Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

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Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Balerion » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:51 pm

This is mostly a musing about charlie's inclination towards linking with people through the archon dish. Rather than needing 4 minds, you are really just after 4 disciplines. Charlie adds two on his own (think and carny), so if he links with casters from other disciplines the link up has access to knowledge from four schools. The way the link is described, it is the melding of cross school knowledge that makes it potent, not necessarily the additional juice/brains involved. Would also imply any thinkamancer with two masters would be capable. Just some thoughts.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:02 pm

We've discussed this a bit in the process of working on Erfgame. Based on the fact that casters are referred to by discipline when in a link, and the process of forming one involves connecting deeply to their primary discipline, I think it's logical to expect they can only access that primary discipline when they link. At best, they miiiiight be able to chose one known discipline rather than just defaulting to their primary. So normal tri-links are still probably limited to Think + 2 Disciplines

In Charlie's case however....there may be an exception. His primary is Carnymancy, and this is a 'Tool we're talking about, so the 'Dish itself might carry the load of the link as a Thinkamancer, rather than Charlie being the linker. (My belief is that Kingworld needed Carny & Turn, so that would support this idea). Now, it's just a question of whether the load-bearing of the 'Dish counts as a 3rd caster or not. If a link is only counting the real bodies/minds involved, then yeah you could get a link with Charlie that is Think + Carny + 2, while still only having 3 physical casters.

Just my musing on the subject after already thinking about it a while.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby GWvsJohn » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:26 pm

0beron wrote:We've discussed this a bit in the process of working on Erfgame. Based on the fact that casters are referred to by discipline when in a link, and the process of forming one involves connecting deeply to their primary discipline, I think it's logical to expect they can only access that primary discipline when they link. At best, they miiiiight be able to chose one known discipline rather than just defaulting to their primary. So normal tri-links are still probably limited to Think + 2 Disciplines

In Charlie's case however....there may be an exception. His primary is Carnymancy, and this is a 'Tool we're talking about, so the 'Dish itself might carry the load of the link as a Thinkamancer, rather than Charlie being the linker. (My belief is that Kingworld needed Carny & Turn, so that would support this idea). Now, it's just a question of whether the load-bearing of the 'Dish counts as a 3rd caster or not. If a link is only counting the real bodies/minds involved, then yeah you could get a link with Charlie that is Think + Carny + 2, while still only having 3 physical casters.

Just my musing on the subject after already thinking about it a while.


I agree with everything 0beron said.

I think Charlie "can" do it, but never has. I have this feeling he's going to try to do it to stop Parson. Then Parson will break the link unexpectedly and the 'Dish will backlash onto Charlie, croaking him. Just a crazy hunch bbothing I'd bet quatloo on.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:34 pm

0beron wrote:I think it's logical to expect they can only access that primary discipline when they link.
Given how subtle and complex Thinkamancy is, I'm strongly suspect that there is more than one way to link people up. Thinkamancers can probably even link with warlords. That's just speculation, of course, but I'm sure we shouldn't think that we fully understand Thinkamancy just from seeing it used a few times.

0beron wrote:His primary is Carnymancy, and this is a 'Tool we're talking about, so the 'Dish itself might carry the load of the link as a Thinkamancer, rather than Charlie being the linker.
I doubt this. Of course the Arkentools are very powerful, but they are still only tools; we've never seen any sign that they are conscious or aware of their surroundings. I suspect that the dish can't think, so it can't truly be a Thinkamancer. I expect that the dish gives Charlie enormous sensitivity and broadcast power for Thinkamancy, making Thinkamancy so easy that even a Carnymancer can do it, but broadcast power and sensitivity wouldn't give Charlie assistance in organizing thoughts the way a real Thinkamancer does. I'd guess that the power of the dish is in allowing him to form a link from across Erfworld, but he might not have the mental capacity to manage even a 3-way link.

0beron wrote:My belief is that Kingworld needed Carny & Turn, so that would support this idea.
If it were just a 2-way link between Charlie and Vanna then Charlie could probably provide the Carnymancy as well as the Thinkamancy. We know from Summer Update 26 that in a 2-way link the burden on the Thinkamancer is sometimes light enough that the Thinkamancer can contribute thoughts of his own to the job.

0beron wrote:Now, it's just a question of whether the load-bearing of the 'Dish counts as a 3rd caster or not. If a link is only counting the real bodies/minds involved, then yeah you could get a link with Charlie that is Think + Carny + 2, while still only having 3 physical casters.
That would mean that the dish is so powerful that is can not only fully act in place of a Thinkamancer, but is even superior to any Thinkamancer in both range and mental capacity because it can link more casters together than any Thinkamancer could. Intuitively I expect that a tool shouldn't be able to fully take the place of a person, but I could be very wrong about that. We really have no evidence to tell us about the limits of the dish.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby mortissimus » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:47 pm

Lilwik wrote:
0beron wrote:His primary is Carnymancy, and this is a 'Tool we're talking about, so the 'Dish itself might carry the load of the link as a Thinkamancer, rather than Charlie being the linker.
I doubt this. Of course the Arkentools are very powerful, but they are still only tools; we've never seen any sign that they are conscious or aware of their surroundings.


Hasn't it been stated that the Arkenhammer has poor choice of friends as a weakness? Don't remember where.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:51 pm

Yeah, I actually agree Mort, I just worded it poorly. I definitely don't feel the 'Dish could count as a full Thinkamancer, I'm simply suggesting it could carry the mental load of the link. So any spells this group casts would be Carny+2, the Thinkamancy couldn't actually be part of the spell's effect. That kind of power wouldn't require it to be sentient, and seems in line especially with what the 'Pliers do. (Adding Life to Croakamancy seems similarly game-breaking as acting as a mindless caster)
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:32 pm

0beron wrote:That kind of power wouldn't require it to be sentient, and seems in line especially with what the 'Pliers do.
The pliers radically expand the power of Croakamancy, but we've seen nothing to suggest that the pliers can think. On the other hand, I find it hard to imagine the dish relieving a mental burden without doing some of the thinking for Charlie, and being able to think strongly suggests sentience. I acknowledge that maybe the dish can only think in something similar to how a computer thinks, running programs for a certain limited set of applications, but that would mean that linking with the dish is something quite different from linking with a Thinkamancer; the dish would have less flexibility and creativity, but in exchange would have more speed and precision in the limited areas that it can handle.

Still, the dish is a dish, not a Arkencomputer. That strongly suggests that what it does is increase Thinkamancy range. We know it at least expanded Charlie's Thinkamancy range from zero to seemingly limitless, effectively monitoring all of Erfworld for anyone who wants to contact him and maybe not even requiring any juice to do it. To me that alone seems like power fit for an Arkentool.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby GWvsJohn » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:54 pm

Lilwik wrote:
0beron wrote:That kind of power wouldn't require it to be sentient, and seems in line especially with what the 'Pliers do.
The pliers radically expand the power of Croakamancy, but we've seen nothing to suggest that the pliers can think. On the other hand, I find it hard to imagine the dish relieving a mental burden without doing some of the thinking for Charlie, and being able to think strongly suggests sentience. I acknowledge that maybe the dish can only think in something similar to how a computer thinks, running programs for a certain limited set of applications, but that would mean that linking with the dish is something quite different from linking with a Thinkamancer; the dish would have less flexibility and creativity, but in exchange would have more speed and precision in the limited areas that it can handle.

Still, the dish is a dish, not a Arkencomputer. That strongly suggests that what it does is increase Thinkamancy range. We know it at least expanded Charlie's Thinkamancy range from zero to seemingly limitless, effectively monitoring all of Erfworld for anyone who wants to contact him and maybe not even requiring any juice to do it. To me that alone seems like power fit for an Arkentool.


The dish doesnt expand the range of thinkamancy. It gives Charlie a command of Thinkancy. Charlie can clearly act as a Thinkamancer for links. The question is can he act as a Thinkamancer and a Carnymancer simultaneously. Based on the nature of the Kingworld spell, I think yes. That bed the question if he can do a 3-way link bit still act as Think- and Carnymancer, effectively a 4 way link. I say yes. In no way does this imply or require sentience of any sort.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:24 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:The dish doesnt expand the range of thinkamancy.
Where do we know that from? I thought it might be Isaac's little story in Book 2, Text 40, but instead all I found was a deep sense of how little we know about Thinkamancy and how complicated it all is. I think trying to make guesses about how it works is an almost hopeless task.

GWvsJohn wrote:Charlie can clearly act as a Thinkamancer for links. The question is can he act as a Thinkamancer and a Carnymancer simultaneously.
There's no doubt he can make links, I agree, and surely he's a Carnymancer. Given the complexity of Thinkamancy and how little we know of it, we would be wildly reaching to suppose that Charlie loses all access to Carnymancy while linked.

GWvsJohn wrote:That bed the question if he can do a 3-way link bit still act as Think- and Carnymancer, effectively a 4 way link.
Surely a link isn't 4-way just because there happen to be 4 disciplines of magic involved. Isaac alone knows 3 disciplines of magic, but that doesn't make him a human 3-way link. The point of a link is to connect minds together so they can work as one, so when we're counting the number of ways in a link we should be counting the number of minds involved.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby GWvsJohn » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:35 pm

You were implying that it merely expanded the range, when clearly it does much, much more than that. Extending range is surely a small part of that.

As was said in the comic, and agreed upon by every other posted on these boards, when in a link, a caster is reduced to their primary discipline. Thus, having acces to Thinkamancy plus three other disciplines is a four way link.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:21 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:As was said in the comic, and agreed upon by every other posted on these boards, when in a link, a caster is reduced to their primary discipline.
Where did the comic say that? Is it just Book 1, Page 135 where Maggie gives instructions to Sizemore and Wanda before the link that uncroaks the volcano? If so, we should probably notice that Wanda's Croakamancy and Sizemore's Dirtamancy were the perfect two disciplines to accomplish that task. Maggie had no reason to want anything else from Wanda or Sizemore, and as we see Maggie asked them to focus on only what she wanted. This is not proof that Maggie couldn't have asked for other things from Sizemore and Wanda if Maggie had wanted something else.

I'm not saying that links can use disciplines other than primary disciplines. I'm saying that we don't know. Most of what we know is that Thinkamancy is a deep and complicated magic and it has many mysteries that we've seen only hints of.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby GWvsJohn » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:02 pm

We have two things (Maggie's instructions plus the fact that the eyemancers were called by their disciplines) that strongly imply casters in a link are reduced to their disciplines.

You are the only person to think otherwise.

I think we can safely assume linked casters can only use their primary discipline.

You can continue to argue in vain, but you are just wasting time.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:27 am

Agree with GW. Casters in links are always referred to by their discipline, and it is stated that they lose all individuality, becoming an "avatar" their discipline. You miiiiight argue the case that they might choose a discipline besides their primary if they know others...but it's pretty clear that they are limited to just 1 discipline.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:49 am

0beron wrote:Casters in links are always referred to by their discipline, and it is stated that they lose all individuality, becoming an "avatar" their discipline.
If it's stated that they become an avatar of their discipline then that's really well spotted. As long as they were talking about links in general and not some specific link, then I have to agree that it is solid evidence for the one-discipline-per-caster rule about links. Where is that stated?
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:56 am

I'm not gonna go do your research for you just because you have a bad memory. Multiple casters have discussed the loss of self/individuality involved with linking, especially in Book 1. Jack and Maggie both talk about their experience with the Eyemancer link, Wanda touches on it when explaining why Parson shouldn't have talked to Misty, and Charlie gets pissed at Slately for talking to Vanna. If you wanna look them up to find the exact wording be my guest, but they're collectively pretty conclusive proof.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:42 am

0beron wrote:I'm not gonna go do your research for you just because you have a bad memory.
So you were just relying on memory and didn't look it up to verify it.

0beron wrote:Jack and Maggie both talk about their experience with the Eyemancer link,
Maggie says a little about it in Book 1, Page 84. Maggie talked about a different link in Summer Update 26, revealing more interesting details for the first time, but nothing about this issue. Jack talks about the link in Summer Update 38, about how his abilities were so much greater when he was linked, but nothing about losing his knowledge of other disciplines while in the link. I think that's everything.

0beron wrote:Wanda touches on it when explaining why Parson shouldn't have talked to Misty,
That seems to be Book 1, Page 47, except that Wanda doesn't actually explain why Parson talking to Misty was a problem. Sizemore does a far better job of explaining it on Page 54, but Sizemore only talks about the casters lack of individuality. He never touches on the casters losing access to their full abilities, and certainly never says anything about anyone being avatars.

0beron wrote:Charlie gets pissed at Slately for talking to Vanna.
Yes, it is well established that talking to linked casters as individuals is bad. It seems they need to lose their sense of individuality for the link to work correctly, which explains why they are referred to by titles instead of names.

0beron wrote:If you wanna look them up to find the exact wording be my guest, but they're collectively pretty conclusive proof.
Actually, when I look them up I find that they say nothing at all about this issue, unless I've missed one.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby bpzinn » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:33 am

0beron wrote:Agree with GW. Casters in links are always referred to by their discipline, and it is stated that they lose all individuality, becoming an "avatar" their discipline. You miiiiight argue the case that they might choose a discipline besides their primary if they know others...but it's pretty clear that they are limited to just 1 discipline.


Assumes facts not in evidence. As others have asked, if you want to call others wrong, do it with a page reference. Don't be lazy and rude at the same time, please. All 3 way linkups thus far were from people whose class WAS their primary discipline. people like Issac, (who is a Master Class Lookamancer and Thinkamancer, and adept Foolamancer) has none of those as his class. His class is Headmaster. I assume if he were to be in a trimancer link, he could achieve the necessary depersonalization by referring to him as "Headmaster" and he would have access to all eyemancer disciplines.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby wih » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:10 am

bpzinn wrote:
0beron wrote:Agree with GW. Casters in links are always referred to by their discipline, and it is stated that they lose all individuality, becoming an "avatar" their discipline. You miiiiight argue the case that they might choose a discipline besides their primary if they know others...but it's pretty clear that they are limited to just 1 discipline.


Assumes facts not in evidence. As others have asked, if you want to call others wrong, do it with a page reference. Don't be lazy and rude at the same time, please. All 3 way linkups thus far were from people whose class WAS their primary discipline. people like Issac, (who is a Master Class Lookamancer and Thinkamancer, and adept Foolamancer) has none of those as his class. His class is Headmaster. I assume if he were to be in a trimancer link, he could achieve the necessary depersonalization by referring to him as "Headmaster" and he would have access to all eyemancer disciplines.


This has always been my take on it. The complicating factor is that we don't know how Wanda works; she must have some level of competency outside of Croakamancy, possibly a novice Thinkamancer at least, but seemingly has no change in title. I've assumed the Headmaster title has to do with having more than one discipline, but nothing solid has come out yet.
In the original version of the story, it was stated that four disciplines were involved in the Summon Perfect Warlord spell via a linkup, which would only be possible if casters could use more than one discipline in a link-up. However, this may have been retconned in the print versions, if not updated to the webcomic.
I'm not sure we have enough information to conclusively understand this.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby drachefly » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:47 am

If for some reason they had needed to branch out, might Wanda not have been addressed as naughtymancer? I don't see the evidence as very strong.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:09 am

Congrats, you found exactly the evidence I'm talking about. They lose their individuality exactly like I told you, and instead are referred to as....oh what's that? THE NAME OF THEIR DISCIPLINE. Not "caster", not "hey you", but a very specific label that expresses their capabilities. Now stop being a contrarian dick just because I didn't feel like holding your hand through the process of proving I was right.
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