Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:03 pm

Lipkin wrote:Also since I am a contrarian dick, I will ask on the subject of Turnamancy this: What is up with Ansom's flying carpet?
Probably made by Ace, and is not a turnamancy item?
I'd agree that because Ace did make a jetpack, flight is within the realm of Dollamancy (among others)...but I'm not sure the carpet was made by Ace. It seems too powerful, do we ever get confirmation its a magic item or might it be an artifact?
Last edited by 0beron on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Tonot » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:21 pm

It does seem a little over powered. Maybe they found it somewhere?. A big boy dropped it, and ran away?.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lilwik » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:13 pm

Lipkin wrote:Probably made by Ace, and is not a turnamancy item?
If the flying carpet is an item and not some bizarre mount-creature, then it seems to be pretty clearly a self-powered vehicle. I see no reason to suspect that it's anything other than Turnamancy, but it could still be made by Ace since he probably knows some Turnamancy. Turnamancy is in the same class as Dollamancy, and those jetpacks that Ace made look suspiciously like self-powered vehicles.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby ftl » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:36 pm

If I remember right, people debated this before, and I think came up with a potential distinction between "self-powered vehicle" and "item that just flies someone around". It could be whether the thing has Move of its own, or whether it uses the Move of the person using it.

Like, if Ansom has six move left, could he fly as far as he can on the carpet, then dismount and march six hexes? Then it's a self-powered vehicle, traveling around on it didn't use the rider's move, and would require Turnamancy to make. Or can he move just six hexes, regardless of whether he's on the carpet or not? Then it's just a thing that gives him Flying, basically.

I don't think we've gotten definitive answers about this for either the jetpack, carpet, or the barge that Jillian used, so this is basically unfounded speculation. It could potentially be a distinction, and could let Turnamancers still be the only discipline that makes self-powered vehicles while still allowing for other disciplines to make cool things that look very much like self-powered vehicles but don't count as such under the rules.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lilwik » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:27 pm

ftl wrote:I don't think we've gotten definitive answers about this for either the jetpack, carpet, or the barge that Jillian used, so this is basically unfounded speculation. It could potentially be a distinction, and could let Turnamancers still be the only discipline that makes self-powered vehicles while still allowing for other disciplines to make cool things that look very much like self-powered vehicles but don't count as such under the rules.
The idea of "cool things that look very much like self-powered vehicles but don't count as such" is obviously an enormous reach. Unless there's serious evidence to suggest that something like that exists then we should probably ignore the possibility. It is far more plausible that Ace knows some Turnamancy since we already have many examples of casters knowing multiple disciplines of magic. It is all unproven, so there's no way to really know, but we can still make judgements about the plausibility of unproven theories.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby ftl » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:37 pm

Heh. I suppose I feel it's the opposite; if we see a caster cast something, it's the most natural guess that they're casting something from their specialty unless we've had it specifically stated otherwise. It feels like much more of a stretch to say that we saw a dollamancer making a turnamancy item (and this wasn't specifically mentioned in the text) rather than concluding that dollamancy items can be similar to turnamancy items in some respect.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Lilwik » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:31 pm

ftl wrote:I suppose I feel it's the opposite; if we see a caster cast something, it's the most natural guess that they're casting something from their specialty unless we've had it specifically stated otherwise.
That's interesting! So then I take it that you think that the thing that Isaac is doing in Book 2, Page 112 is actually Thinkamancy that just happens to be similar to Lookamancy in some respect? Since we know Wanda can cast in a wide variety of disciplines, I find the stated discipline of a caster to be very weak evidence for the discipline of a spell. The effect of a spell, on the other hand, seems like rock-solid evidence.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby ftl » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:32 am

Well, if we hadn't had an update saying that Isaac's also a Lookamancer, then I'd be very conflicted! It looks like lookamancy because, well, it looks like he's Looking at something with the way the spell looks, but Isaac's a thinkamancer... but as it is, we do have other source of information - from the extra book pages, we know that Isaac's also a master-class Lookamancer!

So you're right that Wanda casting a spell isn't much evidence for a discipline, because it's been stated that she's proficient with lots of disciplines and it hasn't been stated which ones.

...you know, on second thought, I think I'd be more general - I trust *narrative* reasons much more than anything else. If the text makes it superficially obvious that a spell should come from a particular discipline - using whatever narrative methods the comic feels like using, from sound effects to visual effects to who casts it to what people say about it - I trust that, and maybe use that to try to figure out generalities, like what the disciplines mean or what spells should go in which discipline. It's going to be a long time before I ever accept any reasoning of the form "well, X spell seemed superficially like this discipline, but because of its effects it probably isn't."

Just read http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_30 . Ace Hardware talks about how accessories are his favorite Dollamancy, so much better than those stupid cloth golems. Then later, he makes accessories - a jetpack, a laser pistol, something else. It seems pretty clear based on the text that all those things are dollamancy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby raphfrk » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:46 am

ftl wrote:Or can he move just six hexes, regardless of whether he's on the carpet or not? Then it's just a thing that gives him Flying, basically.


"Self-powered" Vehicles could also change the movement cost. The peddle boat might have allowed Jillian to travel twice as far and/or suffer no terrain penalties (but means she would be restricted to rivers)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby multilis » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:31 am

Unclear whether it was Ace alone or also help from cummins for jetpack. Cummins/Hat magic might have just helped with the new "hat"/crown, or may have helped with other stuff as well. And each caster may have done a little in other related spheres to assist, as Isaac and Wanda cast outside their disciplines, including wanda making a doll. Olive's garden involved a combo of casters, similar with eyebooks, etc.

Possible that some dollamancers or their helper casters are good enough at closely related field weirdomancy or another field that they can contribute a little to a magic item.

If carpet was made by casters, imo too little info to accurately guess how. (many options) Probably not ace helping though as he would have bragged about it to Cummins in his speech.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 074

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:17 pm

I guess I'm going to be the one to have to say it. We've only seen carpet moving when its been rolled. I'm sorry. I'll just go now. No wait I won't, first this:
http://youtu.be/T7rG7PgBAJw?t=1m2s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnObQFTLiX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCw96lHGuB0
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