Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:09 pm

Lipkin wrote:Every instance of turnamancy includes some instance of turning. Not every instance includes physical movement.
It may not be physical movement, but it's all still movement in a broad sense. The fact that Eyemancy has Motion as one of its elements is very suggestive that Erfworld takes Motion broadly, and surely there should be some latitude in our thinking if we are seriously considering the possibility that Turnamancy is powered by puns.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:19 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:While you might think that Turnamancy is based on movement and acceleration, I believe (with more evidence in my opinion) that it is based on applications of the word "turn".
Why does that have more evidence? You're noticing that every instance of Turnamancy involves the word "turn" (even the paddlewheel barge, I admit), and I'm noticing that every instance of Turnamancy involves movement. On that they seem equal. Then the movement side has the Motion element in its favor, which seems to tip the scales away from the word-based theory. We should also ask if any other disciplines are based on words, because it would seem strange for Turnamancy to be the only one, or even in a minority. If Erfworld magic were based on words, then I'd expect it to be more open about it; I'd expect Parson to be excited to realize that in order to understand magic all he needs to do is think about the names of the disciplines and the various puns he he can make using them.
Because you are really stretching it when you say things like increasing production, turning one unit from one side to another, and changing who's Turn it is are an instances of 'movement'. My way of thinking has more evidence because every instance we've seen is in some way clearly based on the word 'Turn' where what you're saying is really stretching 'motion' to its furthest possible application, like you said a (very, very) broad sense. Even if we're thinking in 'puns' it's based on direct observation while yours is more extrapolation of what we understand of the mechanics of magic... which we don't really know anything about apart from names/labels. We really don't know what the elements or axes totally mean.

The conversation about Rules is going nowhere and is kind of off topic anyways, so this is the last argument I make, and is really just my opinion on something you said that I think is a perfect example of what I'm saying. I think the extent of what Rob thought about the volcano and fire was exactly what Parson said: "Rocks fall, everybody dies." How much damage the volcano 'trap' did and what its exact mechanics are weren't important because at the end of the day it was about the story. Though there were survivor, apparently, it was meant to simple decimate everything at GK and the details behind it were unimportant even if (a big 'if') they are stated up now.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby multilis » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:34 pm

Here is what turnomancy comes from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGoLq3c4SDc
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:39 pm

multilis wrote:Here is what turnomancy comes from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGoLq3c4SDc

Someone get this man/woman a medal. Any medal. I think the Nobel Prize is in order.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:37 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:Because you are really stretching it when you say things like increasing production, turning one unit from one side to another, and changing who's Turn it is are an instances of 'movement'.
"Increasing production" doesn't seem to include the word "turn" either. Of course what we are really talking about is accelerating production, a clear connection to motion. The fact that faster production takes fewer turns is a rather indirect connection to the word "turn".

Sir Shadow wrote:Even if we're thinking in 'puns' it's based on direct observation while yours is more extrapolation of what we understand of the mechanics of magic... which we don't really know anything about apart from names/labels. We really don't know what the elements or axes totally mean.
I think we have to assume that the names of the axes are not wildly misleading. Erfworlders speak the same language we do. When an Erfworlder uses a word the odds are dramatically in favor of it meaning approximately the same thing that it would mean when a Stupidworlder uses the word, or at least somewhere in the same neighborhood. At least the movement theory might get us closer to a possible understanding of the elements of magic, while the pun theory requires that we ignore Turnamancy's place on the grid.

The biggest reason that I think Turnamancy is about Motion is that it's the only alternative that I an think of to Turnamancy being about puns, and I would be so brutally disappointed with Erfworld if it turned out that magic were based on puns. That's the worst system of magic that I can imagine and anything would be preferable to that. Fortunately that's not just wishful thinking; Erfworld has a long record of amazing quality that backs up my belief that it would never do anything so awful as reveal that its magic is pun-powered.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby ftl » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:46 am

Lilwik wrote:It's not speculation to point out that every use for Turnamancy that we've seen has been about movement.


Yes, yes it is speculation to do that. You have to seriously stretch the definition of "movement" to conclude that "switching sides" is movement, or that "forcing someone to end their turn" is movement, or "speeding up production" is movement.

It's not speculation to point out that Turnamancy has Motion as its only element.


I agree. However, it is definitely speculation to try to figure out how the "elements" and "axes" that go into a discipline give you the things that that discipline does.

I think your logic goes the other way - "since Turnamancy has Motion as its only element, THEREFORE everything turnamancy does has to be Movement". And then you stretch the definition of "movement" to make that work.

Which is reasonable speculation. But speculation nevertheless.

Why does that have more evidence? You're noticing that every instance of Turnamancy involves the word "turn" (even the paddlewheel barge, I admit), and I'm noticing that every instance of Turnamancy involves movement. On that they seem equal.


I'd disagree with that. I think it's a *huge* stretch to say that every instance of turnamancy involves movement. I would agree with it as a tentative conclusion - based on the fact that Turnamancy has the motion element, that it may actually be appropriate to stretch the definition of "movement" to include all those things. I wouldn't agree with that as a direct observation.

I don't think that gives me any predictive power at all, because if I stretch the word 'movement' to mean all those things, I could just as easily stretch it to mean anything else really - if you want, anything that Happens can be reinterpreted as movement.

We should also ask if any other disciplines are based on words, because it would seem strange for Turnamancy to be the only one, or even in a minority.

Basically all the ones we've seen are!

Thinkamancy. It has to do with thoughts - telepathy, mind control, that sort of thing.
Dirtamancy. Has to do with dirt - the earth, and related things. Crap is dirt I suppose.
Dittomancy. Dittomancy doubles things, as implied by "ditto".
Croakamancy has to do with controlling the croaked.
Hippiemancy/flower power - has to do with peace and love, man. And flowers.
Predictamancy has to do with predicting the future.
Hat magic does things with hats.
Moneymancy does things with money.
Shockamancy shocks people with lightning.

If Erfworld magic were based on words, then I'd expect it to be more open about it;


It IS open about it!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lipkin » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:00 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Every instance of turnamancy includes some instance of turning. Not every instance includes physical movement.
It may not be physical movement, but it's all still movement in a broad sense. The fact that Eyemancy has Motion as one of its elements is very suggestive that Erfworld takes Motion broadly, and surely there should be some latitude in our thinking if we are seriously considering the possibility that Turnamancy is powered by puns.

Not powered by puns. Created by Rob, because of puns.

And Eyemancy includes motion because it includes Findamancy, which has summoning as part of it's abilities. Moving something from one place to another is motion.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lilwik » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:59 am

ftl wrote:However, it is definitely speculation to try to figure out how the "elements" and "axes" that go into a discipline give you the things that that discipline does.
I agree that it is risky speculation to try to use the axes to predict what a discipline will be able to do, but it's far more reasonable to merely assume that the axes are somehow connected to what the discipline does. That assumption seems to rule out the word-based power of Turnamancy.

ftl wrote:I think your logic goes the other way - "since Turnamancy has Motion as its only element, THEREFORE everything turnamancy does has to be Movement". And then you stretch the definition of "movement" to make that work.
Perhaps that's true, but I would say it differently. I see Dirtamancy has Matter as its only element and it builds stuff. Maybe there is a pattern there, so I look at Turnamancy and see a lot of abilities connected to speed and change and it's just begging to be a parallel to Dirtamancy: Dirtamancy for Motion instead of Matter. If I have to stretch a little bit, I think that's just because of the uncertainty about the exact meaning of the Motion axis.

ftl wrote:I don't think that gives me any predictive power at all, because if I stretch the word 'movement' to mean all those things, I could just as easily stretch it to mean anything else really - if you want, anything that Happens can be reinterpreted as movement.
It's not that bad. If it's true, it does have predictive power. We should expect Turnamancers to be able to add and remove speed from things. It suggests that Janis's Time Out was Turnamancy. It suggests that the boundaries between hexes are Natural Turnamancy. It suggests that Turnamancy should be able to control wind. These are the kind of powerful broad abilities that I would expect from Turnamancy as a parallel to Dirtamancy, while more delicate and precise Motion abilities such as changing how things move in ways other than speed would belong to the other disciplines of Spookism.

On the other hand, if it is a pun based power then many of those things would be excluded, and things would be included that the Motion theory would exclude. For example, the motion theory wouldn't have Turnamancy be helpful in choosing the correct exit from a highway or navigating a maze. In the Magic Kingdom, the motion theory wouldn't have the Turnamancers be the ones who magically turn in wrongdoers to the enforcement council.

ftl wrote:Thinkamancy. It has to do with thoughts - telepathy, mind control, that sort of thing.
That just means that Thinkamancy is well named because it is about thought and the mind, not the word "think". That word doesn't have any alternate meanings that would allow Thinkamancy to show off its word-based powers.
ftl wrote:Dirtamancy. Has to do with dirt - the earth, and related things. Crap is dirt I suppose.
And what about working with gossip and scandalous information? I presume that if the powers of Dirtamancy are based on the word "dirt" then Dirtamancers would be big on that. We'll just have to wait and see.
ftl wrote:Croakamancy has to do with controlling the croaked.
Does Croakamancy also have power over low pitched raspy noises? Do any of these disciplines really show evidence of getting their power from words as opposed to just having a fitting name?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lipkin » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:16 am

If Dirtamancy ended up being related to gossip or intel gathering, I wouldn't be surprised. The walls have ears, you know. Fact is, just because Dirtamancy hasn't yet been linked to gossip, and Croakamancy hasn't been shown to have a relationship with the literal croaking sounds, doesn't mean they won't.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lipkin » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:02 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXzLqCqSy1w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzYO0joolR0

Good call.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby SNfinity » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:46 pm

ftl wrote:On the other hand, if it is a pun based power then many of those things would be excluded, and things would be included that the Motion theory would exclude. For example, the motion theory wouldn't have Turnamancy be helpful in choosing the correct exit from a highway or navigating a maze. In the Magic Kingdom, the motion theory wouldn't have the Turnamancers be the ones who magically turn in wrongdoers to the enforcement council.

ftl wrote:Thinkamancy. It has to do with thoughts - telepathy, mind control, that sort of thing.
That just means that Thinkamancy is well named because it is about thought and the mind, not the word "think". That word doesn't have any alternate meanings that would allow Thinkamancy to show off its word-based powers.
ftl wrote:Dirtamancy. Has to do with dirt - the earth, and related things. Crap is dirt I suppose.
And what about working with gossip and scandalous information? I presume that if the powers of Dirtamancy are based on the word "dirt" then Dirtamancers would be big on that. We'll just have to wait and see.
ftl wrote:Croakamancy has to do with controlling the croaked.
Does Croakamancy also have power over low pitched raspy noises? Do any of these disciplines really show evidence of getting their power from words as opposed to just having a fitting name?


Pun theory states that all spells associated with a discipline are based on wordplay and references, not that any given discipline can do anything that could in any way be construed as wordplay by an inebriated amateur stand-up comedian on open mic night.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:04 pm

Actually... some people did propose in the past that maybe Wanda has frog and crow powers. I still say that Turnamancy messes with units heads:Image
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Tonot » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:12 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Actually... some people did propose in the past that maybe Wanda has frog and crow powers. I still say that Turnamancy messes with units heads:Image



http://research.vtc.vt.edu/briefs/2013/ ... -ultrasou/

The research of Jamie Tyler, assistant professor at the Virginia Tech Carilion Research Institute, is featured in a three-page article in today’s issue of New Scientist magazine. Written by Anil Ananthaswamy, a correspondent for New Scientist, the piece details recent advancements in our understanding of how the brain works, specifically in how minute physical perturbations appear to play a large role in how neurons interact with each other.

The article provides a historical context and current overview of our understanding of how physical stimuli joins electrical and chemical signals to form neural networks *

:shock: :o

"Tick-tock ergo sum"

*My underlining and bolding for emphasis. The articles in New Scientist and Nature Reviews Neuroscience, are very interesting too.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... works.html
http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v13/n ... n3383.html
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby drachefly » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:28 pm

umm... Hold the presses, the brain is made of physical matter?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:11 pm

If that was sarcasm, allow me to summarize. They are saying that there are actually tiny levers and "springs" inside of cells that convert mechanical force into chemical and electrical signals and back again in the body. So they are saying that the function of an organic brain in our world includes actual tiny clockwork machines that are connected to the other systems you usually think of as being brain activity. Thus the reason ultrasonic brain stimulation works, along with other mechanical mechanisms for altering your brain's activity.

Also since I am a contrarian dick, I will ask on the subject of Turnamancy this: What is up with Ansom's flying carpet?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby ftl » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:22 pm

Eh, physicists make everything into springs. Literally. If you take any potential energy minimum, the motion of an object in that potential can be modeled to first order as a simple harmonic oscillator (i.e. spring). "X is made from levers and springs!" really doesn't say anything more than "x is a physical object".

A better summary goes into the specifics - that the guy figured out how to use sound waves to affect the way neurons interact. The guy figured out how mechanical stimuli are carried around by proteins. That's pretty damn cool! It's cool because it's a noninvasive way of affecting the brain, both for therapy and for study; it's cool because it's a step along the path to understanding the brain, how the physical contact between neurons interacts with the electrical signaling.

But "the brain is actually levers and springs" ... well, it's no better a simplification now than it was before.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Tonot » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:20 pm

ftl wrote:Eh, physicists make everything into springs. Literally. If you take any potential energy minimum, the motion of an object in that potential can be modeled to first order as a simple harmonic oscillator (i.e. spring). "X is made from levers and springs!" really doesn't say anything more than "x is a physical object".

A better summary goes into the specifics - that the guy figured out how to use sound waves to affect the way neurons interact. The guy figured out how mechanical stimuli are carried around by proteins. That's pretty damn cool! It's cool because it's a noninvasive way of affecting the brain, both for therapy and for study; it's cool because it's a step along the path to understanding the brain, how the physical contact between neurons interacts with the electrical signaling.

But "the brain is actually levers and springs" ... well, it's no better a simplification now than it was before.



Actually, from the articles I read, HE HIMSELF uses the cog-work analogy, and implied that there was evidence that the physical contact was mediating the electro-chemical signalling between axon and dendrite, and also between dendrites themselves. That the brain does work its magic mechanically, and one telling point is that all brains can be instantly "knocked out" with a blow, yet there seems to be no electrical basis for that. When consciousness is a function of a lot of tiny "cogs" working back and forward, a blow is the obvious way of turning off the toy.

You should read the articles, it was quite stunning.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lipkin » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:55 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Also since I am a contrarian dick, I will ask on the subject of Turnamancy this: What is up with Ansom's flying carpet?

Probably made by Ace, and is not a turnamancy item?
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