Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lilwik » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:30 pm

0beron wrote:For a "Barbarian" unit to appear out of nowhere and be a Royal would be the ultimate proof they were "chosen by the Titans" and destined to Rule
But all sorts of barbarians pop all over the place. No matter how rarely it happens, it's not really special either. Popping randomly would seem to make royals no more special than casters or any other unit that can pop at random. It certainly means those random royals don't have any kind of lineage, and certainly not one that goes back to the days of the Titans.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:38 pm

Lilwik wrote:[Royals popping in the wild/abandoned Capitals] certainly means those random royals don't have any kind of lineage, and certainly not one that goes back to the days of the Titans.
What makes you say that? Erflings don't have any "parents" in the normal biological sense to draw lineage from. Popping is their version of lineage, so popping randomly as a Royal could very well qualify as "lineage" for their ego-inflated purposes. They could easily claim "I popped as a Royal, therefore the Titans must be my 'parents' so there."
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lilwik » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:48 pm

0beron wrote:They could easily claim "I popped as a Royal, therefore the Titans must be my 'parents' so there."
It might be fair for units who pop in the wild to claim the Titans as parents but it seems a bit extreme. I don't think there's any way to say that without it sounding like boasting. We've certainly never heard any Erfworlder say it. All the royals claim is that their lineage goes back to the days of the Titans, meaning that the Titans created the first royals while the Titans were still in Erfworld and the royals have been keeping themselves going ever since. They're not just saying that their lineage was started by the Titans; they're saying that it started in the days of the Titans, which is a time in the ancient past.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lipkin » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:38 pm

Just realized the creation and enforcement of contracts is probably natural signamancy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:40 pm

Lipkin wrote:Just realized the creation and enforcement of contracts is probably natural signamancy.
Why do you think that? To me it more closely resembles Duty, which is a Natural Thinkamancy.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby El_Chupacabra » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:06 pm

I'm betting the deal between Charlie and Banhammer is:

Charlie gets all the cities and will raze all for Schmuckers -- including Wanda's graveyard. And gets his anonymous past back by contractually "blocking" others from discussing this while they live.
Banhammer gets to return to obscurity.

Charlie got the much, MUCH better deal, as it unfolds.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby arkerpay » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:08 pm

0beron wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Just realized the creation and enforcement of contracts is probably natural signamancy.

Why do you think that? To me it more closely resembles Duty, which is a Natural Thinkamancy.


He was making a play on words. Similar to "Turnamancy"...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:32 pm

Sign on the dotted line. After all, Thinkamancy involves strings, and as the Carnies will attest, there are no strings attached with their contracts.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby MonteCristo » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:24 pm

0beron wrote:
Lilwik wrote:[Royals popping in the wild/abandoned Capitals] certainly means those random royals don't have any kind of lineage, and certainly not one that goes back to the days of the Titans.
What makes you say that? Erflings don't have any "parents" in the normal biological sense to draw lineage from. Popping is their version of lineage, so popping randomly as a Royal could very well qualify as "lineage" for their ego-inflated purposes. They could easily claim "I popped as a Royal, therefore the Titans must be my 'parents' so there."


And why doesn't the non-royal barbarian get to claim that the titans are its "parents"? Do recall that non-royals are also capable of having "families" as was the case of Wanda and her father and brother. Really, if royals popped like barbarians did, it would make them seem LESS special. Afterall, when it comes down to it, they would be popped just like any other non-royal unit. In a sense, being a royal is not really anything all that special; sure your stats might be slightly better, but then again, there are casters who have abilities that no royal warlord would ever have; and various other units also have their own share of advantages over others

One way Royals differ from non-royals is the fact that they can only come from other royals. If you are a Royal then its proof positive that you are descended from the original Royals because there is no other way you could have popped as a Royal. You are a royal, so that means your ruler is a royal, which means the ruler that popped them was also royal, and so on. If the Royals were indeed the first units/rulers that the titans created, then being a royal means that you are a descendant of those original royal sides.

El_Chupacabra wrote:I'm betting the deal between Charlie and Banhammer is:

Charlie gets all the cities and will raze all for Schmuckers -- including Wanda's graveyard. And gets his anonymous past back by contractually "blocking" others from discussing this while they live.
Banhammer gets to return to obscurity.

Charlie got the much, MUCH better deal, as it unfolds.

No, i doubt the deal works THAT favorably for Charlie. Jack stated that Charlie paid a high price to keep his secrets hidden. Whatever deal Banhammer struck with Charlie, its a deal that will cost him a lot.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby El_Chupacabra » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:11 am

MonteCristo wrote:

El_Chupacabra wrote:I'm betting the deal between Charlie and Banhammer is:

Charlie gets all the cities and will raze all for Schmuckers -- including Wanda's graveyard. And gets his anonymous past back by contractually "blocking" others from discussing this while they live.
Banhammer gets to return to obscurity.

Charlie got the much, MUCH better deal, as it unfolds.

No, i doubt the deal works THAT favorably for Charlie. Jack stated that Charlie paid a high price to keep his secrets hidden. Whatever deal Banhammer struck with Charlie, its a deal that will cost him a lot.


That's not an unreasonable assertion.... But I'm thinking that Banhammer is not a skilled negotiator and Jack may be seeing the "high price" as something relatively high for a three-city side, but it's actually an actual bargain for a side that is an economic powerhouse with a "glass jaw" weak point -- a side that actually can afford to pay a "high price" to hide information may consider it a bargain in relative terms.

Maybe they split the razed cities, such that both reap an economic whirlwind. Half the cities might seem a "high price" to Jack for those secrets, but considering that if Banhammer simply returned his cities to obscurity with a little coin to show for the troubles, and with no power to actually divulge information on Charlie to other adversaries for a price, especially if the information was actually worth all the cities of Haffaton and then some.... Might be a bargain for Charlie and only a mild benefit for Faq, relatively speaking. We do see, after all, which side thrived in the Hundred-Turns after the fall of Haffaton.

Metaphorically, I'm thinking something akin to wargames where one country gives away knights technology to a small side tucked away in a small corner of the world, along with the income stolen from their biggest adversary, in exchange for the other half of that income, plus erasing knowledge that (I'm stretching here), that country cannot fortify their capitol city, ever. The small side may think, "Wow, they gave us knights and half the loot! Huge price paid just to not publish that info to the highest bidder!" Meanwhile, the country has an air force, tanks, and nukes. Plus, it can always drop a diplomatic hint to a tactically powerful, yet strategically incompetent, neighbor that perhaps they should search the local mountains.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Jabberwocky » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:42 am

"He was looking down at them all, seemingly healthy and whole. He made eye contact with everyone but Jillian."

I wonder if Banhammer had it explained to him in terms simple enough to be insulting that Jillian did everything she could to save the side, while Banhammer nearly got everyone killed.

And it does seem that they just pack up and go home rather than raze all of the cities and load up their treasury for a few hundred turns
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Tonot » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:20 am

jkosta wrote:
Jinren wrote:Perhaps he means that he experienced the vision alone, projected for him via Archon? The Archons are providing the service but not sharing in the experience as his peers.

Was it ever confirmed that Banhammer is a warlord and not a caster? I assume it would have been important by now if he could cast but can't recall ever seeing it mentioned. In any case, assuming he is a warlord, he'd have no way to engage in whatever magic is required for visions without at least some assistance.

I suddenly wonder if the entire court culture of Faq arose because Banhammer was unhappy about being popped as a non-caster.

I assumed "vision quest" referred to "high on heroin flower smoke".



Me too. :)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby ftl » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:49 am

Jabberwocky wrote:I wonder if Banhammer had it explained to him in terms simple enough to be insulting that Jillian did everything she could to save the side, while Banhammer nearly got everyone killed.


Seems unlikely. At the moment, most of the court (Jack, Wanda, Marie excepted) believe the opposite story - that Jillian picked a fight with and croaked someone who was about to adopt Banhammer's principles of peace and so on and so forth.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby WarFAN » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:58 am

Maybe in the next update we will see Jillian´s reaction to Banhammer´s terms... Returning to be an impossible bubble kingdom and nothing about "building a dream side" in exchange of the good will of another mercenary side as is Charlescomm...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby 0beron » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:03 am

arkerpay wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Just realized the creation and enforcement of contracts is probably natural signamancy.
He was making a play on words. Similar to "Turnamancy"...
OOOOOOOOH, hur dur. Yeah that's an interesting point, I wonder if we'll get clarification about that from Rob. I don't think we've ever had an effect that mechanically made sense for one school while fitting as a pun for another.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lamech » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:42 pm

What could be a good deal from Banhammer's perspective? He probably doesn't want talking field units disbanded or slaughtered. He wants to return to secrecy. He wants shmuckers to not need merc work.

So here would be a good deal from his perspective
1) Some of the shmuckers from the razed cities. All units in the attacked cities are captured and sold to the high elves.
2) Mutual non-disclosure.
3) Mutual Peace.
4) Some use of Charlies Link to heal Wanda, rebuild or whatever.

The price they pay is jack. (Little "j"). They save Wanda the grand caster. They get more shmuckers then they otherwise could have. (Other people will attack the cities and so will Charlie.) They get their precious three city kingdom back with no secrets lost. Charlie get's his secrets. They save the people they wanted to save. No one dies. The only point of tension would be the share of the raided cities. And really that is probably just a bonus from each side's perspective.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Jabberwocky » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:50 pm

ftl wrote:
Seems unlikely. At the moment, most of the court (Jack, Wanda, Marie excepted) believe the opposite story - that Jillian picked a fight with and croaked someone who was about to adopt Banhammer's principles of peace and so on and so forth.


Yeah, but he was talking to Charlie right? And if Charlie wants to tall you that you're a smeghead loser, Charlie tells you that you're a Smeghead loser with the Thinkamancy cranked up to 11.

And Charlie might, because FAQ is small, poor and probably worthless in his eyes.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby 0beron » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:54 pm

Jabberwocky wrote:Because FAQ is small, poor and probably worthless in [Charlie's] eyes.
Oh I think the opposite in fact. FAQ may be weak, but they have a wealth of magical knowledge. They're no threat to him, but they are an excellent pawn for him to play with and a resource to use. Think about it, he's manipulating them to his benefit now, and does it again later with Jillian's FAQ. They're his little toys.
And don't forget that Charlie himself abandoned the idea of world domination...so on a personal note he might actually be curious about Banhammer's philosophy. To study.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby ftl » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:56 pm

Charlie's diplomatic and pragmatic. When he talks to Banhammer, it will be for the sole purpose of manipulating him; probably with the goal of making sure their side stays tiny, secretive, and that Charlie's secrets stay hidden forever. Why would he bother telling Banhammer anything like the truth ("yeah, Jillian saved your stupid behind")? Charlie doesn't give away truth for free, and insulting Banhammer (by telling the truth) doesn't seem like it would make Banhammer more likely to listen to Charlie and do what Charlie says.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:05 pm

Some things are more important than money.
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