Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:26 pm

Eeeh, you may be giving predictamancers too much credit. Just because Fate might have made her to go the magic kingdom doesn't mean she knows that. Marie doesn't seem the type to just give up and say 'screw them' either.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:34 pm

She does to me. If leaving Faq to it's fate would serve to bring Parson closer to being summoned and ending war.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:38 pm

Leaving FAQ to its Fate and leaving her contemporaries to their Fate is entirely different.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:48 pm

It's unlikely that Jack would have been unable to escape if he had wanted to, even in the midst of battle. And GK has no Turnamancers. He must have chosen to turn to GK, especially considering he repeatedly turns down chances to turn to Jillian.

I don't think Marie could warn the others with specific enough details to cause them to leave with her. They don't really trust her, especially given they thought they had successfully fought fate by beating Haffaton.

My theory is that Marie saw it coming, ensured her survival, and advised Jack to turn.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:53 pm

Jack likely turned because he didn't have a choice. It was Wanda who had made sure he wasn't in the capital. As it had been said before, casters are a hot commodity and Stanley likely didn't have to think twice about taking in a caster that surrendered which Jack was surely smart enough to do when facing down a flight of dragons.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:56 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:Jack likely turned because he didn't have a choice. It was Wanda who had made sure he wasn't in the capital. As it had been said before, casters are a hot commodity and Stanley likely didn't have to think twice about taking in a caster that surrendered which Jack was surely smart enough to do when facing down a flight of dragons.

What would stop him from casting a veil and bugging out?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:59 pm

It wasn't his Turn. He couldn't leave the hex.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:08 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:It wasn't his Turn. He couldn't leave the hex.

Fair enough. I still like my theory though, because it explains why Jack wouldn't turn back to Jillian the first chance he got.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby MonteCristo » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:11 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Clementx wrote:She was far off on a mercenary contract when FAQ fell. She couldn't even pay for the upkeep of her current units out of her purse. To survive, she had to immediately start earning shmuckers for herself, without the safety net of a treasury. Rushing to FAQ would just end with her disbanding first her entire, "army", then herself as she sat in the ruins.
Having cities could only have helped her shmucker situation because it would give her a treasury and income. Faq never prevented her from doing mercenary work before, so there's no reason she should stop just because she rebuilds the cities.

Clementx wrote:Ruins she could not protect with Predictamancy/Foolamancy, or even rely on anonymity to protect.
Marie escaped into the Magic Kingdom. Surely she would have come back to help protect Faq, and there would always be a chance that when Jillian rebuilt Faq's crew of warlords some new casters would pop. There's no reason to expect that anyone would attack Faq again immediately so she would have had time to prepare.


The point You are missing is that Jillian likely did not have the shmuckers to rebuild her cities and thus the city and capital sites were useless to her. However i feel it is a somewhat moot point, if the whole point was to discuess who Jillian was not living up to her purpose and not respecting her father's last wishes; While it may be true Jillian could not rebuild her side on her own, she also did not have much interest in it. We saw how she reacted to Don King telling her she needed to take up her role as ruler of her own side; she came to like the freedom of being a barbarian... And it seems that now that she was on her own, she lost all sense of her duty and was allowed to be a bit more indulgent

Not to mention, when talking about her not "respecting her father's wishes and continuing the side"; remember, Banhammer's wish was not for Faq to survive, but for Faq to continue its peaceful endeavors. He wanted Jillian to rule the way he ruled, but Jillian would much prefer to rule by the way of the sword... So ya, either way she was not respecting her father's wishes and doing what she was popped to do (atleast from her father's perspective; fate has other plans... Fate demands a warrior queen).


WarFAN wrote:I never get tired to repeat this:

King Banhammer is a galactic-level idiot. I will be very pleased when (if) Rob shows his croaking/uncroaking.


Based on how he dealt with Haffaton... definitely. But the deal he made with Charlie? Not so much. I mean on the surface it seems like a good deal. Faq is rebuilt, charlie promises never to attack it, and all Faq needs to do in exchange is keep some information that it has no real use for a secret. Sounds like a solid deal in Faq's favor. I mean Charlie's loop hole, the supposed act of manipulating spawn rates to aid Stanely in destroying Faq was a compeltely unpredictable outcome for anyone but Marie(and that's something she might have kept silent about). Jillian was right to be suspicious of the carnymancer, but she didn't really have much of an argument since it was more like a feeling "he's could screw us over someone how; i don't know how he could do it, i just know he can". Really, i think most any rational person would have taken the deal

However i do think a stupid thing he did was not putting in more consideration of the options he had been presented with given the huge landscape of empty cities. He didn't need to go back the old system, and might have been able to use all of those cities to find a better system. Frankly I really liked Jillian's buffer idea... Instead of Faq having to hide behind illusions they could hide behind a wall of iron; the former of which is easily conquerable if discovered.


How he dealt with Haffaton however; Now that rather shows how deep his naivety goes... He failed spectacularly there and fell for Olive's charm's hook line a sinker; he didn't listen to the only two people in the room that knew anything about her, and it could have gotten him and all his casters croaked
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lilwik » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:07 pm

MonteCristo wrote:The point You are missing is that Jillian likely did not have the shmuckers to rebuild her cities and thus the city and capital sites were useless to her.
Any city would have been a start, even just a tiny outpost. Once she has a treasury I'm sure she could find a way to save up enough to upgrade the city later.

MonteCristo wrote:I mean Charlie's loop hole, the supposed act of manipulating spawn rates to aid Stanely in destroying Faq was a compeltely unpredictable outcome for anyone but Marie(and that's something she might have kept silent about).
I find it hard to believe that loophole exists. That would be aiding a side in attacking Faq, and from the way they talk about Labeler it doesn't seem like he would have allowed a thing like that to be overlooked in the contract. I don't know for certain, but now more than ever I doubt Charlie was involved in Stanley finding those dwagons.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:10 pm

Lilwik wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:I mean Charlie's loop hole, the supposed act of manipulating spawn rates to aid Stanely in destroying Faq was a compeltely unpredictable outcome for anyone but Marie(and that's something she might have kept silent about).
I find it hard to believe that loophole exists. That would be aiding a side in attacking Faq, and from the way they talk about Labeler it doesn't seem like he would have allowed a thing like that to be overlooked in the contract. I don't know for certain, but now more than ever I doubt Charlie was involved in Stanley finding those dwagons.
If he can actually do that, affecting pop rates of Dwagons would be an actual loophole. Why would Labeler think of anything like that if he didn't know (just like we don't really) if the Arkendish can do that? Popping Dwagons in the mountains is very different from handing a side funds or Units.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby motorfirebox » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:56 pm

...And that's when it all went pear-shaped.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby drachefly » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:30 pm

Lilwik wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:The point You are missing is that Jillian likely did not have the shmuckers to rebuild her cities and thus the city and capital sites were useless to her.
Any city would have been a start, even just a tiny outpost. Once she has a treasury I'm sure she could find a way to save up enough to upgrade the city later.


A tiny outpost that, as far as she knows, is now an occupied city. She had every reason to suspect that it was defended. And even when she learned it wasn't, she knew it wasn't a perfect secret, and didn't know how long she could go undetected. There is a time-to-payoff for cities, and she couldn't count on reaching that.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Sir Shadow » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:32 pm

That's a good point. She didn't know that the cities had been raised since the capital fell first and the other cities went barbarian like she did. She only had the units in her stack to try and fight with, so she might not think that it would be possible.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby MonteCristo » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:48 am

Y'know Epilouge 8 still kind of bugs me...
Really its just that Wanda seems to have no Qualms at all about fighting Charlie. Considering what she thought about reuniting the tools and how she thought that Charlescomm would be the last side they would fight with, i would think she'd question the action more. Like she would feel crossed at the idea, worried that a war with Charlie might be taking the "hard way"... I mean, Stanley got on board pretty quick, but he atleast took a moment to question if it was something the titans wanted. Even she ultimately did get on board with the idea, I would atleast like to see her get distressed over the idea. When it comes down to it, Wanda sees herself as tool of fate, and does not try to fight it, but she is always stressed about not knowing which way to go; something like war with Charlie is one of those things that should be setting off some red flags in her head.

Lilwik wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:The point You are missing is that Jillian likely did not have the shmuckers to rebuild her cities and thus the city and capital sites were useless to her.
Any city would have been a start, even just a tiny outpost. Once she has a treasury I'm sure she could find a way to save up enough to upgrade the city later.

MonteCristo wrote:I mean Charlie's loop hole, the supposed act of manipulating spawn rates to aid Stanely in destroying Faq was a compeltely unpredictable outcome for anyone but Marie(and that's something she might have kept silent about).
I find it hard to believe that loophole exists. That would be aiding a side in attacking Faq, and from the way they talk about Labeler it doesn't seem like he would have allowed a thing like that to be overlooked in the contract. I don't know for certain, but now more than ever I doubt Charlie was involved in Stanley finding those dwagons.


You again, Assume her purse could AFFORD to tunr a raze city into an outpost; heck considering who we are talking about a capitol site, we would likely be talking about building a lv 1 city

As for the loophole; that's why its a loop hole. Its an unforeseen hole in the deal that is ripe for exploitation. It allows one to violate the spirit of the contract while not actually violating the contract itself. YOU may call spawning dwagons near Faq a form of "aid", but as far as the titans and the contract are concerned, its not the kind of aid the contract was talking about; its just spawning dwagons, Charlies reasons for doing so are irrelevant. That's why it would be a loophole

Granted, i'm not really sure why Charlie would bother destroying Faq. I mean, he already had an iron clad deal that would keep them silent, and if he was willing to just croak them all, he could have do it hear and now, instead of striking a deal... really all he had to do was position some archons to make sure none of them escaped into the magic kingdom. Not to mention, as we saw with the fall of faq, some of the casters DID make it out alive by either joining gobwinknob or by escaping into the magic kingdom, making the attack rather pointless. Not to mention that Charlie came up with this contract LONG before the arken hammer was picked up by Stanley... no way he could have known here and now, that Faq would one day have a hostile neighbor capable of taming wild units that would be used for Faq's downfall... he would have come up with the idea of ending Faq AFTER he made the contract.

Eh, i don't know, i guess i just not a big fan of the idea of Charlie being involved in Faq's fall... guy's got enough villian points as it is and doesn't need to be part of EVERYTHING; really erfworld had never ending war, long before he showed up.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Sir Shadow » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:21 am

/shrug it could have just been Fate popping those Dwagons. You're also assuming that Charlie COULD muster the Archons to surround the capital right then and there. These events were many many Turns ago and Charlie likely did not have the forces on hand that he does in the 'present'.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Fcannon » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:02 pm

"Will not give aid to an enemy side" doesn't mean "will never take any action which could potentially make it easier for them to attack Faq". Charlie is bound not to give or sell any information regarding FAQ, and not to sell the services of any forces he controls to a side in open conflict with Faq. Thinkamancy-ing a bunch of dwagons to cluster in a certain area would absolutely be a viable loophole
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby bladestorm » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:18 pm

Fcannon wrote:"Will not give aid to an enemy side" doesn't mean "will never take any action which could potentially make it easier for them to attack Faq". Charlie is bound not to give or sell any information regarding FAQ, and not to sell the services of any forces he controls to a side in open conflict with Faq. Thinkamancy-ing a bunch of dwagons to cluster in a certain area would absolutely be a viable loophole
Wanda set the fall of Faq into motion long before Charlie would have needed to alter the pop rate for dwagons. It would not be a violation of contract to assist a member of Faq in reaching out to a nearby ally, especially if it was a Faq unit that gave said ally the location of Faq. Wanda could have even asked to have Charlescomm alter the pop rate of dwagons between GK and Faq, so that her newfound ally would have more units at his disposal. Clearly not a violation of contract on Charlescomm's behalf.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby drachefly » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:32 pm

Wanda said she wanted Stanley to lose, and if so, she wouldn't have done that. She had a reason to lie, but it was not very strong.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby WarFAN » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:42 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:/shrug it could have just been Fate popping those Dwagons. You're also assuming that Charlie COULD muster the Archons to surround the capital right then and there. These events were many many Turns ago and Charlie likely did not have the forces on hand that he does in the 'present'.


I really think you have a very good point here: Fate messing with Wanda's, Jillian's, Jack's and FAQ's destinies...
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