Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:03 pm

WarFAN wrote:I never get tired to repeat this:
King Banhammer is a galactic-level idiot. I will be very pleased when (if) Rob shows his croaking/uncroaking.
Eh.....I'm not too hopeful. We were so excited to see Olive die...and her death scene was profoundly underwhelming in terms of intrigue. So while I'm hoping for some poetic scene for Banhammer's death in which he has some ironic epiphany or something similarly epic and befitting his idiocy....I know better than to expect it.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Whispri » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:07 pm

If Wanda ever needed justification for knocking over Faq, it's here with the exploitation of the forcible drug addiction. Banhammer's every bit as evil as Olive.

I know some are suggesting that this is an offer of a cure, but I point to the flashback during Book 2 in which Wanda is seen, at Faq, with a flower in her hair.

I saw someone mention memory wipes for Gillian, but there's been a small bit of retconjury for one for the summer updates, at least in the wiki. Spot the difference. That does rather imply that she knew that he knew about the old Faq.

BakaGrappler wrote:And I just wanna say real quick, Rob, the updated Epilogue 8... whoa. I wouldn't want to see the inside of Parson's head the moment Wanda told him she could see through Archon's Eyes. (I wonder if they'll eventually get an Archon named Diamond...) It was just, complete confirmation of all of Parson's supposedly unfounded fears from the Home Coming chapters after book 1. I imagine the inside of Parson's head being something close to an echoing scream.

And was I the only one unnerved when Wanda said "You must get me some more"? It's almost like they are toys. Fucking Erfworld sensibilities.

And I would really like to ask the question of Wanda... were you eavesdropping on any of the strategy conversations I had with the Archons while I was garrisoned at the Capitol?

No, he still looks completely crazy. I mean as if she'd want to feel what the poor Archons would feel if he booped them!

I'd say it's rather more like they're a valuable type of Unit and having them as part of her army can help her win battles with less loss of life than would otherwise be the case.

Does it matter? She's the Chief Caster and at the time Parson was merely a garrison commander. There was nothing he was cleared to know that she wasn't.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:49 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:First fall of FAQ, all cities lost, Banhammer lives. Casters are in the field with Banhammer, survive. Casters remain a "FAQ" unit, still has Duty, Loyalty, Obedience to Banhammer. I suspect this is because they were stacked with Banhammer.
You suspect wrong. Many of the casters weren't stacked with Banhammer and they also remained with Faq. The only casters that Banhammer took with him into the field were Jack, Marie, and Orwell as seen in Episode 57. The rest were surely in the Magic Kingdom and appeared in Efbaum shortly after the portal opened.

GWvsJohn wrote:Jillian is captive and heir, survives. Jillian remains a "FAQ" unit, still has Duty, Loyalty, Obedience to Banhammer. I suspect this is because she is an heir and can survive the fall of a side in the field.
We don't know that heirs can survive in the field. We know that most units can't and we've never seen an heir do it, so it's shaky that heirs are an exception to the rule. On top of that I don't see why there's any reason to be surprised that Jillian remained loyal to Faq.

GWvsJohn wrote:Option 2. She is in FAQ, Banhammer croaks. She flees and goes to the MK before the city falls. She turns Barbarian when the side falls, because she is in the MK.
In this case Marie would still be loyal to Faq and Jillian because all of Faq became barbarian together, just like in the first fall of Faq. There's no turning involved.

GWvsJohn wrote:Option 3. She is in FAQ, Banhammer croaks. She flees and goes to the MK before the city falls. She turns Barbarian before the side falls, proving Commanders can go Barbarian without permission from Ruler.
I wouldn't expect units to need to ask permission before turning. Wanda seemed to be convinced that Jillian might turn without permission, so I'm convinced. This option raises the tricky question of why Marie would betray Faq when Marie seems to like Jillian.

GWvsJohn wrote:In all cases Jillian is the field, survives, becomes Barbarian because she is heir.
Jillian was actually the ruler of Faq when she became barbarian, not an heir.

GWvsJohn wrote:Of those options, 2 and 3 seems the most plausible by far.
I agree that they are far more plausible than Option 1, but Option 2 and 3 seem trivially different from 4 and 5, so I don't see why you prefer 2 and 3.

GWvsJohn wrote:I think a unit would "know" when the Ruler changed, but in none of the scenarios does it matter.
It might help explain why Marie would choose to turn. Marie probably knew exactly what was coming and so if she would turn because of Banhammer's death she might as well turn in advance of the actual event, but I hope that Marie would want to spare Banhammer from witnessing her defection.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Whispri » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:00 pm

Lilwik wrote:
GWvsJohn wrote:Jillian is captive and heir, survives. Jillian remains a "FAQ" unit, still has Duty, Loyalty, Obedience to Banhammer. I suspect this is because she is an heir and can survive the fall of a side in the field.
We don't know that heirs can survive in the field. We know that most units can't and we've never seen an heir do it, so it's shaky that heirs are an exception to the rule. On top of that I don't see why there's any reason to be surprised that Jillian remained loyal to Faq.

Actually we've seen Wanda do just that. See also: Gillian's survival of the second fall of Faq and the rise of Stanley following the Gobwin uprising.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:14 pm

Whispri wrote:Actually we've seen Wanda do just that. See also: Gillian's survival of the second fall of Faq and the rise of Stanley following the Gobwin uprising.
Every one of them was a ruler at the time their sides fell. For Wanda it was especially obvious since we even got to see her experiencing her ruler senses. See Book 0, Episode 26, a very note-worthy episode because it's also the first time we see what disbanding looks like. An uncroaked Banhammer actually fought in the battle that lead to the second fall of Faq, so Jillian was ruler long before Faq actually fell. Stanley must have been ruler because the Gobwins couldn't actually have captured the capital without dealing with Saline IV first; even one unit of an enemy side is enough to make a city zone disputed.
Last edited by Lilwik on Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby GWvsJohn » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:17 pm

Lilwik wrote:...


Thank you Whispri, you made part of my arugment :)

Also, I apologize for using turn as a synonym for become and not only in the strict Erf-rules usage of turn to another side.

That being said, Lilwik, your opinion on how Barbarians work is so far from what the strip has said and what everyone else on this board thinks, I have to wonder if you're just messing with us.

Just because all the casters weren't in the illustration or specifically mentioned, doesn't mean they weren't there. Still, that poses a somewhat fuzz scenario. We've seen and heard multiple instances of field units disbanding without a ruler/capital. Perhaps casters are also an exception like heirs. Perhaps the rest of the court went barbarian in the MK and chose to rejoin FAQ when the had a capital.

Turning to another side is different than becoming a Barbarian. Units change sides for a variety of reasons. Units become barbarians under a few specific circumstances. Banhammer gives Jillian permission to go Barbarian, which implies she needs his permission.

2 and 3 use the explicit ways someone becomes Barbarian. 4 and 5 involve inventing a new rule.

Marie didn't "choose" to become a Barbarian. She was in the MK when the side fell. She had no choice.
I know how it works. And I'm not that confident.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby GWvsJohn » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:18 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Whispri wrote:Actually we've seen Wanda do just that. See also: Gillian's survival of the second fall of Faq and the rise of Stanley following the Gobwin uprising.
Every one of them was a ruler at the time their sides fell. For Wanda it was especially obvious since we even got to see her experiencing her ruler senses. See Book 0, Episode 26, a very note-worthy episode because it's also the first time we see what disbanding looks like. An uncroaked Banhammer actually fought in the battle that lead to the second fall of Faq, so Jillian was ruler long before Faq actually fell. Stanley must have been ruler because the Gobwins couldn't actually have captured the capital without dealing with Saline IV first; even one unit of an enemy side is enough to make a city zone disputed.


Jillian survived the first fall of FAQ as heir.
I know how it works. And I'm not that confident.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Xarx » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:33 pm

Whispri wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
GWvsJohn wrote:Jillian is captive and heir, survives. Jillian remains a "FAQ" unit, still has Duty, Loyalty, Obedience to Banhammer. I suspect this is because she is an heir and can survive the fall of a side in the field.
We don't know that heirs can survive in the field. We know that most units can't and we've never seen an heir do it, so it's shaky that heirs are an exception to the rule. On top of that I don't see why there's any reason to be surprised that Jillian remained loyal to Faq.

Actually we've seen Wanda do just that. See also: Gillian's survival of the second fall of Faq and the rise of Stanley following the Gobwin uprising.


In Wanda's case, she was actually the ruler (very briefly) when the side fell.

http://www.erfworld.com/2012/02/inner-p ... firepower-–-episode-026/

Jillian would have been, as well, since her father was not the last unit croaked in FAQ — I recall reading that the uncroaked Banhammer joined in the fight, though I'm not sure where to find that update.

We have no direct evidence either way for Stanley, but there's no reason to think it was any different. And in his case it's explicitly stated that the side didn't end when the capital fell.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079.jpg

Edit, okay severely sniped there, wow.

Also

Jillian survived the first fall of FAQ as heir.


Banhammer didn't croak that time. Ruler croaks without an heir, side ends, seems to be the rule.
Last edited by Xarx on Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:37 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:Just because all the casters weren't in the illustration or specifically mentioned, doesn't mean they weren't there.
It's not just that one episode. In the episodes that follow those three casters are the only ones mentioned, even when Banhammer gathers everyone together for the purpose of turning to Haffaton. I can't believe there is any doubt about this.

GWvsJohn wrote:We've seen and heard multiple instances of field units disbanding without a ruler/capital.
I don't think anyone doubts that happens.

GWvsJohn wrote:Perhaps casters are also an exception like heirs.
We've never seen any real evidence that heirs are exceptions. I could believe either way. The fact that Overlord Firebaugh promoted Wanda to heir just before he died says to me that casters probably can't survive in the field just because they are casters.

GWvsJohn wrote:Perhaps the rest of the court went barbarian in the MK and chose to rejoin FAQ when the had a capital.
There's no rejoining necessary. We know that they went barbarian at the first fall of Faq because Jillian went barbarian at the second fall of Faq, and that includes Banhammer and all the casters in his stack, and yet all of those casters remained loyal Faq units and Faq remained a real functional side that Wanda turned to. If Wanda could join Faq when its ruler and all its subjects were barbarians then why would anyone be mechanically forced to leave Faq?

GWvsJohn wrote:Turning to another side is different than becoming a Barbarian.
That seems like speculation.

GWvsJohn wrote:Banhammer gives Jillian permission to go Barbarian, which implies she needs his permission.
That doesn't sound like proper implication to me. I can give you permission for all sorts of things, but that doesn't imply that you need my permission for any of it. I'm sure having Banhammer's permission makes it far easier, but it's a stretch to think that it would be impossible without his permission.

GWvsJohn wrote:Marie didn't "choose" to become a Barbarian. She was in the MK when the side fell. She had no choice.
We don't know what Marie did. She might have become barbarian by defecting from Faq before the capital fell, thereby making it a choice to become barbarian. She might have been forced to become barbarian because all of Faq became barbarian when the capital fell, and then Marie would need to leave Faq at some later time, perhaps by choice or perhaps under orders from Jillian. We can only guess.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby ftl » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:45 pm

Lilwik wrote:There's no rejoining necessary. We know that they went barbarian at the first fall of Faq because Jillian went barbarian at the second fall of Faq,


No, we don't know that. You are assuming you understand the rules well enough to correctly INFER that they went barbarian at the first fall of FAQ, even though it has not been stated in the text that they have done so.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:32 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:You can turn barbarian without permission. When the second fall of Faq begins, Banhammer croaks. Marie flees to the Magic Kingdom and turns barbarian before the city falls.
That's speculation, right? I don't recall ever seeing that confirmed, but I can believe it. It would seem to be a gross violation of loyalty and duty, but it wouldn't surprise me if Marie knew back then about the plan for Parson and how Marie and Jillian were going to end up opposing each other, and knowing that might be enough to allow Marie to turn. Marie's duty might even have compelled her to turn, since having Marie supporting Parson might be the best thing for all of Erfworld, and therefore it will benefit Jillian in the long term if Jillian doesn't die.

Not speculation. Parson considered turning barbarian and claiming Spacerock to escape the inferno, at a time when he was entirely cut off from Stanley and had no way of getting permission. Charlie points out that the summoning spell may not let him, not that it's not something he could do without permission. And I assume that if a unit felt that the best thing for their side was for them to no longer be on it, they could turn barbarian.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:02 pm

ftl wrote:You are assuming you understand the rules well enough to correctly INFER that they went barbarian at the first fall of FAQ, even though it has not been stated in the text that they have done so.
That's true, but it seems like one of the safest inferences we can make. Can you think of any alternative mechanic? I cannot even imagine a rule that would allow Banhammer to not be barbarian at the first fall of Faq while causing Jillian to be barbarian at the second fall of Faq. I've seen it stated that a ruler lost her capital and instantly became barbarian in Book 0, Episode 26 and Book 1, Page 83. How many times do we need it to happen before it becomes safe to infer that it's a rule?

Whether we can infer a rule or not, it is at least certainly more probable that Banhammer was a barbarian than not, since it would be the first time we've ever seen a ruler lose his capital and not be a barbarian and nothing in the story indicates that he wasn't a barbarian.

Lipkin wrote:Marie flees to the Magic Kingdom and turns barbarian before the city falls.
Lipkin wrote:Not speculation.
But you don't actually know what Marie did, right? I know that units can turn barbarian without permission, but I don't know that Marie did it. I'd say that there's a fair chance that it could be true, but I'd like to confirm that you don't actually have any evidence that I'm missing. You're just guessing.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:29 pm

You guys are forgetting about Loyalty. Loyalty is a stat that can change. If a ruler were to treat any Unit, warlord or caster, terribly enough, they would likely have their Loyalty score drop lower and lower until they point where they could Turn or go Barbarian. For a caster they could possibly escape into the Magic Kingdom. A Warlord might go AWOL out on the field.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby balder » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:30 pm

Ditto wrote:The proper spelling of Banhammer's first line is HERALD, not harald.


Corrected, thanks. Reminds me of "his boops are in a vice" from long ago.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:34 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Marie flees to the Magic Kingdom and turns barbarian before the city falls.
Lipkin wrote:Not speculation.
But you don't actually know what Marie did, right? I know that units can turn barbarian without permission, but I don't know that Marie did it. I'd say that there's a fair chance that it could be true, but I'd like to confirm that you don't actually have any evidence that I'm missing. You're just guessing.
Correct. Not speculation that you can go barbarian without Ruler's permission, speculation that Marie turned Barbarian and fled to the magic kingdom before the fall of Faq.

But it seems the most plausible thing that could have happened. Of the numerous Faq casters, only Jack, Wanda, and Marie have been seen or mentioned since Faq's fall. Jack and Wanda both joined Gobwin Knob. If all the casters fled, we'd likely at least have heard mention of them at some point. So Marie was in the Magic Kingdom when the city fell. We have nothing to indicate that being in the Magic Kingdom automatically severs your loyalty to your side, and as pointed out, Jillian should have become Ruler when Banhammer croaked. Marie should be loyal to Jillian, but isn't. I'm not even sure it's confirmed that simply being in the Magic Kingdom protects you from disbanding when you side falls. You may have to get there and willfully turn barbarian to save yourself.

Anyway, when typing this all out, another scenario occurred to me. Marie sees the fall of Faq coming, and arranges to just happen to be in the Magic Kingdom when Stanley arrives. Banhammer falls, and Marie turns. Jillian can't afford to pay Marie's upkeep anyway, Marie's not capable of pooling her smuckers with Jillian because there's no treasury, and they have no way to reunite. Marie's best course of action for the side is to turn barbarian and fend for herself.

Seems like there are two types of Barbarians. Those without a capitol/side, and those without a side and ruler.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:41 pm

Lipkin wrote:I'm not even sure it's confirmed that simply being in the Magic Kingdom protects you from disbanding when you side falls. You may have to get there and willfully turn barbarian to save yourself.
Considering that many casters in the Magic Kingdom are from fallen sides, I'd think it would save you from disbanding. I'd give Unaroyal as an example, but I suppose you could say they went barbarian before Queen Bea committed suicide.

Lipkin wrote:Anyway, when typing this all out, another scenario occurred to me. Marie sees the fall of Faq coming, and arranges to just happen to be in the Magic Kingdom when Stanley arrives.
Marie has lots of reasons to be in the magic kingdom, she could have just been there.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:49 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:
Lipkin wrote:I'm not even sure it's confirmed that simply being in the Magic Kingdom protects you from disbanding when you side falls. You may have to get there and willfully turn barbarian to save yourself.
Considering that many casters in the Magic Kingdom are from fallen sides, I'd think it would save you from disbanding. I'd give Unaroyal as an example, but I suppose you could say they went barbarian before Queen Bea committed suicide.

Lipkin wrote:Anyway, when typing this all out, another scenario occurred to me. Marie sees the fall of Faq coming, and arranges to just happen to be in the Magic Kingdom when Stanley arrives.
Marie has lots of reasons to be in the magic kingdom, she could have just been there.

Yeah, but we're talking about someone who has predicted Faq's fall. Which is more likely in a a narrative like this? That the person who can see the future saw it coming, or that they just happened to get lucky and not be around on the day the rest of her side was taken out?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:53 pm

Lipkin wrote:I'm not even sure it's confirmed that simply being in the Magic Kingdom protects you from disbanding when you side falls. You may have to get there and willfully turn barbarian to save yourself.
Consider Labeler, Adderall, Betsy, and the rest who went into the Magic Kingdom for the first fall of Faq and came out still units of Faq. Some people even doubt that they became barbarians at all, but either way they certainly didn't willfully turn away from Faq to survive. I'd say that it is confirmed that the Magic Kingdom doesn't count as the field.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:02 pm

Lipkin wrote:
SirShadow wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Anyway, when typing this all out, another scenario occurred to me. Marie sees the fall of Faq coming, and arranges to just happen to be in the Magic Kingdom when Stanley arrives.
Marie has lots of reasons to be in the magic kingdom, she could have just been there.

Yeah, but we're talking about someone who has predicted Faq's fall. Which is more likely in a a narrative like this? That the person who can see the future saw it coming, or that they just happened to get lucky and not be around on the day the rest of her side was taken out?
But would she really not tell anybody? I guess you could say she forsaw someone betraying FAQ and wasn't sure who to trust entirely, but that'd be even more speculation and surely she'd have known there were some other casters she could have safely brought with her.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:19 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:But would she really not tell anybody? I guess you could say she forsaw someone betraying FAQ and wasn't sure who to trust entirely, but that'd be even more speculation and surely she'd have known there were some other casters she could have safely brought with her.

Consider last time she tried to warn of the destruction of Faq. Having seen how attempting a warning went the last time, and knowing Banhammer was doomed, she may have decided to simply get out of fate's way. Heck, she may have even arranged to have Jillian be on the far away mission at the time of the attack. She knew that Jillian was fated to be ruler of Faq, but not for how long. She could be responsible for the survival of Faq, or at least the rebirth.

Dunno. I just can't see a scenario where her survival was not something she planned.
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