would also explain why he's only got one city. There's no point at all in spreading out your defenses against an attacker who can teleport past them.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Lipkin » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:28 pm

0beron wrote:Following up on a point Lilwik made...the SPW spell could summon from anywhere in existence, and fiction is treated as reality....what if "Judy" actually IS Dorthy? Then Parson's confusion would make sense. He seems to think that Judy couldn't have actually come from his world, perhaps because the timing is off. Her return to his world could have come after the Wizard of Oz was already written, after all Judy Garland only played Dorthy in the movie, so she came long after the book had been written.

I'm still not Lilwik.


There is one answer to the problem of how this could be the story of the Wizard of Oz. Charlie could be the author of the story that we know. It's long been speculated that Charlie can use the dish to reach Stupid World somehow. L. Frank Baum wrote the Wizard of Oz, and el-Efbaum was the side that Charlie ruled before Charlescomm. It would explain the discrepancies between the stories we know, and the story on Erf. Charlie would likely change a number of details.

I don't have a reason for him to be the author, but there is so much we still don't know about him. I don't know that we have a reason for him to definitely NOT be the author.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:31 pm

Ah my bad, this is what happens when I say things from memory rather than actually quoting haha.

But good point, I hadn't thought of that.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Sir Shadow » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:55 pm

Sixty wrote:Does seem odd that Parson thinks she couldn't have gone back to Earth. Does he assume everyone would have heard of her story then? I mean, most people would just write her off as crazy if she claimed to have returned from another world and had magic shoes (that probably don't do that much on Earth, at least having infinite move wouldn't mean much here unless it also made you not tired from waking 24/7.

In the books (and the movies too, I guess), Dorothy lost the shoes when she was being transported back to her world. IIRC, they fell into the deadly desert and were never really influential again. Except in the movies, but they differed wildly from the books.

Also, that point RIGHT THERE might be why Charlie doesn't want anybody to know about what happened in Haffaton. IF he knows the story of the Wizard of OZ, he might believe that the Arkenshoes are still in Erfworld. He might have been searching for it since then, which might be why he's become such a widely-spread mercenary side. So now that Parson knows, he might be able to draw a parallel with the story to the events of Erfworld and think that the Arkenshoes are still out there to be found. But that's total conjecture.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby davidj » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:01 pm

Sir Shadow beat me to some of this...

The Wizard of Oz parallel might give some clue to the shoes' location, especially if there's a physical border or edge to Erfworld. A portal could be used to quickly access a city near that border. But where along that edge?

If it was as simple as using Findamancy, someone would have done it already. Maybe Arkentools are immune to Findamancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:08 pm

davidj wrote:If it was as simple as using Findamancy, someone would have done it already. Maybe Arkentools are immune to Findamancy.
I was wondering about that myself, but we know Wanda found them with Findamancy after Olive hid them. So it might be that they are just very hard to Find, and proximity makes it easier. That, or they are only immune to Findamancy after they have moved of their own accord. So Olive hiding them didn't count, but them teleporting away would.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby M.A.D » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:15 pm

Two things I'm wondering from this update: Whether Rob is going to change the names again like Dorothy's, and whether Parson trusts Black Jack's story.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:24 pm

M.A.D wrote:I'm wondering whether Rob is going to change the names again like Dorothy's.
I doubt it, because I think when Judy/Dorthy was first written he put it right in the news post that her name was just a placeholder. But out of curiosity, who's names are you thinking?
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Lipkin » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:41 pm

0beron wrote:
davidj wrote:If it was as simple as using Findamancy, someone would have done it already. Maybe Arkentools are immune to Findamancy.
I was wondering about that myself, but we know Wanda found them with Findamancy after Olive hid them. So it might be that they are just very hard to Find, and proximity makes it easier. That, or they are only immune to Findamancy after they have moved of their own accord. So Olive hiding them didn't count, but them teleporting away would.

Or it's easier to find the shoes with Findamancy with access to someone attuned to them.

And I just realized something that probably drove Wanda more than a little crazy. She didn't get the prediction that she would attune until she joined Faq, right? Now imagine getting the prediction, and knowing that she had a tool within her grasp, but let it slip, and now is forbidden to talk about it.
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