Summer Updates - 037

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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby DevilDan » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:26 pm

Yosarian wrote:I know the normal way to do things is to pop siege units in cities, but I wonder if Parson might manage to use his own knowledge from our world to do what they really did in medieval times and just build the siege equipment in the field near the castle out of nearby trees. Perhaps having a Twoll do naturally stuffamancy to help him create some of the small parts for a catapult?

A single twoll might not be capable of building one catapult each turn, but six or eight, each working assembly-line style to create standardized parts, with other units assisting with the assembly... maaaaybe.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Lord Kasavin » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:49 pm

DevilDan wrote:
Yosarian wrote:I know the normal way to do things is to pop siege units in cities, but I wonder if Parson might manage to use his own knowledge from our world to do what they really did in medieval times and just build the siege equipment in the field near the castle out of nearby trees. Perhaps having a Twoll do naturally stuffamancy to help him create some of the small parts for a catapult?

A single twoll might not be capable of building one catapult each turn, but six or eight, each working assembly-line style to create standardized parts, with other units assisting with the assembly... maaaaybe.


Yeah, but have you ever tried to build a catapult? It's a lot harder than it looks unless you have like blueprints and tools or stuff. Sure, you've seen them on TV and maybe even seen one fired in person, but thats a far cry from actually knowing how to build one that can actually fire something. I highly doubt the typically apathetic Parson ever picked up a hammer or anything mechanical.

On another note, I suspected something had to change to bring Parson out of his slump. I considered an order from Stanley, having his life threatened, finding religion, pep speech from a caster, to save Sizemore's life, or boredom. Boredom always seemed the most likely. I just envision a future Wanda walking in on his display:

Wanda: You're using the board to keep track of our troops?

Parson: No, I'm just simulating Erfworld battle mechanics for fun.

Wanda: You scare me.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby DevilDan » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:11 pm

Except, Lord K, you're forgetting that he already has examples of siege engines all around him. He just needs to take one apart, refine or simplify the design, and he's in business. I bet there are things that the twolls' fabrication ability allows that would put most modern tools to shame, too.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Yosarian » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:37 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:
DevilDan wrote:
Yosarian wrote:I know the normal way to do things is to pop siege units in cities, but I wonder if Parson might manage to use his own knowledge from our world to do what they really did in medieval times and just build the siege equipment in the field near the castle out of nearby trees. Perhaps having a Twoll do naturally stuffamancy to help him create some of the small parts for a catapult?

A single twoll might not be capable of building one catapult each turn, but six or eight, each working assembly-line style to create standardized parts, with other units assisting with the assembly... maaaaybe.


Yeah, but have you ever tried to build a catapult? It's a lot harder than it looks unless you have like blueprints and tools or stuff. Sure, you've seen them on TV and maybe even seen one fired in person, but thats a far cry from actually knowing how to build one that can actually fire something. I highly doubt the typically apathetic Parson ever picked up a hammer or anything mechanical.


(shrug) Ok. How about just a battering ram? The kind where you build a little wooden enclosere open at the front, cover it with hides to protect it from arrows, then roll it up to the front gate, and swing the battering ram against the gate using ropes. No mechanical parts, nothing hard; so long as a twoll can make wheels and ropes, and you've got a few pikers that can do simple manual labor, you're in business.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Retconjurer » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:59 am

Yosarian wrote:(shrug) Ok. How about just a battering ram? The kind where you build a little wooden enclosere open at the front, cover it with hides to protect it from arrows, then roll it up to the front gate, and swing the battering ram against the gate using ropes. No mechanical parts, nothing hard; so long as a twoll can make wheels and ropes, and you've got a few pikers that can do simple manual labor, you're in business.

"So, if I took a brick and threw it..." Yeah. You could do that. It wouldn't be as effective as, you know, just bringing a ram from the city, but it would work. I mean, Twolls can't have an infinite supply of Fabrications (and you'd have to move them. They're garrison units).

At least that's what I would extrapolate from earlier scenes.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby atteSmythe » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:28 pm

Retconjurer wrote:
Yosarian wrote:(shrug) Ok. How about just a battering ram? The kind where you build a little wooden enclosere open at the front, cover it with hides to protect it from arrows, then roll it up to the front gate, and swing the battering ram against the gate using ropes. No mechanical parts, nothing hard; so long as a twoll can make wheels and ropes, and you've got a few pikers that can do simple manual labor, you're in business.

"So, if I took a brick and threw it..." Yeah. You could do that. It wouldn't be as effective as, you know, just bringing a ram from the city, but it would work. I mean, Twolls can't have an infinite supply of Fabrications (and you'd have to move them. They're garrison units).

At least that's what I would extrapolate from earlier scenes.

GK isn't really in the best situation to be having this conversation right now. These things would have to be done to supplement GK's production if its flow of units and schmuckers was already maxed out.

Popping something may be easier than making it, but if you can't pop it for whatever reason (out of time or money), making it is the only alternative. Since popping is easy, Erfworlders don't seem to think of making things manually - it'd be an unexpected difference that Parson could bring to the battle.

Edit: A better example right now is FAQ. Having her capitol's production tied up for 60 turns, I'm sure Jillian would appreciate some supplemental production, however inefficient.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby DevilDan » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:57 pm

Yes, but think about it this way: even a large and wealthy city like GK was only producing one twoll a day—someone suggested two, but I believe that one was a reasonable reading of the text. Larger units would presumably take more and more turns.

Stanley is going out every day to gather dwagons, building up his dwagons in a radically more rapid way than he could otherwise.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Danetrix » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:49 pm

DevilDan wrote:Stanley is going out every day to gather dwagons, building up his dwagons in a radically more rapid way than he could otherwise.


To continue this line of thought: Not every side could do this sort of thing either, as Stanley's gathering of the dragon's is part of the Hammer's abilities. Hmm. Maybe griffons can be tamed without the use of such a tool, as they aren't as powerful a unit as a dragon?

Also in the case of FAQ, I would not imagine the range of hexes Jillian would be able to scope out would be anything compared to the strategy Parson thought of, which requires those archons to scout the hexes first.

Unless something like Vinney supplies her bats to search, but then, even those bats have low move, and it has been hypotesised the archons have quite a bit of move. So the range would still be smaller.

As Stanley has been doing this method for 11 turns (up to turn 19 post GK battle, strategy thought of turn 8 post GK battle) Jillians forces weren't big post GK and hasn't had the chance to build up anymore. (First under "capture" by TV, then as ruler of her city but it seems that the turns have been spent on a little bit of nessercary unit requirements like a few guards and a Warlord, admittedly a low level one)

In short, discounting TV, GK outclasses Jillian in the air significantly already with FAQ having little hope of catching up.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Lightbender » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:08 pm

Not just that Danetrix, but would she (or anyone in FAQ or Transylvito) be able to come up with that strategy? This one was all Parson, and we still don't really know if units like Gwiffons or any wild animal for that matter is tameable without an Arkentool.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Lord Kasavin » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:09 am

Lightbender wrote:Not just that Danetrix, but would she (or anyone in FAQ or Transylvito) be able to come up with that strategy? This one was all Parson, and we still don't really know if units like Gwiffons or any wild animal for that matter is tameable without an Arkentool.


Actually, I believed Vinny tamed a bat during the earlier summer updates. Wait, I can provide a link!

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... at_600.jpg

So, taming wild creatures is possible for standard non-Arkenhammer wielding units. However, I suspect their might be an "affinity" requirement. Such as you can only tame units your side was capable of popping on its own.

Edit: Also, I have to say Parson's plan to get more Dwagon's was pure Parson at his finest. I'm sure there are other sides out there who routinely round out troops by taming feral creatures. What Parson did (and is true of all his best plans) was min-max. He figured out a way to get the absolute most benefit while reducing the risks. The plan works because GK has: Archons, already some Dwagons, a vast expanse of Dwagon spawning Mountain hexes nearby, and the Hammer. So, it wasn't available to any normal side. However, it does require somebody realize they have this unique advantage. Furthermore, the fact Parson came up with this plan in a matter minutes is amazing.
Last edited by Lord Kasavin on Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby moose o death » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:22 am

for what it's worth, i concur.

vinny has tamed bats and stanley can tame and pop dwagons.

it'd be a safe bet that is exactly how the mecahnic works
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Danetrix » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:57 am

moose o death wrote:for what it's worth, i concur.

vinny has tamed bats and stanley can tame and pop dwagons.

it'd be a safe bet that is exactly how the mecahnic works


I guess the read-too-much-into-it question is "What quantifies what type of troop you can tame?"
We know Artefact, in the form of the Arkentools is one, but what else? (Considering there are magic items, and what not, even so I would not assume every Warlord would have a "taming item" if they even exist) Leadership? Your side's troop type (you can only gather the type of troop your side can produce)? Some kind of hidden affinity? I would also imagine there would be troop types you'll never find in the wild, such as the undead Wanda controls, in both the Croakamancer usual form and the Decryped Arkenplier type.

On the "Parson's strategy point"
I was going to point that out as well. But I figured that if Jillian's back may be forced aginst the wall in what type of unit she can produce, this may be the next logical step to take. She won't be nearly as effective, but she would be forced to do it, if she was wanting her army back.

Parson came up with a great way to do it, for sure. But I think it's more common knowledge that you can gather troops by taming them. So I think Jillan would do it, (depending on how the convo with TV's proxy Vinny goes, of course) but not be as effective.
Last edited by Danetrix on Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby moose o death » Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:49 am

the parson aspect was posted after my concurrance

it's among his better ideas.

the whole taming/uncroaking/decrypting thing seems fairly clear cut to me but an archon is throwing it out

the way i saw the mechanic is as follows

the city has access to certain raw materials for popping units. these units will be the cheapest to pop as they are provided for by the hex.
the next level is overlord units, specialised units of the overlords tribe
the next level of expense is from dutied units, ie sizemore's golems, or stanley's dwagons prior to the regicide. costs incurred depend on the process ie, sizemores golems are fabricated from raw materials where as warlord stanley's dwagons were being popped via a city not serving stanley using imported raw materials.

the uncroaked angle
it would seem wanda could only uncroak units stanley could command based on his cities etc, but like i said earlier this theory gets dashed because wanda does uncroak one or more archons. so while she can't uncroak weiner rammers or other units of the sort she could decrypt archons...my only other place to go from this point is to say she could only uncroak infantry units. but do warlords count as infantry?

the decrpted angle
wanda now seems to be able to decrypt any and all fallen units to full ability, the don't degrade and have zero upkeep. however traditional game logic indicates there is a balancing device we haven't been shown yet.
the the laws of thermodynamics from earthworld certainly back that theory up.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Yosarian » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:42 pm

DevilDan wrote:Actually, a decapitation strike would end the whole problem: GK units in the field disband, I believe.


Actually, I donno about that. Jillian didn't.

Perhaps Wanda, and her undead hoard, becomes a barbarian? That's...actually pretty scary.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby SteveMB » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:53 pm

Yosarian wrote:
DevilDan wrote:Actually, a decapitation strike would end the whole problem: GK units in the field disband, I believe.


Actually, I donno about that. Jillian didn't.


That's because she was the heir to Faq. Stanley has no heir, so taking him out would make the GK side "neutral" (i.e. easy pickings).
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Cmdr I. Heartly Noah » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:52 pm

moose o death wrote:the uncroaked angle
it would seem wanda could only uncroak units stanley could command based on his cities etc, but like i said earlier this theory gets dashed because wanda does uncroak one or more archons. so while she can't uncroak weiner rammers or other units of the sort she could decrypt archons...my only other place to go from this point is to say she could only uncroak infantry units. but do warlords count as infantry?


Well, she uncroaked warlords, archons, and unipegataurs. So we know she could uncroak fliers, mounts, and commanders. I think the only thing we know she could not uncroak is a weiner-rammer. Could she uncroak a dwagon? I don't remember any... though perhaps they required too much juice to be useful? With the dwagons gone, the archons and unipegataur were more valuable than normal and therefore worth as much juice as she could spare. Then again, I don't think we saw any uncroaked spiders or twolls either. Perhaps she was just too busy? Not worth the upkeep?

I'm guessing there's just a list of uncroakable units, perhaps somewhat arbitrary. I doubt she could uncroak a vampire or golem, but I wonder why weiner-rammers were non-uncroakable? It can't be their status as a mount - perhaps their status as a siege weapon?

the decrpted angle
wanda now seems to be able to decrypt any and all fallen units to full ability, the don't degrade and have zero upkeep. however traditional game logic indicates there is a balancing device we haven't been shown yet.
the the laws of thermodynamics from earthworld certainly back that theory up.


balancing regarding their effectiveness/value, or another, equally powerful force out there? Because I don't see any kind of weakness in a situation where getting your own men killed is valuable. The only possible negatives of decrypting are a) levelling further becomes impossible or b) some force out there (tool, magic) can cut through decrypted wholesale.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby moose o death » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:40 pm

it does seem somewhat arbitrary. dwagins maybe becuase they are an arkenhammer unit. but this also confuses the question as archons , MAY, be an arkendish unit. i'm inclined to believe they aren't. so far i think only stanley's tool adds units to the construction lists. archons are probably a natural unit of charlescomm, and archon knights probably defend his hex.

update 39 alludes to the idea more units of charlescomm may exist we are not aware of yet. charlesnchrg never specifically says his archons were killed only that his units in gk battlespace were defeated by three archons. his units at the time may have been bats doing routine surveilance for all we know. hell charlescomm may even have carrier pigeons as units.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby fjolnir » Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:28 am

I wouldn't be surprised if charlies archons aren't made similarly to the decrypted units, taking a popped unit and "upgrading" it rather than building one from scratch...

The arkentools seem to have 3 things they can do: an "if it's used as a weapon" effect (van de graff/uncroaked to dust) an "Upgrading effect" (Rock Out, Supa Thinkamancy, Decrypted benefits) and a "specialty tamed unit" (Archons?, Dwagons, and Decrypted) everything else seems to just be the abnormal warping of reality they cause
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Kaminobob » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:50 am

Cmdr I. Heartly Noah wrote:
moose o death wrote:the uncroaked angle
it would seem wanda could only uncroak units stanley could command based on his cities etc, but like i said earlier this theory gets dashed because wanda does uncroak one or more archons. so while she can't uncroak weiner rammers or other units of the sort she could decrypt archons...my only other place to go from this point is to say she could only uncroak infantry units. but do warlords count as infantry?


Well, she uncroaked warlords, archons, and unipegataurs. So we know she could uncroak fliers, mounts, and commanders. I think the only thing we know she could not uncroak is a weiner-rammer. Could she uncroak a dwagon? I don't remember any... though perhaps they required too much juice to be useful? With the dwagons gone, the archons and unipegataur were more valuable than normal and therefore worth as much juice as she could spare. Then again, I don't think we saw any uncroaked spiders or twolls either. Perhaps she was just too busy? Not worth the upkeep?

I'm guessing there's just a list of uncroakable units, perhaps somewhat arbitrary. I doubt she could uncroak a vampire or golem, but I wonder why weiner-rammers were non-uncroakable? It can't be their status as a mount - perhaps their status as a siege weapon?


My guess was simply that she could only uncroak "humanoid" units. It's a bit simplistic, but the least human thing ever rezzed was a unipegitaur, and that still has a human torso, so i'd like to think that the theory holds together.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby raphfrk » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:35 am

Cmdr I. Heartly Noah wrote:balancing regarding their effectiveness/value, or another, equally powerful force out there? Because I don't see any kind of weakness in a situation where getting your own men killed is valuable. The only possible negatives of decrypting are a) levelling further becomes impossible or b) some force out there (tool, magic) can cut through decrypted wholesale.


Another option is that they are a single point of failure. Maybe, they start to decay if the side loses the Arkenpliers or are automatically loyal to the wielder of the Arkenpliers.

The effectiveness of the strike force is massively dependent on Wanda. It isn't entirely a disadvantage, but it means that to get one of the benefits of the pliers, the wielder has to be put at risk. For it to be a disadvantage, there would need to be a penalty if Wanda isn't nearby.

The hammer probably is similar if it gives a bonus to dwagons.
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