Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby twhitt » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:12 pm

multilis wrote:I thought archons were immune to foolomancy and Charlie scouted mainly with archons.

I don't know that they're immune, per se, just that Archons with the Foolamancy special are much more likely to make a spot check.

jeffseadot wrote:Would the unit be able to communicate? Golems and dolls can't really do so on their own, but who knows what a hybrid would be capable of? If it *could* communicate, then they'd have to deal with what to do in case the unit is interrogated. And even if not, studying its physiology/signamancy would undoubtedly provide some new information.

Parson specified that they be mindless. Hence, unable to communicate, and probably as immune to thinkamancy as it's possible to get. No mind means no thoughts.

lonetrey wrote:My biggest thought of speculation is, does "Walking into Mordor" involve teleportation/portal? What I was thinking of was a movable portal, transported by a Stealth Golem. Imagine walking right up to Charlie and having everyone pour out from right next to him! Seems like the kind of "gaming the system" strategy taht Parson would attempt. Only problem is they would need a Hat Magician (Haberdasher?).... But food for thought in the future.

I assume the point of walking into Mordor is the walking.

The sum total of this plan is: Yes, we know Archons can see through foolamancy, much of the time. But not every Archon can, and the spot is not guaranteed. Jack is good at what he does. Further, at this point it's completely unknown just how well Charlie is actively scouting his home territory. He's likely eliminated every nearby threat to his capital, and it may be that he considers that area considerably more secure than it actually is. Scouting may be infrequent, unlikely to hit every hex every turn, and not guaranteed to spot a stealth golem if in fact it's crossed. Walking into Mordor may get you quite far.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby Zippy the Squirrel » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:26 pm

Malanthyus wrote:...did I miss somewhere where they actually checked if the decrypted casters can still cast?

I didn't see anyone else answer this, so I wanted to pop in and say that I thought it was Jack who made the bonfire, as it's stated that only fake ones are allowed in the MK. And I'm sure that both Jack and Ace have been constantly doing minor spells ever since their deaths just to make sure they still could.

Edit: And as for a scout getting past patrolling Archons, it does help that it wouldn't have a mind to see, and there might be more than one way to conceal a unit. Camouflage, being made to look like a neutral unit that would naturally be in the area, et cetera.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby SNfinity » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:13 pm

Zippy the Squirrel wrote:
Malanthyus wrote:...did I miss somewhere where they actually checked if the decrypted casters can still cast?

I didn't see anyone else answer this, so I wanted to pop in and say that I thought it was Jack who made the bonfire, as it's stated that only fake ones are allowed in the MK. And I'm sure that both Jack and Ace have been constantly doing minor spells ever since their deaths just to make sure they still could.

Edit: And as for a scout getting past patrolling Archons, it does help that it wouldn't have a mind to see, and there might be more than one way to conceal a unit. Camouflage, being made to look like a neutral unit that would naturally be in the area, et cetera.


Also, when we got Ace's POV, he seemed completely confident in his ability to cast.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby ftl » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:53 pm

twhitt wrote:
jeffseadot wrote:Would the unit be able to communicate? Golems and dolls can't really do so on their own, but who knows what a hybrid would be capable of? If it *could* communicate, then they'd have to deal with what to do in case the unit is interrogated. And even if not, studying its physiology/signamancy would undoubtedly provide some new information.

Parson specified that they be mindless. Hence, unable to communicate, and probably as immune to thinkamancy as it's possible to get. No mind means no thoughts.


I bet they can make the golem so that Wanda can see through its eyes or something. Then it doesn't need to be able to communicate to report results.

The sum total of this plan is: Yes, we know Archons can see through foolamancy, much of the time. But not every Archon can, and the spot is not guaranteed. Jack is good at what he does. Further, at this point it's completely unknown just how well Charlie is actively scouting his home territory. He's likely eliminated every nearby threat to his capital, and it may be that he considers that area considerably more secure than it actually is. Scouting may be infrequent, unlikely to hit every hex every turn, and not guaranteed to spot a stealth golem if in fact it's crossed. Walking into Mordor may get you quite far.


Maybe the answer is not to use foolamancy, but more mundane types of deception. For example, make it a golem that just looks like a log. Not via foolamancy, just something that actually looks like a log, except it has Move and has little extendable/retractable legs. Or something that looks like an inedible wild animal.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby Pax » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:02 pm

"Operation: Simply Walk Into Mordor" ... BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!! Oh gods, that's great ...!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby Zippy the Squirrel » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:11 pm

ftl wrote:Maybe the answer is not to use foolamancy, but more mundane types of deception. For example, make it a golem that just looks like a log. Not via foolamancy, just something that actually looks like a log, except it has Move and has little extendable/retractable legs. Or something that looks like an inedible wild animal.


Hehe, yeah, like the Luggage from Discworld, or the footrest from Beauty & the Beast, but more mundane.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby Oliolli » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:12 pm

Or maybe as preciously mentioned:

No one in particular wrote:
Oliolli wrote:Lastly, any guesses as to what the stealth golem will look like to those who can see it?


No, no, wait! It'll be a brown, cardboard box! :D
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby ManaCaster » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:17 pm

Oberon wrote:I'm wondering how Parson knows Artemis' stats, since he isn't wearing his 3D glasses. Sure, he could have used them off-panel, but then they'd only be used in battle scenes when he needed to see the stats of enemy units.

Maybe its because he unlocked his caster special? Then again, he has almost certainly lost it again and gotten amnesia from getting hit with that beam. Else he'd have looked into it already.

Oberon wrote:It's a fair question, since Parson himself brought up the doubt long after the archons were decrypted. Archons are not casters. They are a flying, knight class unit with specials that include leadership and dance fighting, and one of several different types of casting as 'natural magic'. Having a special that gives you access to a few spells in a discipline does not a caster make.

No, but they do use juice, so they are almost certainly just more primitive versions of the same thing.

twhitt wrote:I don't know that they're immune, per se, just that Archons with the Foolamancy special are much more likely to make a spot check.

"Scouts go first, so there's no chance of ambush. Not even a veiled one, 'cause they're Archons."
"But he had still gone to great risk to give her cover along the way, using veiled Archons to scout out safe routes. These were probably detectable only by a Foolamancer, another Archon, or a lucky/smart Warlord. Unfortunately, Gobwin Knob had all three of those things."

It is almost certainly a result of the fact that Archons have access to basic Foolamancy themselves. And Foolamancers can sense Foolamancy.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby No one in particular » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:38 pm

Oh! I just got that! "Simply Walk Into Mordor" SWIM. Parson isn't going to send the stealth unit through Charlie's portal, he's going to send it across the ocean.

I bet this is just part of a two-pronged attack, too. I look forward to seeing what Operation SINK will be like! :D
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby twhitt » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:42 pm

ManaCaster wrote:
twhitt wrote:I don't know that they're immune, per se, just that Archons with the Foolamancy special are much more likely to make a spot check.

"Scouts go first, so there's no chance of ambush. Not even a veiled one, 'cause they're Archons."
"But he had still gone to great risk to give her cover along the way, using veiled Archons to scout out safe routes. These were probably detectable only by a Foolamancer, another Archon, or a lucky/smart Warlord. Unfortunately, Gobwin Knob had all three of those things."

It is almost certainly a result of the fact that Archons have access to basic Foolamancy themselves. And Foolamancers can sense Foolamancy.
Yes. I agree. Well, mostly.

First off, I would say that almost all of these scenarios are probabilistic in nature. I don't know the rules, I don't know the ratios, but it's a fair bet that there's something which makes the result of a spot check uncertain; obviously, the plot drives the ultimate success or failure. Wanda spotted a disguised (veiled? idk) scout at level one. Haggar's column eventually spotted six veiled Archons. Bonus points: that update mentions spot checks, and suggests that you get a certain number per round.Archons spotted Maggie's Foolamancy scroll, but no one else did. No one, not Ossomer, Tramennis, Lloyd, Ace or Pierce, were able to spot Jack's Foolamancy of the air team.

Warlords have a decent chance of making the check; some Archons have leadership. Foolamancers would seem to have an excellent chance of making the check; some Archons have Foolamancy. Importantly, not all Archons have leadership and not all Archons have Foolamancy. If you're using Archons to search for veiled ambush, you'll obviously want the ones with Leadership, or Foolamancy, or both, as Parson likely knew. But all this means that some Archons are no more likely to make the check than any flying, knight-class unit.

Parson would know what he was doing when sending out Archons to find dwagons, and he would use appropriate ones. Charlie, too, wouldn't be using the wrong tool for the job, so his home terrain will be scouted by units with the appropriate specials. But how many of those does he have, especially in reserve instead of on active duty elsewhere? How many hexes can they check? How often do they check them? These are important questions, and simply Walking into Mordor is the way to find out some of the answers.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby lonetrey » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:56 pm

Lipkin wrote:Think about Jillian's fight with he Tin Man. Stabbed him through the chest, but he was unaffected because he didn't have a heart. A stuffed unit would only resemble a normal one, but in reality would be a sand golem covered in a skin suit. They'd be more durable, and unnerving as hell to fight against. Picture an army of dead eyed automatons marching at you, shrugging off losing limbs and being impaled as if it was nothing. While Decrypted are good, there are some advantages to uncroaked that are being overlooked.


Ooh, good point. No reaction, no morale issues.
And without the decay, it'd be a lot more worthwhile to Uncroak them.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby Aquillion » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:27 pm

He should've let Artemis stay; her input might've been useful. Even if she's not a caster, she knows a lot about tactics.

Anyway, it seems Ace is on the right side, given that his very first important mission is "invent something new and cool."
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby drachefly » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:40 pm

technojunkie wrote:With all those high level thinkamancers... I'm thinking Parson might have at his disposal the means to exceed a 4 caster linkup.


I would bet almost anything that a large number of high level thinkamancers are not in themselves enough to link more than 3 casters.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby Zippy the Squirrel » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:04 pm

Considering Maggie was able to link two other casters together pretty easily... Although, she also wasn't able to sever a link without causing damage... then again, a Master Thinkerdinger was able... I could see it working, I think. Wanna make the bet real, drache? I think there's some sort of official betting pool thread somewhere on these forums.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby Surfal » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:19 pm

lonetrey wrote:What about... Croakamancy/Dollamancy? I'm thinking of a rolling ball of croaked units (Name needs work). The more unit it rolls over and kills, the more is added to its mass.


Katamari Dollamancy.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby Lilwik » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:51 pm

There's a big difference between spotting a veiled ambush and spotting a veiled scout. An Archon might be capable of failing to notice a well-veiled individual unit even if there's no chance of an Archon missing an entire veiled full stack. Parson probably meant there was no chance of a veiled ambush big enough to be dangerous.

He was veiled. From Episode 5: "He was wearing a very good scouting veil; she was very lucky to have spotted him in the tree." It seems that veils can be items worn like clothing as well as spells cast by a Foolamancer, but since both kinds are called veils and do approximately the same thing, I'd bet that the rules for both are the same.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby Tonot » Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:40 pm

When a unit dies, and their body vanishes at the turn end, does their weapon and armour also vanish?. Jillians hat was captured when she was captured, would it have simply vanished and not been a spoil of war if she had been killed?.

Where do Artefacts and Items come from, are they always things that have been carried and used by opponents?. I assumed that they were weapons/armour/tools you get as a drop when you kill enemies and that they are there because the enemy was using it. No?.

And I am asking this because I wonder, when there has been a fight, do the winning sides gather battle-field spoils?. Weapons and stuff?. Do they expect to see gear left laying around from opponents?.

Doll/Foolamancy : Make up a Voltron kind of unit. It doesn't need to be over sized, as the point of it would be to be a multiple of independent units, enemies would look at it and engage it as a single unit, but as it moved into battle, any part of it that was hit could be sacrificed, say a limb, and not interfere with the stats of the other units. Because it looked as if it were one unit, it might only attract the opposition of one or two opponents initially.
They could maybe instantly separate and attack independently, or drop a unit that looks like a limb that has been shot/hacked off, move away, and the dropped unit, which would look harmless, is then in a position to flank, or act as an in-place spy, or provide covering fire, etc.

If the head of each "voltron" had command, you could have what looked like a "Stack" but was really one command unit and seven "voltron" units. It would look like one single stack but actually be 8 stacks, one of which would be a single commander unit, and the others, seven "voltrons" which would each be stacks of one commander "head" and seven "member and torso" units.

So instead of being a platoon, it would be a company, with a command unit.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby Not Me » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:34 pm

Tonot wrote:When a unit dies, and their body vanishes at the turn end, does their weapon and armour also vanish?. Jillians hat was captured when she was captured, would it have simply vanished and not been a spoil of war if she had been killed?.

Where do Artefacts and Items come from, are they always things that have been carried and used by opponents?. I assumed that they were weapons/armour/tools you get as a drop when you kill enemies and that they are there because the enemy was using it. No?.

And I am asking this because I wonder, when there has been a fight, do the winning sides gather battle-field spoils?. Weapons and stuff?. Do they expect to see gear left laying around from opponents?


Charlie said he would take the "Mathamancy artifact" from Parson's remains if he had to.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby ManaCaster » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:49 pm

Lilwik wrote:
There's a big difference between spotting a veiled ambush and spotting a veiled scout. An Archon might be capable of failing to notice a well-veiled individual unit even if there's no chance of an Archon missing an entire veiled full stack. Parson probably meant there was no chance of a veiled ambush big enough to be dangerous.

Are you saying that if a single master-class Foolamancer stayed in a hex waiting to attack Stanley, he'd count as a scout instead of an ambush because there isn't a full stack?

Tonot wrote:When a unit dies, and their body vanishes at the turn end, does their weapon and armour also vanish?. Jillians hat was captured when she was captured, would it have simply vanished and not been a spoil of war if she had been killed?

Ordinary items vanish when the corpse does. Magic items probably don't. Artifacts definitely don't.
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Re: Epilogue 17 - Parson's Staff Meeting

Postby 0beron » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:21 pm

Ok here are the problems with the whole "Archons have Foolamancy which lets them auto-see veils" proposal.
  1. We have no confirmation that the Archons who have seen through veils actually posses Foolamancy
  2. The only time this ability is actually discussed, the Archons themselves refer to it as SPELL SENSE, indicating it might be a special all to itself, or a passive trait of spell-casting units in general.
  3. Just because they have seen through veils before doesn't mean they're doing so automatically, they could still be rolling a "spot check" that has just coincidentally succeeded whenever it mattered for the plot.
So yes, maybe Archons see through veils at least at better odds...but we don't know what mechanic allows them to do that.
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