Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby 0beron » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:09 pm

mortissimus wrote:He, this will so make the Charlie is the Dish speculation return.
I don't think this could ever be true anymore given what we know now. Charlie once was a physical unit. So while it's possible he has lost his physical body and is sustained solely by the 'Dish, he can't be the original sentience of the 'Dish itself. Subtle difference, but one I figured should be pointed out.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby LordAcme » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:55 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
LordAcme wrote:Except that unlike us Stupidworlders, Erfworld casters can actually sense the magical properties of things they are holding.
Source?


It was one of the first things we learned about Erfworld magic and casters. Panel 6
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F013.jpg. The wiki - http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Caster claims that all casters can feel the power of all scrolls, but can otherwise only sense the magic of their disciplines.

I don't know where they got that restriction, but even if it applies, we are talking about a hypothetical item that uses magic squarely in the disciplines of its intended targets. So I'm going to go with "they'd know" on this one.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Dinkum » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:04 pm

Oberon wrote:I find it interesting that all the thinkamancers are referring to Parson as a non-caster. That may end up being a colossal error on their part. Don't they have any curiosity as to how he is able to freely enter the MK? Don't they have any curiosity about why Jeftichew gave Parson a scroll, which would be worthless to a non-caster? For supposed intellectuals they appear to have huge, gaping blind spots in their critical thinking capabilities.


I think that the GMTTA were not privy to that specific information about the scroll. Jeftichew gave Parson the scroll in the tunnel, but Parson only consulted with Marie and Sizemore there as to its possible contents (b2-pg65-66). He's holding it in his hand as he exits the tunnel to the Jetstone portal (b2-pg67), but nobody pays it any mind or mentions it publicly. Parson enters Spacerock, still visibly holding the scroll (b2-pg99), without indication by anyone that it is anything different from the staff in his other hand. True, if only casters can use scrolls it should have raised a few eyebrows, but he was surrounded by stacked casters at the time. Nobody assumed he was the caster.

Bear in mind, even Wanda and Jack do not refer to Parson as a caster of any sort (b2-pg67), but simply that he has the ability to enter the magic kingdom. The only units who openly speculate about Parson's caster status are Trammenis and Slately (b2-p43), but it does not appear to be modus ponens on Trammenis' part to infer that Parson is able to enter the magic kingdom because he is a caster, rather he says that Parson can enter the magic kingdom and is also some sort of mathamancer. Parson himself draws the same conclusion, and simply states he is a warlord, not a caster, to Sizemore (b2-p46). It may be forgiven of him, but Stanley also just assumes it is something Parson can do (b2-txt49). Parson directly replies to Charlie that he can't cast the scroll, as he has no caster (b2-p108), but only because he had determined that he was not a caster as he had never asked the right question of his bracer (b2-txt59). Everyone who encounters Parson focuses on the giant ball of hamster weirdness, and does not pursue the logical possibility of him being a caster, instead treating the magic kingdom as just another rule he breaks. The only person who seems to have figured out that Parson is a caster is Charlie, but without something on-screen, there is no knowing what process of logic was used to arrive at that result.

All of this is a glorious Venn diagram of ignorance. HOWEVER, the fly in the ointment of all of this is Isaac was present in book 1 when Janis stated that Parson was a hippiemancer (b1-pg 140), right after Parson was knocked out. So, while book 2 was setting up this giant misdirection for the climax, it does seem odd that Isaac would suddenly forget what he was told unless he determined it was not true in the first place. To that end I have to agree with Oberon and wonder where the Greatness is supposed to enter the meeting of the Minds.

Apologies if I've missed or skipped anything, including any supplemental Book 1 material that might clarify this point.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby ftl » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:05 pm

Well, at the time, even here on the forums there was speculation that Janis was just lying to keep Parson alive. So Isaac wouldn't have necessarily believed her, just like some people here didn't.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Lipkin » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:19 pm

Possibly Parson subconsciously cast a Signamancy spell when he made his contract with Charlie. Charlie was able to detect the magic, be Parson was not.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Beeskee » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:49 pm

Parson has even demonstrated some Signamancer tenancies while performing city upkeep: giving the streets names.

But nobody has actually seen Parson cast yet, which seems to be the defining factor for a caster. Until that happens, he fits nicely into every Erfworlder's mental box of "unit with special caster-like abilities" that is not actually a caster.

When it does, what will they think? Multiclass Warlord+Caster? Does Erfworld even have those? If not, native Erfworlders may not even be able to imagine such a thing.

Parson's meals described him as a Warlord, Special. I would imagine Wanda, Sizemore, and Maggie know about that, too.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby ManaCaster » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:08 pm

LordAcme wrote:http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F013.jpg. The wiki - http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Caster claims that all casters can feel the power of all scrolls, but can otherwise only sense the magic of their disciplines.

I don't know where they got that restriction, but even if it applies, we are talking about a hypothetical item that uses magic squarely in the disciplines of its intended targets. So I'm going to go with "they'd know" on this one.

I think the article is referring to the fact that some casters have special senses relating to their discipline. For example, a Foolamancer has a telescopic view and can also "see what you see, you see". Wanda has a strong sense of how intact a corpse is. She said that Delphie had a special sense that allowed her to determine near term outcomes. Etc.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Dinkum » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:00 am

ftl wrote:Well, at the time, even here on the forums there was speculation that Janis was just lying to keep Parson alive. So Isaac wouldn't have necessarily believed her, just like some people here didn't.


True, and I believed it was a ruse myself at the end of book one, but that was because I didn't have any idea of what was going on. The magic kingdom doesn't get a lot of page time in book one, so it was easiest to assume that whatever Janis did has altruistic motives behind it, even if it she was lying. Based on what we knew of Erfworld at the time, it was the simplest explanation of his entering the Magic Kingdom. There may be something more nuanced to it at this point, but it was a reasonable hypothesis.

Anyway, the point that I failed to get around to was that the language in the comic is always very specific, and Rob seems to be a stickler for corrections and details. Even in the discussion of Parson's caster status, the text supports the possibility of a false dichotomy:

Parson b2-txt59 wrote:"So I am a caster of some kind. Or something,” he muttered.


Also it turns out the printed book one has exactly the additional page that discusses this gap in the GMTTA knowledge (pg 159) so I guess Isaac having Alzheimer's is a non-issue. Can you even talk about that sort of thing here?
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby bpzinn » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:34 am

Dinkum wrote:Also it turns out the printed book one has exactly the additional page that discusses this gap in the GMTTA knowledge (pg 159) so I guess Isaac having Alzheimer's is a non-issue. Can you even talk about that sort of thing here?


Apparently Rob has said text is ok, but no bonus images please. So spill!
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Xarx » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:29 am

In the first 2 panels, you can't tell who's speaking; it's a wide shot of the Temple.

Great Mind: A "Hippiemancer Warlord."
GM: I doubt the claim, actually.
GM: Well, the summon was clearly miscast.

GM: A miscast does seem likely. Certainly it was unforeseen that he would enter the Magic Kingdom.
GM: Or the Predictamancers withheld that from us...
GM: Within a link-up? Dubious.
GM: Is he a Hippiemancer?

Isaac (I think, top of head shown): Maggie. Is he?
Maggie: Again, I don't feel it's possible for me to discuss Parson, Lord Hamster within the constraints of Loyalty. I am sorry.

Isaac: A warlord in the Magic Kingdom is a clear and present danger.
Toga guy: If he can come here, he may be able to lead others here.
Pamelor: An army perhaps.
Isaac: Maggie, if you can't give us a good reason to release him, we will hold him ourselves and interrogate him.

Maggie: He is under Janis' protection. Would you start a war?

Issac: There are enough of us. And this is important enough.

Beat panel of Maggie's face.

Maggie: I do not know what he is, truly. And what I do know, I cannot share.
Isaac: That leaves us no recourse.

Maggie: Not at all. I can tell you why we must release him. I submit the following under Pinky Swear!

Isaac: It is so Pinkysworn.
Maggie: Fellow Thinkamancers, Lord Parson is what was sought. He is the most likely foreseeable solution to the Charlie problem.

Maggie: In my studied opinion, he is in fact the only warlord who can defeat Charlescomm. But his power is rooted in the free exercise of his extraordinary mind. We must constrain him as little as possible, and inform him as much as we dare.
Maggie: ...I go so far as to recommend we tell him all that we know of Charlie and the Arkendish.
GMTTA (various): No! Nay! Never!

Maggie: But! Knowing full well this body will not authorize such, I hereby swear my oath not to divulge it. To the best of my ability I shall guide him. But Lord Parson must and will discover his own reasons to bring Charlie down.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby LordAcme » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:34 pm

ManaCaster wrote:
LordAcme wrote:http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F013.jpg. The wiki - http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Caster claims that all casters can feel the power of all scrolls, but can otherwise only sense the magic of their disciplines.

I don't know where they got that restriction, but even if it applies, we are talking about a hypothetical item that uses magic squarely in the disciplines of its intended targets. So I'm going to go with "they'd know" on this one.

I think the article is referring to the fact that some casters have special senses relating to their discipline. For example, a Foolamancer has a telescopic view and can also "see what you see, you see". Wanda has a strong sense of how intact a corpse is. She said that Delphie had a special sense that allowed her to determine near term outcomes. Etc.


/shrug the wiki is unclear. But the comic is - a caster can sense the magic of a scroll "pulsing". So, sensing magic via physical contact is canon. Whether it applies to things other than scrolls, Idunno, but I don't think it's much of a stretch to say it does.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Dinkum » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:07 pm

Thank you, Xarx. It's almost criminal that readers can't see this page online, because it's relevant all the way to the epilogue of Book 2.

It is at least considered that Parson could be a caster, but the larger problem is that he is a warlord capable of entering the magic kingdom. The GMTTA (probably rightly so) does not ascribe as much importance to the mechanism of how he enters the magic kingdom, just the fact that he can. By the time we get to the end of Book 2, Parson hasn't given any sign of being a caster, and it appears to be a decided issue for the GMTTA at this point in time.

Maggie's manipulations are at least in part due to the Pinky Swear, and definitely foreshadow her part in Book 2 of choosing a side, as it were. We've seen breaking contracts and linkups in Erfworld can carry real physical consequences, although it remains to be seen where on the scale of enforcement a Pinky Swear sits. Parson was told (b1-pg84a) that Loyalty and Obedience are both Natural Thinkamancy, and Maggie directly tells Parson (b2-p33) after she gets him appointed that pitting her Duty against Loyalty and/or Obedience carries 'great personal risk', so I do think at the very least that skirting the letter of the law is something Maggie is extremely good at. Even so, Maggie's 'settled matters' from this Epilogue strike me as ominous.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby drachefly » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:13 pm

Criminal? :roll: If you can't consume the whole story for free... where will this lead? What if you had to pay for ALL of it? :o
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby effataigus » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:28 pm

No one in particular wrote:Come OOOONNNN~! With a set up like this, how am I the only one who's written Maggie/Parson fic? I mean, this is barely subtext, it's more like text!
Not exactly fan-fic, but this oldie passes the traumatization test: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1344&p=32420&hilit=dream+man#p32420
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Dinkum » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:26 pm

drachefly wrote:Criminal? :roll: If you can't consume the whole story for free... where will this lead? What if you had to pay for ALL of it? :o


Hey I paid, I'm way at the head of the line. But comparing the other additional pages to that one is almost unfair, since those are more action scenes and not the setup for the entire next book.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:27 am

I hope we get to hear from Sizemore in the next epilogue. Parson says he wants to start gathering allies. The most logical thing to do would be to start in the Magic Kingdom, and to have Sizemore be the one to make the contacts. But it all depends upon how Sizemore is feeling about recent events.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:32 am

Lipkin wrote:The most logical thing to do would be...have Sizemore [make some MK allies]. But it all depends upon how Sizemore is feeling about recent events.
And more importantly...upon how the MK feels about Sizemore. Recall that people started to view him a lot less favorably after hearing about Wanda, and also what Parson has been doing.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:48 am

0beron wrote:
Lipkin wrote:The most logical thing to do would be...have Sizemore [make some MK allies]. But it all depends upon how Sizemore is feeling about recent events.
And more importantly...upon how the MK feels about Sizemore. Recall that people started to view him a lot less favorably after hearing about Wanda, and also what Parson has been doing.

I meant Sizemore being the best choice depends on how he feels about recent events. Yes, how people feel about Sizemore will effect how successful he would be, but he still probably has the best relations with the MK of anyone currently at Parson's disposal, and if they say no to him, they'd probably say no to anyone associated with Gobwin Knob. It's not like Parson would send Decrypted to do such a thing. That would be pretty off putting. Wanda is out of the question for the same reason. He needs Maggie to help him with the GMTTA. That leaves Sizemore.
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Re: Epilogue 12 - Maggie and the Great Minds

Postby 0beron » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:00 am

That's very true. I think Maggie could be off-putting in a way too, because people are no doubt becoming a bit suspicious of how heavily the Thinkamancers are getting involved.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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