Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Tathar » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:47 pm

LordBiscuit wrote:David's art is improving. I really like the way he did Jack in this update.

Agreed. The past few updates hadn't captured the Erfworld style very well, but this one does much better.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:55 pm

Lipkin wrote:Or it's easier to find the shoes with Findamancy with access to someone attuned to them.
Perhaps, but Judy wasn't even in the room at the time, and I think "being on the same side" as an Attuned wielder is a bit of a stretch for "having access to" one. But that's just me.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Sir Shadow » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:22 pm

Perhaps you have to know what you're looking for to use Findamancy? It's been said the only known Arkentools are the Arkendish, The Arkenhammer, and the Arkenpliers. Most people already know where those are/who has them. Just searching for a general "ArkenBLANK" might not be possible. Maybe the Arkenshoes are too far away for anybody that knows about them to reach them with Findamancy.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Ditto » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:46 pm

One Huge Tuck has an excellent point about the little girl from Kansas being what the situation required. The DM of a final campaign is what Gobwin Knob needed. The solution to beating Charlie is figuring out his role in the story. It's not the wizard of oz anymore. It's more like Charlie's Angels, but that doesn't quite match his current situation. But now that he's the outright villain, like in his thinkagram with Slately, pinning down what flavor of comeuppance will match him is the real question.
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
Sorry*.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby mortissimus » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:01 pm

Hm, Charlie's secrets has been mentioned since the Archons first decrypted, and they did not know about the Wizard of Oz background. Perhaps it is just Charlie being paranoid, but I think the battle against Charlie is going to turn on his secrets, which means that Parson is unlikely to figure it out before the climax of the war against Charlie.

The seccrets could be:
- The Wizard of Oz background, ie who is Charlie behind the curtain
- The Arkenshoes
- The Charlie/Olive relationship. Why did Charlie want the Garden, is he secretly hooked on buds?
- Charlie's goals (building Archons and collecting Schmuckers until he can take out the rest of the world in a series of decapitation strikes?)
- Add your own

Or a combination.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby hajo » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:17 pm

0beron wrote:
davidj wrote:If it was as simple as using Findamancy, someone would have done it already.
Maybe Arkentools are immune to Findamancy.

we know Wanda found them with Findamancy after Olive hid them.

Yes, but Wanda could only find them within the same city.
OTOH, Wanda is not a master of Findamancy, so maybe it just needs more power 8-)

Also, if a spell can be made to summon a person from another world, would it be possible to craft a spell like "summon arkentool" ?
It may be expensive, but so is an army :mrgreen:
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:22 pm

hajo wrote:Also, if a spell can be made to summon a person from another world, would it be possible to craft a spell like "summon arkentool" ? It may be expensive, but so is an army :mrgreen:
Possible but unlikely I think. I know it sounds ironic, but in a way it makes sense that summoning from another world is actually easier because that's a "simple" matter of crossing a boundary. Summoning a 'Tool however would potentially involve defying Fate or the Will of the Titans. If the Titans didn't want a 'Tool to be found, you can bet it will be hard/impossible/painful to try.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Jinren » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:55 pm

Being able to summon something currently in Erfworld would imply various other gamebreaking options:

-- summon that person's equipment so they don't have it when I attack
-- summon that side's Ruler to my Assassination Chamber
-- summon my Really Useful Units to the battlefield

Whereas we have only seen it used as an alternative to popping, i.e. to add units not currently existing in the world.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Lilwik » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:31 pm

Jinren wrote:Whereas we have only seen it used as an alternative to popping, i.e. to add units not currently existing in the world.
We know beyond any doubt that the warlord could have been summoned from somewhere in Erfworld from Book 1, Page 5: "From where?" "Anywhere in all existence. It's a very powerful spell."

There must be something that prevents it from being abused. It's probably something very technical in whatever magic was used to do the summoning. At the very least it's a very difficult spell to create, but summoning an enemy ruler is priceless so there must be more to it than that.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:40 pm

Lilwik wrote:We know beyond any doubt that the warlord could have been summoned from somewhere in Erfworld from Book 1, Page 5: "From where?" "Anywhere in all existence. It's a very powerful spell."
In theory you may be right, that it is within the spell's technical power to call a unit from Erfworld....but units within Erfworld may not fit the required parameters. It may be impossible for a native Erfling to be a perfect warlord at all. Or even if you're not looking for the perfect warlord, there was no Turnamancy involved, so it'd be impossible to find a unit in Erfworld who didn't already have existing loyalties. If the unit you summon has to be "unattached" then Erflings would never be viable targets even if they're in the spell's scope area.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby davidj » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:07 pm

0beron wrote:
davidj wrote:If it was as simple as using Findamancy, someone would have done it already. Maybe Arkentools are immune to Findamancy.
I was wondering about that myself, but we know Wanda found them with Findamancy after Olive hid them. So it might be that they are just very hard to Find, and proximity makes it easier.


I'd forgotten about that. Distance makes sense to me. We don't know that much about findamancy. Except for the tri-link table thing.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:14 pm

davidj wrote:We don't know that much about findamancy. Except for the tri-link table thing.
That was Look, not Find. So yeah pretty much all we know about Findamancy is:
  • It summons things
  • It locates things
Given that Look and Find are both Erf disciplines, and share the use of the Life element, we can probably assume they work in a similar way from a mechanics perspective. And we know Lookamancers have a maximum range, so it would make sense Findamancers do as well.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby GrandReaper » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:52 pm

I'm finding it odd how many people keep saying that the information given about Charlie thus far is inconsequential to the upcoming campaign against him. While it's true that we don't have any big conclusions or achille's heel for him, there are a few big topics that could be mined for tremendous insight. These are what I think Parson will be questioning and pursuing answers for.

1) His metamorphosis after attuning. Before attunement - dominate the world. After attunement - that's the LAST thing Charlie wants. What did he learn/feel/experience to change his opinion so drastically? We haven't observed such a drastic shift in the personalities of other attuned persons, so was it knowledge gained while using the Arkendish or is there a psychological component to attunement?

2) His experiments with Olive involving the ... blurring of the lines, for lack of a better term, between magical disciplines. Shortly after attuning Charlie was linking with Olive and mentoring her on how to replicate the effects of other disciplines while using her Hippiemancy. Combined with what Parson witnessed with Kingworld and the fact that Charlie is a Carnymancer, the possibilities of just what Charlie could achieve given the right mix of casters is truly terrifying and gamebreaking. Just what can Parson (likely with the help of the GMTTA) do to limit this "exploit"? Thank heavens Charlie doesn't have any casters on his side that are under the effects of Duty and Loyalty for him to experiment with.

3) The existence of the Shoes. The only tool that was unaccounted for and now Parson has been told what it is and some of its potential. Combined with the ties to the Wizard of Oz story and he might just have some interesting ideas on how to go about finding them. Indeed, he must in a lot of senses. Not only are they a potential way home should he wish to try going home but a potential "end game" for the job he's been saddled with (fixing Erfworld) could be possession of all the Arkentools.

Like I said, although there are no answers here, there are a great number of lines of questioning for Parson to pursue (which makes for a better narrative anyway).
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Lilwik » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:08 pm

GrandReaper wrote:What did he learn/feel/experience to change his opinion so drastically? We haven't observed such a drastic shift in the personalities of other attuned persons, so was it knowledge gained while using the Arkendish or is there a psychological component to attunement?
Those are interesting questions, but they're not useful for Parson because he has no way to get answers to those questions. Surely Charlie's not going to answer them.

GrandReaper wrote:Combined with the ties to the Wizard of Oz story and he might just have some interesting ideas on how to go about finding them.
The shoes just disappeared. I guess that they didn't leave Erfworld, but nothing short of luck, Findamancy, or an exhaustive search could find them again. Parson's knowledge of the Wizard of Oz story is useless because the similarities between that story and the history of Erfworld are probably purely coincidental, so Parson can't expect more of them.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:18 pm

Lilwik wrote:Parson's knowledge of the Wizard of Oz story is useless because the similarities between that story and the history of Erfworld are probably purely coincidental, so Parson can't expect more of them.
I disagree that the similarities are coincidental...but they ARE limited. The stories only overlap during the time when Judy was summoned...once she defeated the witches, the stories diverged. Stupidworld's Dorthy went home, whereas Judy went on to become an Overlady and stay in Erfworld for much longer. So yes I totally agree that Parson's knowledge of the story won't help him find the shoes, but for a different reason.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Zeku » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:31 pm

You guys are overlooking some simple stuff. Time travel is extravagant and not necessary at all.

What we've seen so far suggests that Erfworld is influenced and constructed out of the ideas, preferences, and imagination of whoever visits it. It's a kind of Valhalla, except it's not the same for everyone. This would explain the endless stupidworld references everywhere.

So, all that's necessary, is for someone who saw the Wizard of Oz to appear in Erfworld, and through whatever mechanism we don't yet perceive, recreate aspects of it upon arrival. Similarly, it seems that the Gobwin Knob scenario was a recreation of Parson's game, so the same mechanic operated on him. The only odd aspect is that Gobwin Knob existed long before Parson arrived, which could mean several different things, all of which are somewhat confusing. The simplest explanation is actually not that Erfworld is constructed out of the preferences of those who are 'worthy' to visit Erfworld, but rather, that the alignment of "the physical Erfworld" with a person's inner thoughts increases the probability that they can be summoned. Once the probability is high enough, the Fate mechanic of Erfworld "locks on" to those who are already partially aligned to generate things like the summoning spell.

This explanation also limits the total number of 'worlds' we've encountered so far to two, which I don't necessarily agree with, but it does work.

Next, tri-link was a Stanley invention, not a Parson invention. It's probably originally a Charlie invention, since between the two, Charlie seems more likely. We haven't seen these two interact yet.

Third, looking and finding are definitely two different concepts altogether. They are often correlated, but that's where the similarity ends. Finding implies pre-existing knowledge, and the summoning aspect of findamancy (or predictamancy) relies on Fate or Desire. Meaning, the person or thing being 'found' must want to be found.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Sir Shadow » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:33 pm

0beron wrote:So yes I totally agree that Parson's knowledge of the story won't help him find the shoes, but for a different reason.
Not necessarily. Though it took her longer, Judy DID use the shoes to return home. I think it's a rather safe assumption to claim that the shoes were left behind, just like Dorothy's.

Another thing I'm amused nobody has really brought up: Jack said straight up that the contract was a spell of some kind. He didn't say the magic was weighing down on him, which could be taken as 'natural magic' but he specifically said spell... considering that was quite a subject of debate... well /shrug.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:43 pm

Zeku wrote:Next, tri-link was a Stanley invention, not a Parson invention. It's probably originally a Charlie invention, since between the two, Charlie seems more likely. We haven't seen these two interact yet.
Not sure if you made a typo or two here, because the grammar doesn't really seem right...but this is still a relevant point to make: Trilinks are not an invention by Charlie, Stanley, OR Parson...they are a known ability of Thinkamancers in general, something they have always been able to do. Nobody had to "come up" with it, every Thinkamancer pops knowing they can create links, just like any other caster knows the basic uses of their school.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby Zeku » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:50 pm

Thanks Captain. Casters know which spells they can cast

It has not been revealed in the story which ruler first decided to order a Thinkamancer to perform this task, nor has it been revealed whether Thinkamancer's willingly revealed this capability

They have SECRETS, remember? Charlie and the thinkamancers

That would be a great band name, don't you think Zero? Next-level obscurity and nerdiness
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 07 – Jack in Black

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:03 pm

Zeku wrote:(Point 1)It has not been revealed in the story which ruler first decided to order a Thinkamancer to perform this task, (Point 2) nor has it been revealed whether Thinkamancer's willingly revealed this capability.

Point 1 is irrelevant, since for the entirety of the story it has been a known ability of Thinkamancers, so the first link obviously happened before Charlie. FAQ knew what a link was despite having no contact which Charlie or Haffaton prior to the trial.
Point 2 is an interesting one, however I would argue the answer is yes they would share it. Maggie linked with Sizemore willingly for the city rebuilding because it was to her side's benefit, so early Thinkamancers may have had similar logic. The Thinkamancers' secrets seem to be related to much deeper aspects of their magic, stuff that goes beyond the basic functions. Like what Maggie says about the deeper levels of Thinkagrams. So given that linking is a basic concept, I'd imagine it was not a secret they hoarded.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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