Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:17 pm

davidj wrote:They don't bleed when they're cut.
Oh they most certainly do, and we know that they do have all the same internal anatomy as humans, because Croakamancers specifically talk about such things, as do Healomancers too IIRC.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Lipkin » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:57 pm

0beron wrote:
davidj wrote:They don't bleed when they're cut.
Oh they most certainly do, and we know that they do have all the same internal anatomy as humans, because Croakamancers specifically talk about such things, as do Healomancers too IIRC.

We know they have some of the same basic anatomy, but not that they function in the same way. And they don't bleed. We've seen a ton of injuries, but no blood to be found. The most we'll get is some cartoonish red on the body, but no fluid to be found.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-31.jpg

Here is a Jetsone soldier who is missing an arm, and chunk out of his side. He's upright, running, fighting, seemingly without problem. And no blood. There is fluid on his shirt around his wound, but if you look at his cape, it's ragged, and around all the holes is similar liquid. I think you'll find it is acidic dwagon battle crap. Parson would be immobile from blood loss with the same injuries.

If you can show me one part in the comic where a native Erfworlder unit bleeds, I'll retract my statement. I don't think there is such a case.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:04 pm

Lipkin wrote:We know they have some of the same basic anatomy, but not that they function in the same way.
I would disagree with that, if it doesn't function the same way, there isn't much point in having the anatomy. Further, Wanda speaks of the functions various parts perform and how they must be repaired when she uncroaks something, or their function is artificially replaced by Motion.

As for blood, I think you are simply being misled by art style. Wanda also talks about blood and vessels, so we know they have it and we know they lose it. Just because we never see it depicted in more detail than cartoonish splatters doesn't mean they're not bleeding.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Lilwik » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:21 pm

0beron wrote:As for blood, I think you are simply being misled by art style.
No, they really don't bleed. See Word of the Titans 4047518.

0beron wrote:Wanda also talks about blood and vessels, so we know they have it and we know they lose it.
I agree that they have it, but where did we learn that they lose it?

0beron wrote:Just because we never see it depicted in more detail than cartoonish splatters doesn't mean they're not bleeding.
Have we seen cartoonish splatters somewhere?
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:30 pm

Well that's just dumb and weird and outright contradictory. If they have it, and an artery gets severed, how do they NOT lose it? And why does Wanda bother repairing vessels if they're not important. And why would it be remarkable/noteworthy that she was able to restore Un-Tommy's circulation, if he never lost any blood to begin with? Do you see my point? Word of the Titans is telling us they apparently don't bleed, yet everything in the comic is all but saying they DO....

EDIT: ooooh wait a minute, I think I found our solution...that Word of the Titans was from Jamie, not Rob, so it's possible he was mistaken?
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Lilwik » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:43 pm

0beron wrote:If they have it, and an artery gets severed, how do they NOT lose it?
I'm surprised that you wonder about that when it seems tiny in comparison to the enormous barriers that Erfworld has between hexes. The hex boundaries somehow intelligently block units and arrows that aren't supposed to pass while letting the ones that are allowed to pass go freely. Compared to that, keeping blood inside bodies seems trivial.

0beron wrote:And why does Wanda bother repairing vessels if they're not important.
I don't think we've ever heard anything about them not being important.

0beron wrote:And why would it be remarkable/noteworthy that she was able to restore Un-Tommy's circulation, if he never lost any blood to begin with?
Circulation also requires a beating heart and working vessels.

0beron wrote:Word of the Titans is telling us they apparently don't bleed, yet everything in the comic is all but saying they DO....
The comic only says they have blood, which is just different enough from bleeding to not cause a problem.

0beron wrote:I think I found our solution...that Word of the Titans was from Jamie, not Rob, so it's possible he was mistaken?
No, the Titans are never wrong. If he didn't know the correct answer then he wouldn't have guessed.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:52 pm

Lilwik wrote:No, the Titans are never wrong. If he didn't know the correct answer then he wouldn't have guessed.
I'm suggesting that he didn't KNOW he was wrong, that he misinterpreted something Rob told him. The only Titan I trust completely is Rob, because things get lost in translation unintentionally.
It still makes absolutely no sense, and in a way your responses actually highlight rather than resolve these problems, especially in reference to Un-Tommy. If there is a magical force that keeps blood inside vessels...then all vessels are "functional", so all uncroaked should be able to have circulation easily (if the heart is broken, you just apply some artificial Motion). Since they don't, there must not be such a force, meaning the blood is lost. It can't be both.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Lilwik » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:23 pm

0beron wrote:I'm suggesting that he didn't KNOW he was wrong, that he misinterpreted something Rob told him.
I can't imagine how a misinterpretation like that might have happened.

0beron wrote:If there is a magical force that keeps blood inside vessels...
We have no evidence for a magical force keeping blood inside vessels. All we know is the blood stays inside the body somehow. The big difference is that the vessels could be totally decayed and useless as long as the magic still keeps the blood from escaping the body. Imagine an battery-powered electric pump floating loose and whirring away in a tank of red kool aid; it's not going to accomplish much, and even that is assuming that the decayed vessels don't actually interfere with the flow, turning the kool aid into jello.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Jabberwocky » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:04 pm

davidj wrote:Biologically


A wizard did it.

Thats the explanation I'm going with for the entire biological issues matter. DNA, arteries and bleeding, sleep, food, pooping, peenars and hoohaas..

A wizard did it. A wizard did ALL of it. A wizard did Parson too*. Parson is now a giant Play-Doh man! Because a wizard did it!

*If Maggie has her way, a wizard will be doing Parson every single night.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby davidj » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:26 pm

Erf has a hit point-based system. Bleeding doesn't really fit with that very well. (Or with the precious & cute theme.)

Erf people & critters continue functioning pretty well as long as they have some hit points left. (Simplifying a bit, I know.) They don't die of wounds later, usually - they heal at start of turn.

Pain & bleeding tend to put Earth people & critters out of action, and often kill them later.

This argument started with the emotional differences between Erf and Earth people, though. Seems to me there are some, even if they're not as obvious as the biological differences.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Tonot » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:45 pm

Maybe Wanda having to know about, and consider things like circulation, nerves, muscles, veins even though they don't seem to be actually vital to an Erf-worlders functioning , is just kind of arbitrary "rules" for her discipline. A complex list of "ingredients" for her spells, that she has to consider, like ticking off a list.

And this seems to me to more certainly place their world as "reliant" to, formed off of, our one. Their peoples'/humans' bodies work without one to one reference to blood circulation or nerve integrity, but their "stats" or their casting that effects the body does consider 'real" human physiology.
Kind of like our bodies are the map theirs are drawn to.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Lilwik » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:54 pm

Tonot wrote:Maybe Wanda having to know about, and consider things like circulation, nerves, muscles, veins even though they don't seem to be actually vital to an Erf-worlders functioning , is just kind of arbitrary "rules" for her discipline.
If Wanda needs to tend to those things to create uncroaked units, then they must be vital to the functioning of the uncroaked, and it would be bizarre for the uncroaked to be the ones dependent on circulation while the living don't need it. What makes it seem that it's not vital to Erfworlders functioning?
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Tonot » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:09 pm

Lilwik wrote: What makes it seem that it's not vital to Erfworlders functioning?

You mean, to me?. Well, people fought on after taking nerve damage that would completely incapacitate them if the nerves were functioning. They fought on with a big part of their body chopped away, one of whom had a cut that would have chopped clean through the vagus nerve, and I was told by my Sensei that that one would drop any person dead at your feet.

People don't seem to bleed, so ( I realise logic fails where magic works, but still ) logically that means their blood doesn't pump at pressure, which means it doesn't perform a vital function.

One group took fire which charcoaled them, and the ones it didn't kill, were able to talk rationally and see clearly, though if they had nerves which functioned as nerves, and eyes as eyes, they would have been dopey from shock and blind.

So to me, they have the systems in place but the systems are just cosmetic, there for incidental reasons, not functional ones.

Another thought is, things like cloth golems do not have circulation, they have stitching and stuffing instead, but their functions, hit-points and hit-point losses, seem to be of the same order as human/people ones.
Are the stitching and stuffing "Functional" or are they just, as veins muscles and nerves might be functionless kind of arbitrary "rules" for Wanda's discipline, functionless kind of arbitrary "rules" for the Dollmancers disciplines?.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:35 am

Tonot wrote:Well, people fought on after taking nerve damage that would completely incapacitate them if the nerves were functioning.
Erfworlders are more durable than Stupidworlders, but that's hardly evidence that they're not using their nerves and blood vessels. Injuries do weaken them. See Book 0, Episode 47 for Jllian fighting the tannenbaum while injured.

Tonot wrote:They fought on with a big part of their body chopped away, one of whom had a cut that would have chopped clean through the vagus nerve, and I was told by my Sensei that that one would drop any person dead at your feet.
I'd like to see that. Does anyone know which page that's on?

Tonot wrote:One group took fire which charcoaled them, and the ones it didn't kill, were able to talk rationally and see clearly, though if they had nerves which functioned as nerves, and eyes as eyes, they would have been dopey from shock and blind.
Maybe his eyes weren't as burned as they appear to be. As I understand shock, it's caused by either damage to the heart, infection, or loss of blood. Loss of blood clearly isn't an issue. We know that diseases exist in some form in Erfworld (see Book 0, Episode 16 where disease is mentioned), but we've never seen any details of that so it's surely not something that happens normally as a result of battle wounds. It probably requires magic.

Tonot wrote:Another thought is, things like cloth golems do not have circulation, they have stitching and stuffing instead, but their functions, hit-points and hit-point losses, seem to be of the same order as human/people ones.
That's to be expected since golems are an entirely different kind of thing; they are made by people. If I ever saw a robot acting like a person, I wouldn't think for an instant that it meant that I could do without my heart just because the robot has no heart.

Tonot wrote:Are the stitching and stuffing "Functional" or are they just, as veins muscles and nerves might be functionless kind of arbitrary "rules" for Wanda's discipline, functionless kind of arbitrary "rules" for the Dollmancers disciplines?.
If they are required to make the golem move then they're clearly not functionless.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Lipkin » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:48 am

Lilwik wrote:
Tonot wrote:Maybe Wanda having to know about, and consider things like circulation, nerves, muscles, veins even though they don't seem to be actually vital to an Erf-worlders functioning , is just kind of arbitrary "rules" for her discipline.
If Wanda needs to tend to those things to create uncroaked units, then they must be vital to the functioning of the uncroaked, and it would be bizarre for the uncroaked to be the ones dependent on circulation while the living don't need it. What makes it seem that it's not vital to Erfworlders functioning?

Parson needed to patrol the city in order for it to receive the warlord manager's bonus. For some reason he needed to walk through the city to make the magic work. Organs and other such internal things could be the same way.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:15 am

Lipkin wrote:Parson needed to patrol the city in order for it to receive the warlord manager's bonus. For some reason he needed to walk through the city to make the magic work. Organs and other such internal things could be the same way.
They could be, but are you going to actually guess that they are? It seems quite unlikely. Plus, even if internal organs worked that way it wouldn't mean much because they would still be just as important. Just as Parson needs to examine the empty bank, Jillian needs her heart to keep beating, and she croaks if it doesn't. Whether her heart is like Parson and the bank or not, it's still exactly as vital to her survival.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Lipkin » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:16 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Parson needed to patrol the city in order for it to receive the warlord manager's bonus. For some reason he needed to walk through the city to make the magic work. Organs and other such internal things could be the same way.
They could be, but are you going to actually guess that they are? It seems quite unlikely. Plus, even if internal organs worked that way it wouldn't mean much because they would still be just as important. Just as Parson needs to examine the empty bank, Jillian needs her heart to keep beating, and she croaks if it doesn't. Whether her heart is like Parson and the bank or not, it's still exactly as vital to her survival.

She needs her heart to keep beating, but maybe getting a spear shoved through it wouldn't be fatal. We know Wanda needed to fix the organs and whatnot to uncroak Tommy, but that could just be the way the magic works, and he doesn't actually need it to function.

*Shrug*

Just trying not to assume.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Tonot » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:20 am

,
Lilwik wrote:
Tonot wrote:They fought on with a big part of their body chopped away, one of whom had a cut that would have chopped clean through the vagus nerve, and I was told by my Sensei that that one would drop any person dead at your feet.
I'd like to see that. Does anyone know which page that's on?.


I can't find the shot of the guy coming forward with the spear in his hand and no shoulder or arm on the other side, but I did see it. I think he was a warlord, and attacking the Archer lady with the dragons.

Lipkin wrote:[Parson needed to patrol the city in order for it to receive the warlord manager's bonus. For some reason he needed to walk through the city to make the magic work. Organs and other such internal things could be the same way.


Yep, that is the point I was thinking of. Just have to be there, like ingredients or the lines on a pentagram or a sigil or something.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby wih » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:15 am

Tonot wrote:,
Lilwik wrote:
Tonot wrote:They fought on with a big part of their body chopped away, one of whom had a cut that would have chopped clean through the vagus nerve, and I was told by my Sensei that that one would drop any person dead at your feet.
I'd like to see that. Does anyone know which page that's on?.


I can't find the shot of the guy coming forward with the spear in his hand and no shoulder or arm on the other side, but I did see it. I think he was a warlord, and attacking the Archer lady with the dragons.

I think it's Downer, on pages 50 and 51.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 06 – Parson and Maggie Discuss Matters

Postby Lipkin » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:52 am

Tonot wrote:,
Lilwik wrote:
Tonot wrote:They fought on with a big part of their body chopped away, one of whom had a cut that would have chopped clean through the vagus nerve, and I was told by my Sensei that that one would drop any person dead at your feet.
I'd like to see that. Does anyone know which page that's on?.


I can't find the shot of the guy coming forward with the spear in his hand and no shoulder or arm on the other side, but I did see it. I think he was a warlord, and attacking the Archer lady with the dragons.

Lipkin wrote:[Parson needed to patrol the city in order for it to receive the warlord manager's bonus. For some reason he needed to walk through the city to make the magic work. Organs and other such internal things could be the same way.


Yep, that is the point I was thinking of. Just have to be there, like ingredients or the lines on a pentagram or a sigil or something.

I posted the page you are thinking of in my first post of page 6 of this thread. It's actually Antium.
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