Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:33 pm

I'm from the USA too. By "you" I meant you guys on this forum. I mean, did you even read the wiki article? They gave the spy device right to the guys, and they carried it into their office themselves. If the GMTTA are even half as self assured as you guys, spying on them would be rather easy.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby MonteCristo » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:47 pm

atalex wrote:
0beron wrote:I'm not sure if I'm understanding your wording correctly, but if I am, I think you interpreting the Stanley thing totally wrong. Maggie needs to give him "activities" so that he doesn't have time to think and make his own decisions without advice. It's not that she needs him to continue behaving as he has, it's that she needs to prevent him from being reckless.


Personally, I have always suspected that Maggie or perhaps someone else has actively done something to Stanley to make him stupid and capricious. His earlier exploits -- a lowly piker rising to the level of Chief Warlord and Heir -- are inconsistent with the moron he has been portrayed as since Book 1, and several of his internal monologues have described his thinking processes in a manner that suggests a fog-like befuddlement rather than simply not being very smart. Given Maggie's known willingness to use suggestions on him, it's certainly possible that she or someone else did something more long term in the interests of making him pliable.


I find that it is all explainable enough... When it comes to being promoted from piker; that could have been a simple case of Stanely just plain surviving long enough to be a high level piker. Saline wanted another warlord, but instead of popping one, he thought he'd just promote one of his higher level infantry. Heck, take fate into account and Stanley would have found a way to survive the worst battles despite his incompetence to gain the levels that would make him a more favorable pick

As for the rest; that could all be thanked to the hammer. He found the hammer when he was a warlord, and that allowed him to tamed Dwagons and lead them into battle. Having an army of dwagons by his side, he may not have needed much brain power to be a good warlord; the dwagons allowed him to just have all the brute force he would ever need to fight most any battle he was sent on. If saline wasn't very smart about picking warlords, this could easily lead to him just picking Stanley as his chief warlord by virtue of his power alone. Really one thing we can always question is whether or not Saline was a good leader himself...

Shai_hulud wrote:Is anyone else concerned about how super insecure that temple actually looks? Couldn't they just put a veiled eyebook-like item up on the ceiling and then signal with flashing lights to a veiled transmitter outside the pillars? I mean holy shit that place looks like it would be super easy to spy on.


Not really. Thinkamancers do most of their conversations via thinkamancy; their wouldn't be anything to see or hear even if you were trying to spy on them. They only method one could use to spy on them is through thinkamancy and i recall it was mentioned that the temple was built to a fortress against outside thinkamancy.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby arkerpay » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:02 pm

The Great Minds That Think Alike are neither "Great", nor do they "Think Alike". Discuss.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby No one in particular » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:42 pm

arkerpay wrote:The Great Minds That Think Alike are neither "Great", nor do they "Think Alike". Discuss.

The name of the group is a goal they strive for, rather than a statement of their condition. *looks around to see if anyone holds up their finger or starts yelling*
"Are you always so pessimistic?"
"Not at all. I saved it for my last battle."
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby ManaCaster » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:39 pm

0beron wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:Recent events quite clearly point to [Parson] being [a caster].
Recent events from OUR perspective, remember the Great Minds aren't privy to everything we see. Nobody besides Parson knows he was about to succeed at casting that spell, so all the Great Minds have for evidence of his caster-ness is his ability to enter the MK, which can be chalked up to him being "special".

I am aware of that, I was just pointing out the fact that we know for sure.

What I mean is, the Great Minds participated in the spell that brought him here, so they should have at least some idea of what exactly he is.

badninja wrote:The carnarymancers are fully for Charlie I am willing to bet, being one of their own, how will the rest of the sides divided either for or against the thinkamancers or each individual unit making the choice.

Well, all the known Carnymancers are for him. But I doubt the Carnymancers are quite as unified as the Thinkamancers, though.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Lipkin » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:45 pm

You know what? Maggie and Parson may not bone, but I suspect that they will link after he tells her that he could cast a scroll. Since linking gives a deeper understanding of your discipline, that would be a good way to discover what his actually is.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Lor » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:15 pm

It really is too bad Maggie's card catalog is in such shambles. It is wasn't, she could just play back a certain memory:

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_124

Parson Gotti: But, y'know... he's doing the same to you. And you can't be strong everywhere. So you fall back where he's stronger, and sometimes you do lose. But you roll with it.
Yes, you plan. Okay? But the enemy won't follow your plan.
So the trick is to be fluid, hit him on the fly, define his choices... watch for opportunity, like when he boops up. You have to know more than he does about what's going on.
Which is why you don't withhold information from the guy who plans your battles! You see?


Emphasis Mine.
Cheers for the dramatic irony, Rob. We know Parson has to know this stuff, and we know he has caster-like powers at least. But as someone else said (forgive me for not looking up your name) the GMtTA don't know it.
Sir Cedric: Delayed? How so?
Wamba: Well, when I heard Normans were approaching I ran to lock up my wife. But, she'd also heard they were approaching, and locked me up instead.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Jabberwocky » Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:24 am

Determining how to spy on the Toolettes depends a lot on their security protocols. If they're lax and just rely on the temple and MK neutrality, one might be able to. Of course, signs indicate that they do actively take precautions.

Just to work on the problem.. I suppose you could argue that a Charlie/Arkendish/Dollamancer combo could build a golem that could replicate one of the dish's own applications and then report back in some manner. But people might notice if the tea pot had unit stats and would start doing interpretive dance routines in the middle of meetings. And planted objects are practically as obvious, as units get passive checks against veils(and these are high level casters) and seem to be able to tell a magic item from a normal item just by seeing it. Physically hiding the object has its own host of problems.

The nature of Erworld rules just makes using a bug very difficult against the Toolettes in their temple.

A spy is more feasible, as a juiced up Turnamancer probably could forcibly turn a member. But then theres the problem of hiding allegiance and we get back into the problem of passive spot checks.

So, the answer is obvious. A weirdomancer/Turnamancer/Charliemancer link to create Brain Slugs in the MK. All the Great Minds have Brain Slugs in their heads, listening to their thoughts.

Just you watch. As soon as Parson comes in, their eyes are gonna roll back into their heads, their mouths are gonna open and bam. Brain Slugs will start jumping out and trying to crawl into Parson's orifices.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Sir Shadow » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:51 am

ManaCaster wrote:
badninja wrote:The carnarymancers are fully for Charlie I am willing to bet, being one of their own, how will the rest of the sides divided either for or against the thinkamancers or each individual unit making the choice.

Well, all the known Carnymancers are for him. But I doubt the Carnymancers are quite as unified as the Thinkamancers, though.
I'm willing to bet the Carnymancers are even more
unified than the Thinkamancers. Carnies stick together and look out for their own.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby LordAcme » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:05 am

Shai_hulud wrote:I'm from the USA too. By "you" I meant you guys on this forum. I mean, did you even read the wiki article? They gave the spy device right to the guys, and they carried it into their office themselves. If the GMTTA are even half as self assured as you guys, spying on them would be rather easy.


Except that unlike us Stupidworlders, Erfworld casters can actually sense the magical properties of things they are holding. I would posit that ability increases with the overall ability of the caster, and hypothesize that at some point, the increase in ability may allow that sense to extend to things that are in their presence.

And let's not forget, these aren't just casters. They are some of the most powerful members of their disciplines. More than one of them even has multiple Master / Adept levels. That's not the equivalent of getting second and third degrees. That's the equivalent of having successfully risen to the high ranks of two or three professions.

Stack on the fact that they spend their lives in a place devoted to researching new advances in those professions, and I would say concealing any device with any connection to any of their disciplines from detection is going to be difficult at best.

Edit: oops didn't see Jabber mentioning the same thing.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Lamech » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:13 pm

0beron wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:Is anyone else concerned about how super insecure that temple actually looks?
Depends on what you mean by insecure. I think the spy technique you're envisioning would be harder than you make it sound, but I suppose it could be possible.
If you mean physical security though, then yeah it's a popsicle stand! Remember, combat doesn't happen in the MK, so they don't build defensible structures in that regard, they're even forbidden. If Charlie somehow musters a combat force in the MK too, the Temple will not be a strong position (though Sizemore could rapidly make it one)

Attacking a bunch of wizards in a temple composed of pure magic? I can think of worse plans that Charlie could enact. For example he could order all his archons to go commit suicide over GK's capital.

In a serious tone, I think that the Temple while appearing weak from a conventional standpoint, probably enhances their magic to a large degree, and has magical defenses.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:20 pm

Lamech wrote:I think that the Temple while appearing weak from a conventional standpoint, probably enhances their magic to a large degree, and has magical defenses.
I would certainly expect a wizard temple to have tons of magical defenses, but this isn't just some wizard temple. What we have here is a wizard temple in Erfworld's Magic Kingdom, a place full of casters who are very weak at combat. Just remember Book 2, Page 110 and think about if you would want those people designing the defenses of your fortress. Even freshly popped casters know Hoboken!
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Oberon » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:07 pm

mortissimus wrote:Interesting to get a look into the Thinkomancer's power structure. Think alike or forget about a longterm academic career. No wonder they use Headmaster for title.
But what do they really have to offer her? It's not like Maggie is a tenure track professor who needs to keep the board happy with her performance so that she can achieve tenure. They might be able to pay her some rands, but as a GK unit she really doesn't need that. All I can see that they have to offer is membership in their little club. Which might be something most thinkamancers aspire to simply out of ego, but it's really not much of an incentive.


I find it interesting that all the thinkamancers are referring to Parson as a non-caster. That may end up being a colossal error on their part. Don't they have any curiosity as to how he is able to freely enter the MK? Don't they have any curiosity about why Jeftichew gave Parson a scroll, which would be worthless to a non-caster? For supposed intellectuals they appear to have huge, gaping blind spots in their critical thinking capabilities.

BakaGrappler wrote:I'm more a fan of Parson and Artemis hooking up. That would be optimal in my mind.
She is decrypted, and he already explained why he wouldn't want to bang a decrypted archon. The possibility of Wanda peeping through its eyes skeeves him out.

Mikalyaran wrote:Does anyone feel like they are clear on what kind of a threat Charlie really poses to the Great Minds? [...] What the hell is worth all this effort to them? Am I missing something?
They fear him because he bests them at their own discipline. We haven't heard much if any specifics of how that has effected them, but knowing that someone is able to look over your shoulder and observe your business at any time is probably frightening enough without any real specifics needed.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby BakaGrappler » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:07 pm

MonteCristo wrote:I find that it is all explainable enough... When it comes to being promoted from piker; that could have been a simple case of Stanely just plain surviving long enough to be a high level piker. Saline wanted another warlord, but instead of popping one, he thought he'd just promote one of his higher level infantry. Heck, take fate into account and Stanley would have found a way to survive the worst battles despite his incompetence to gain the levels that would make him a more favorable pick

As for the rest; that could all be thanked to the hammer. He found the hammer when he was a warlord, and that allowed him to tamed Dwagons and lead them into battle. Having an army of dwagons by his side, he may not have needed much brain power to be a good warlord; the dwagons allowed him to just have all the brute force he would ever need to fight most any battle he was sent on. If saline wasn't very smart about picking warlords, this could easily lead to him just picking Stanley as his chief warlord by virtue of his power alone. Really one thing we can always question is whether or not Saline was a good leader himself...


I think you are underselling Stanley's abilities just a little. Yeah, he's not much for overall kingdom management, or ahead of battle thinking, but he's proven his chops to us in the fight against Transylvito's ambush. He was outnumbered by ten warlords, their chief warlord, and about a thousand Bats, which were as strong as Infantry and Heavy Infantry units, and he blasted Caesar's stack away with one swing of the hammer which shows a sense of spacial awareness of all enemies around him when he let off that blast, and judgement to know when to let it out. Stanley's kinda like a Battle-Idiot-Savant. Once he gets into things he's a tiny whirlwind of death. If the fighting had been on the ground instead of being airborn, Transylvito's specialty, Stanley may have forced the Vamps to fall back instead of making a Foolamancy retreat. Stanley was even able to keep some of his units afterwards.

Stanley isn't a planner, but he's got good battle judgement when he's in combat himself and aware of what is happening where in real time. That's probably why he gets so lonely and stir crazy as an Overlord. He was so good as a Warlord and a Chief Warlord that he got promoted into a job he's not good at.

He also kept FAQ a secret as a last ditch fall back, so that shows forward thinking skills too. He's just incredibly ADD.

Lor wrote:It really is too bad Maggie's card catalog is in such shambles. It is wasn't, she could just play back a certain memory:

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_124


Heh. I linked that exact comic to my entire Alliance (as in I was the Overlord) when I was playing a PvP Alliance vs Alliance game online once. I spotted some guys trying to crawl up our rear and make an invasion lane to come after our Objectives to prevent us winning the server. I caught their suspicious territory movements and called them on it, so they immediately launched a series of invasions. That comic was sort of a rallying cry as we were beginning to feel the stress of a few dozen skirmishes, and we held strong as the battles started to creep into the hundreds. In the end, because I had organized the guys and gotten so much Grade - A support from them, we held our objectives long enough to win.

Just wanted you to know Rob, your comic has won at least one war already.

Oberon wrote:
BakaGrappler wrote:I'm more a fan of Parson and Artemis hooking up. That would be optimal in my mind.
She is decrypted, and he already explained why he wouldn't want to bang a decrypted archon. The possibility of Wanda peeping through it's eyes skeeves him out.


And now he knows which of the Decrypted units she can see through, and Warlords don't have the Thinkamancy Special that allow it to happen. But I already took Decryption into account, as in my head Artemis would end up turning from a Wanda unit to a Hamster unit without even realizing it, cutting the link because of Natural Thinkamancy. And you know, if Parson does end up using the Magic Kingdom as a center of command as I think he will, then he and Artemis will end up being around each other quite often.
Hey, have you read Shadows of the Evergreen? It's my ErfFic. People say it's pretty good over here, and who am I to argue? Check it out, and then tell me what you think of my hack writing.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby YesNinja » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:06 pm

On spying on the GMtTA: Any sort of magical transmit-sound-or-thoughts-to-someone-else (like a listening device, or something) wouldn't work. If I remember correctly, the Temple is made out of stuff that blocks thinkamancy going out or coming in. So it'd HAVE to be a traitor of some sort, which I wouldn't be entirely surprised about.


But seriously, though. Why do the Great Minds hate Charlie? What sort of secrets did Parson learn that could be used against Charlie? There seem to be a lot of heated, emotional, dramatic plot points revolving around those two things, and I for one don't understand why. O.o
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:09 am

LordAcme wrote:Except that unlike us Stupidworlders, Erfworld casters can actually sense the magical properties of things they are holding.
Source?
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Lilwik » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:09 am

YesNinja wrote:There seem to be a lot of heated, emotional, dramatic plot points revolving around those two things, and I for one don't understand why.
We're not supposed to understand it. Whatever this is about, it is something huge, something deep into areas of magic that we don't know about. The Thinkamancers are sure that Parson wouldn't understand, so I'm sure that we wouldn't understand. They use the word "metaphysical," which must mean that the secrets they are keeping from Parson are about the fundamental nature of reality. The idea that Charlie could be a metaphysical threat is baffling and ever so curious.

Consider Summer Update 41: "My secrets have been compromised. You can't imagine what that may mean." If the issue of Charlie really is metaphysical then maybe he really meant it literally and some secret Charlie is keeping has implications beyond Jillian's comprehension of the world, something about the underlying nature of Erfworld that Jillian could never imagine, something that Charlie discovered through the Arkendish, something that the Great Minds know about, and something we can only guess at.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Not Me » Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:42 pm

I haven't studied those things too much, but I'm surprised many people have commented on the "security" of the Temple in how to put on a "listening device" as we in Stupidworld would normally spy but no one has mentioned how the same way as other devices in Isaac's playground kind of magnified "Thinkamancy" as if it worked through wave or light theory this Temple looks like it also has many implications in those regards with the column patterns (I think that's related with diffraction) and the colours of those columns.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby mortissimus » Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:56 pm

Lilwik wrote:
YesNinja wrote:There seem to be a lot of heated, emotional, dramatic plot points revolving around those two things, and I for one don't understand why.
We're not supposed to understand it. Whatever this is about, it is something huge, something deep into areas of magic that we don't know about. The Thinkamancers are sure that Parson wouldn't understand, so I'm sure that we wouldn't understand. They use the word "metaphysical," which must mean that the secrets they are keeping from Parson are about the fundamental nature of reality. The idea that Charlie could be a metaphysical threat is baffling and ever so curious.

Consider Summer Update 41: "My secrets have been compromised. You can't imagine what that may mean." If the issue of Charlie really is metaphysical then maybe he really meant it literally and some secret Charlie is keeping has implications beyond Jillian's comprehension of the world, something about the underlying nature of Erfworld that Jillian could never imagine, something that Charlie discovered through the Arkendish, something that the Great Minds know about, and something we can only guess at.


Interesting line of thought.

He, this will so make the Charlie is the Dish speculation return.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Tonot » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:32 pm

This place is obviously a game, right, and maybe a computer game at that?. However, as yet, we have seen no indication of actual players, people playing using a side, right, except Judy and Parson, and they both seem slightly different to what we might expect if they were "people" from outside, playing a side against other people from outside.

Maybe Charlies secret is he is a bug or a glitch, that is based on an outsider/player inside the game ( like Parson and Judy seem to have ) that developed when they were playing the Charlie character in an earlier game. He/they controlled the Dish, and became "alive" or something that thinks of itself as alive anyway. So now he is running games, or one long game, without outsiders at all, because while the game is running is the only time he is actually "alive".
And this explains why Charlies MO is hunkering down and promoting endless war, why he has spent such an effort to control access to info/hacking communications ( all to make sure he can derail any attempt or ability to "win" by anyone, to keep the game running) and why he doesn't go for The Win himself. Also, the G M T T A have worked something like this out, and want to die/finish the game, because they don't like the idea that they are mere puppets in a matrix.
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