Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:03 pm

0beron wrote:Barbarians have Purses, NA's can't. I think that's a huge strike against them being the same.
I think you're right about natural allies and purses, but I can't remember why I think that. Does anyone know where we learned it? I looked around for it and found this instead: Book 1, Page 79a, Klog #9, which claims that natural allies have treasuries. Of course I'm very aware that klogs and stupidmeals are not 100% reliable or accurate, but they get more right than they get wrong, so we should tentatively assume they are right until they are contradicted.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:16 pm

Oh yeah that's really weird, I think Parson was mistaken because there is some other point where it's said NA's actually can't hang on to schmuckers, if you give them more than is required for their upkeep, they have to pop more of themselves.
On the Purses thing, it's never said directly but it is stated that only Commanders have Purses, and it's implied that Chieftains aren't really "Commanders", they just have weak Natural Thinkamancy similar to Rulers.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Jabberwocky » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:20 pm

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_4

Natural Allies such as Hobgobwins have their own languages, and only some units in a tribe speak Language.

Natural Allies know the will of their tribe’s Chief or Chiefs by Natural Thinkamancy, even from other hexes.

Tribes have no purse and keep no Shmuckers. When they are in an alliance, their allied side pops rations for them from its treasury. But a feral tribe must hunt or gather or farm or mine.

If they are given Shmuckers, the tribe must convert it all to new or promoted units or popped rations or equipment on the next turn.


That wotcha guys were thinking about?

As for Treasuries.. maybe Treasuries can include more than just Schmuckers? It could be the tribe's accumulated material wealth in stored rations, equipment and what not. Maybe even gems since, as far as I know, gems count as items even though they can be converted to schmuckers.
Last edited by Jabberwocky on Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:21 pm

Yuuuuup.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Jabberwocky » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:28 pm

0beron wrote:Yuuuuup.


Just thought a direct link and quote would be helpful :?

Anyways... I think the original Stupidmeal thing is probably the victim of Retconjuration. Or the even more terrifying "Oh right, I forgot about that"-a-mancy as every relevant bit of info thats popped up so far has painted barbarians and natural allies as being very, very different.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:37 pm

Oh my "yup" wasn't meant to be flippant, more grateful actually.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:40 pm

Jabberwocky wrote:Natural Allies such as Hobgobwins have their own languages, and only some units in a tribe speak Language.
Does that mean only Hobgobwins and similar natural allies, or all natural allies?

Jabberwocky wrote:Natural Allies know the will of their tribe’s Chief or Chiefs by Natural Thinkamancy, even from other hexes.
I'm pretty sure that's true of capital sides too, so I would expect it for barbarians since everyone else seems to be able to do it.

Jabberwocky wrote:Tribes have no purse and keep no Shmuckers. When they are in an alliance, their allied side pops rations for them from its treasury. But a feral tribe must hunt or gather or farm or mine.
That does seem to contradict the earlier klog about natural allies having treasuries! Or perhaps tribes are simply required to use up their treasury every turn. I expect they do technically have a treasury with stored shmuckers for each day before they decide how they will be spent. I'm also suspicious of Vurp's use of the word "tribes". Is he using that as another way to say "natural allies"? That seems strange because even Stanley is a member of a tribe and he's clearly not a natural ally. It makes more sense to suppose that when Vurp says "tribes" he means Hobgobwin tribes and so we can't necessarily generalize it to all natural allies.

Hobgobwins might not have any commanders, and so in Vurp's experience Hobgobwin tribes can't keep shmuckers, but a natural ally that has commanders would be able to keep some small amount of shmuckers in each commander's purse.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby wih » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:11 pm

Note the quote - they have to spend their schmuckers on the next turn. They have to have somewhere to keep it until then, which is probably the treasury.

Also, it says that Tribes have no purse, not Natural Allies have no purse.

Maybe we need to differentiate between a Tribe, and Barbarians, both are Natural Allies, but some of the restrictions we're aware of apply only to Tribes.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:24 pm

wih wrote:Maybe we need to differentiate between a Tribe, and Barbarians, both are Natural Allies, but some of the restrictions we're aware of apply only to Tribes.
Don't forget the Plaid Tribe, which is clearly a tribe without being a Natural Ally.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby GWvsJohn » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:27 pm

I always took Vurp's use of "tribe" to refer to a group of natural ally units who follow a particular chief.

I really think people are looking too deep into this. To me, it seems pretty clear how Natural Allies work and how Barbarians work and how they are similar/different.
I know how it works. And I'm not that confident.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:34 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:To me, it seems pretty clear how Natural Allies work and how Barbarians work and how they are similar/different.
Is it clear because you've accumulated enough evidence to make it clear, or is it clear because you are very confident in your guesses? Consider Word of the Titans 6051503: barbarians are complicated.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:13 pm

Lilwik wrote:Consider Word of the Titans 6051503: barbarians are complicated.
No...the process of them popping randomly in the wild is complicated, not the barbarians themselves.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:45 pm

0beron wrote:No...the process of them popping randomly in the wild is complicated, not the barbarians themselves.
What does that mean? How can a process be both random and complicated? If I see a futuristic looking machine with a panel of lights blinking in intricate patterns I'm naturally going to assume that they have some complicated technical meaning. If someone tells me that they are random, they don't seem complicated anymore. So what exactly do you imagine Rob would tell us if he explained the unstated complicated thing behind barbarians popping in the wild? I bet it would answer more than a few questions!

For example, when barbarians pop in the wild is there more than one kind? Do they sometimes pop in groups with a chieftain all ready to act as bandits or become someone's natural ally much like Hobgobwins? Can full barbarian cities pop on unoccupied city sites, and if so, how do barbarian cities work? Can barbarians that pop in the wild be considered a side with a ruler, or is that restricted to capital sides that lose their capital? Maybe all of these possibilities can pop and more, and that's why barbarians are complicated.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby 0beron » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:06 am

I don't CARE what it means, I care that you quote accurately. And as written, there is no way you could stretch what Rob said into "Barbarians are complicated in general". What he actually meant is irrelevant, though one might imagine he meant..."complicated".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Jabberwocky » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:09 am

Lilwik wrote:What does that mean? How can a process be both random and complicated?


Imagine an equation. Toss in a bunch of variables. Those variables? Their values be will determined by dice of various size. So the process is complicated but the end result is somewhat random.

Alternatively, get a girlfriend. Then you'll understand how something can be random, complicated and evil.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:24 am

0beron wrote:And as written, there is no way you could stretch what Rob said into "Barbarians are complicated in general".
He said that barbarian's are complicated, so it's hard to imagine why you would have a problem stretching that to "complicated in general." Maybe he only meant the popping of barbarians is complicated, but that still makes barbarians complicated. If any part of a thing is complicated, then the thing is complicated as a whole. Surely you wouldn't call a computer simple just because the "on" switch is simple; having some simple parts is irrelevant, and I seriously doubt that the popping of barbarians could be complicated if everything else about them were simple.

0beron wrote:What he actually meant is irrelevant, though one might imagine he meant..."complicated".
That's what I think he meant too, so I'm confused about what point you are trying to make, especially if you don't care.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lipkin » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:25 am

Reading it, it looks like barbarians popping in the wild is a complicated issue, not necessarily the process of them popping themselves. It's another element that hadn't been introduced in the book yet, and if barbarians had randomly popped into being near GK, it WOULD have been an asspull.

As far as barbarian citieis go, I don't think there is any such thing. I think you need to have a side to take a city, and you need to have had a capitol to have a side. So a barbarian can take a capitol and start a new side, or a side can lose it's capitol and become barbarian. Barbarians can attack a city, but if they aren't a side without a capitol, they can't capture the city, only sack it. That's my theory.

Also, barbarians aren't natural allies. You have to be allies in order to be that. Barbarians that ally with sides are mercenaries, and we know how those work. Units under contract. Natural moneymancy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:48 am

Lipkin wrote:As far as barbarian cities go, I don't think there is any such thing. I think you need to have a side to take a city, and you need to have had a capitol to have a side.
What happens to cities of sides that lose their capital in your theory? I guess that they are instantly razed by their newly barbarian occupants, a bit like how field units disband when their side ends.

On the other hand, we have several things we can cite to indicate that a side is still a side without a capital, so at least part of your theory must be wrong. Gobwin Knob didn't end as a side when it lost its capital to a gobwin rebellion, according to Sizemore. Faq didn't end as a side when it lost its capital; the casters all stuck together under Banhammer's authority and Natural Thinkamancy. Jillian expected to be a ruler if her father died, even though she would have no capital city to rule from. It seems that the existence of a side depends only on the existence of its ruler, with or without a capital.

Lipkin wrote:Also, barbarians aren't natural allies.
What are you basing that on? It contradicts a Stupidmeal, and I think we should have solid evidence before dismissing something in a Stupidmeal.

Lipkin wrote:You have to be allies in order to be that. Barbarians that ally with sides are mercenaries, and we know how those work. Units under contract. Natural moneymancy.
That all sounds true, though I think the term "natural ally" tends to get used even when they are between alliances. None of it seems to support the idea that barbarians aren't natural allies.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lipkin » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:50 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:As far as barbarian cities go, I don't think there is any such thing. I think you need to have a side to take a city, and you need to have had a capitol to have a side.
What happens to cities of sides that lose their capital in your theory? I guess that they are instantly razed by their newly barbarian occupants, a bit like how field units disband when their side ends.

On the other hand, we have several things we can cite to indicate that a side is still a side without a capital, so at least part of your theory must be wrong. Gobwin Knob didn't end as a side when it lost its capital to a gobwin rebellion, according to Sizemore. Faq didn't end as a side when it lost its capital; the casters all stuck together under Banhammer's authority and Natural Thinkamancy. Jillian expected to be a ruler if her father died, even though she would have no capital city to rule from. It seems that the existence of a side depends only on the existence of its ruler, with or without a capital.

Lipkin wrote:Also, barbarians aren't natural allies.
What are you basing that on? It contradicts a Stupidmeal, and I think we should have solid evidence before dismissing something in a Stupidmeal.

Lipkin wrote:You have to be allies in order to be that. Barbarians that ally with sides are mercenaries, and we know how those work. Units under contract. Natural moneymancy.
That all sounds true, though I think the term "natural ally" tends to get used even when they are between alliances. None of it seems to support the idea that barbarians aren't natural allies.

My guess is that all of Faq's cities were taken, not just the capitol, leaving Faq homeless.

Anyway, you aren't understanding what I'm saying. I didn't say you need to have a capitol to have a side, I said you need to have had one. You become a Ruler by taking ownership of a capitol site. You can lose that capitol, and remain a side. Losing your capitol makes you lose your treasury, which you need to pop units, pay upkeep, and upgrade your other cities. Jetstone wasn't going to change capitol because it had so little treasury that it didn't matter.

Barbarians differ greatly from the other creatures than are natural allies. For one, they can claim cities. For two, Barbarians have purses, and deal in smuckers. Natural Allies have to immediately spend their smuckers on new units or rations, while Jillian was able to spend all her savings of a Thinkogram to Ansom. Barbarians are different from natural allies pretty much across the board. I'm guessing barbs were included with the natural allies list because they aren't properly a side, and it was simpler than making an "other" category.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 072

Postby Lilwik » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:44 pm

Lipkin wrote:I didn't say you need to have a capitol to have a side, I said you need to have had one. You become a Ruler by taking ownership of a capitol site.
I see what you meant now. At least we know for certain that a ruler is still a ruler after losing the capital. Whether a ruler can pop in the wild or not is still something we have no evidence for or against. I'm not going to guess about that, but it would help explain why barbarians popping in the wild can be complicated.

Lipkin wrote:For one, they can claim cities.
Didn't the gobwins claim Gobwin Knob when they took it? They certainly didn't raze it because we can see it still standing when Stanley retakes it, and the gobwins are still in it. Book 1, Page 79. Maybe they are just in it without claiming it, but I don't see where you are getting that natural allies can't claim cities, since Vurp certainly didn't tell it to you.

Lipkin wrote:For two, Barbarians have purses, and deal in smuckers. Natural Allies have to immediately spend their shmuckers on new units or rations, while Jillian was able to spend all her savings of a Thinkogram to Ansom.
That's because Jillian is a commander and has a purse. I'm not sure if most natural allies have commanders. Vurp doesn't seem like command material to me, at least. Maybe Vurp just left out the bit about barbarians sometimes having commanders because those commanders are very rare and perhaps totally nonexistent in hobgobwins.

Lipkin wrote:I'm guessing barbs were included with the natural allies list because they aren't properly a side, and it was simpler than making an "other" category.
I agree that stupidmeals are not really reliable, but the only other mistake we know about was just the omission of an exception to a rule. Flying units in forest hexes can only be attacked by other flying units, except that the stupidmeal failed to mention the exception (see Book 1, Page 46a, Klog #6). That's simplifying the rules so that they will fit onto a meal package, which is a bit different from supplying deliberate misinformation like calling barbarians natural allies if they aren't natural allies and share nothing in common with natural allies. I don't think stupidmeals would go that far.

It would make so much more sense if barbarians can sometimes be slightly unusual natural allies and Vurp failed to mention the exception to the rules. Especially if the majority of barbarians have no commanders and therefore have no purses and act exactly like any other natural ally with shmuckers, then it is a very minor exception to the rules.

Edit: I just remembered Book 1, Page 79a, Klog #9 where it tells us that gobwins and various others have no cities. It's curious that they took Gobwin Knob and stayed there until Stanley came to take it back, and yet have no cities. Maybe they just prefer to live underground and uncharacteristically chose to claim that city as part of whatever strange plan motivated them to kill Saline IV, and so Parson just means habitually have no cities, except in this case. I also notice that he doesn't say "all natural allies." He just lists a few examples, leaving it open for other kinds of natural allies to have cities.
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