Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:09 pm

Useful for a change, Rusty Trombone designed and directed the implementation of an interlocking array of spells that would draw on some of the magical disciplines they had to work from.
Was anyone else super interested in what this meant?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby ManaCaster » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:29 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
Useful for a change, Rusty Trombone designed and directed the implementation of an interlocking array of spells that would draw on some of the magical disciplines they had to work from.
Was anyone else super interested in what this meant?

I was curious too. Maybe casters can't actually mix disciplines without a caster link, but can still attach spells from their own disciplines together. For example, setting up Dirtamancy and Lookamancy so that if the Lookamancy spell detects an enemy unit, it tells a Dirtamancy trap to go off?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Azukar » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:02 pm

Well... I think if Charlie does have a cure/treatment for the Hero Buds, and Jillian bargains her Deal for the cure, then Wanda owes Jillian her life.

When you add that to how they've been acting together in the main series, this all gives Jillian and Wanda the most complicated relationship EVER.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby BakaGrappler » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:31 pm

God damned Charlie. Instead of selling the cure, he was selling the treatment.

Well, there is more profit in it, and Wanda is a huge liability for Charlie.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Lipkin » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:56 pm

Jabberwocky wrote:
ManaCaster wrote: Though if that were the case, they should be aiming the same kind of vitriol at their Shockamancer.


And about Croakamancy being disrespectful! Given the existence of Duty, shouldn't most units be glad that their remains can continue to serve their Side even after they've been croaked? Especially since the Uncroaked can be sacrificed in place of still living units? Really, in a world that focuses so much on war, Croakamancy seems as merciful and life saving as healomancy.

If Uncroaked only fought for the side they originally belonged to, you might have a point. But uncroaked fight for the side that raised them up again, even if that was the side that killed them. If you knew that your body was going to be reanimated and forced to kill your friends and allies, would you be happy about it, or horrified?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby drachefly » Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:09 pm

0beron wrote:they should see her individually as a huge asset and embrace her curiosity about magic.


I wonder when that curiosity reversed to the disinterest displayed in book 1. I suppose FAQ might be enough to turn her around, if the many experiments with linkups weren't enough.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Tonot » Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:29 pm

No one in particular wrote:Man, I do not get why everyone is hating on the Court so much.

Some things to consider:
*Says many thoughtful things*



There is much in what you say. I still don't like them of course, because just because a population or culture thinks it has reasons for bigotry, isn't justification for same, but you do raise some valid points about their behaviour.

Apartheid era South Africa had "reasons" for what it did, and not all of them can be dismissed out of hand, especially by any people* who, covertly or overtly, supported carpet bombing of Communist countries merely to "stop the fall of dominos" and make their own societies a trifle more secure. That doesn't make apartheid or its adherents someone to not hate.

*As did my own, and many of the rest of my own countries allies too, just to make it clear I am not casting any stones.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby 0beron » Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:36 pm

drachefly wrote:I wonder when [Wanda's] curiosity [about out-of-school casting] reversed to the disinterest displayed in book 1. I suppose FAQ might be enough to turn her around, if the many experiments with linkups weren't enough.
I was musing on this earlier, and with some input from Warriortribble, came to the conclusion that it was likely a slow process. It began when she was forced to try make up for all the lost casters in the final days of Haffaton, and the way she's being treated by FAQ's Court is probably the last straw. When everyone focuses on one aspect of you as if that is all that matters about you (as the Court is doing to her Croakamancy), the typical response is to either 1) disown that part entirely and pretend you aren't that thing or 2) latch on to that singular identity and try to reclaim it as a source of strength, dismissing other parts of yourself.

So being forced to multi-cast and find her abilities falling short, topped off with being told all that matters is being a Croakamancer...and you have a recipe for her quitting her other studies.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby 0beron » Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:40 pm

Also....has anyone else noticed an interesting trend with Wanda and big spells? Twice she has cast a spell (and needed a Tower bonus to pull it off) that has played a huge part in Fate...and both times it was Findamancy. (Getting the 'Shoes, and getting Parson) I wonder if she's noticed this. If not, pointing it out to her might convince her that her abilities as an out-of-discipline caster are an important part of her Fate, and get her to start studying again.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Shai_hulud » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:05 am

Or she'll decide to go strangle a Findamancer to death.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:51 am

warriortribble wrote:Must admit, it's strange to see Wanda slowly dying when there's a Healomancer in their hex. It does make you wonder about the limitations of what sounds like an all-purpose healing class. Some possibilities are:

1. Besty is simply not skilled or high enough to help. Definitely possible since she rarely sees combat and Faq is hardly an ideal place to learn medicine.

2. She doesn't want to help Wanda. Considering the contempt the court is showing the Croakamancer, it's possible she doesn't want to go out of her way to research and cure an ailment that's most certainly new to her. She'll heal any combat injuries Wanda gets, but otherwise, she's content in letting Wanda wither away.

3. Kind of related to 1, Healomancy is simply insufficient in repairing the damage done to Wanda. I suppose Wanda is so close to death that she'll need other forms of magic (like life extending Carnymancy) in order for any long term solutions to be attempted on her.


Yeah one thing that has bugged me about these recent updates is that the subject of asking Betsy to help heal them of their affliction has not come up once. I can imagine its possible that there is nothing Betsy can do in this case, but i would like to see that addressed... just some mentioned that they tried to get betsy's help only to find that she could not cure them and could only, at best, stave off the affliction.

I imagine that the cure might require some high level healomancy, such as requiring a link up between Charlie and Betsy to cure Olive's poison.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Lipkin » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:05 am

Betsy was unable to reverse the effect the burning garden had on the court. That's enough for me to presume she would be unable to effect the aftermath. It would probably be a Hippiemancer that is needed, not a Healomancer.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby bpzinn » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:24 am

CelebrenIthil wrote:I don't know if there are still debates on how important the NDA-covered information might be so as to warrant the protective measure, but that Charlie has had heroine bud addiction AND the possibility that he might be dependant on some form of medication to counteract the addiction and prevent himself from wasting away is... a pretty exploitable weakness if it it falls into the wrong (right) hands.
Freakishly huge stupidworlder hands.

From the book 0 episode 76 thread
Spoiler: show
bpzinn wrote:
niklinna wrote:There's also the distinct possibility that Charlie's still on the buds in Parson's time. Any time he does a Thinkamancy call with somebody, his and their forms are constantly shifting and warping, in sometimes highly psychedelic ways. That, or the buds have permanently deranged him.


More than a possibility. Charlie stated he was worried about his secrets coming out. And to my ears I have not heard a really BIG secret he should be worried about until now.

we have: the initial Archon debiref. Which has been out of the bag for a while now. Also, quite possibly misinformation.
Charlies caster status, side history, and familial fallout. Great for the dossier, and to get inside Charlies head. Not something to start a war over to keep hidden in an of itself.

What you can infer from it if you gather all the small details.
1. (if you know the signamancy of the Wizard of Oz) to look for the arken shoes along the far edge of any deserts, probably near the emerald city, or the side Haffatons borders.
2. that Charlie might have the unfun version of spice addiction. "The buds must flow" "He who controls the buds controls the Charlie"

Now THAT sounds like a secret.

And why he did the complete change of plans. Because he knew ALL the details of the Contract; he was part of the link that forged it. You have people who who have enough pieces of the puzzle, bound to secrecy unto the grave. There is Parson, who could put those pieces together. And then Wanda starts resurrecting people from the dead. Charlie could feel Fates noose closing around him.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby bpzinn » Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:19 am

Zero Baron wrote:The Court is so ridiculous...I mean seriously.


The court is a Joke, agreed. However,

0beron wrote:...the Titans created them all, shouldn't that be enough of a justification that Croakamancy has it's place in the world...

Is a Bad Idea to use as a Axiom, considering Erfworld seems to be build as a perpetual War Machine. And considering Banhammer is aware of this and trying to opt out of the system as much as he can, the proper answer to "The Titans created the Croakamancy discipline, and that makes it all right"
is of course "Fuck the Titans, and fuck the horse they rode in on too!"

Condemn them for something else, not that.

0beron wrote:Especially given how much Wanda studies other schools, they should see her individually as a huge asset and embrace her curiosity about magic. With her Croakamancy senses, Betsy could be learning TONS from Wanda, together they might even be able to devise ways of healing units that were previously thought to be beyond recovery.
This must be why Wanda develops a distaste for out-of-school casting. She got so beaten down and pummeled for her native discipline and told that discipline was her only distinguishing quality, so she did the textbook physiology thing and focused on that as an identity of strength, overcompensating as it were.


Like this. Except I doubt she was ever even told that; it was always just bigotry so ingrained, it colored every interaction with her...

Think about it, in Haffaton Olive was getting the other Casters killed left and right, because their "disciplines didn't matter." Wanda takes up the slack as much as she can, and even though it probably makes the side last longer, no one really appreciates it or cares, because the rules has given up, and Olive is still completely Batshit insane, and saying, "their disciplines don't matter, and your discipline does not matter, but by making yourself more conspicuous (and successful), I am having to expend more mental energy maintaining by bullshit idea of the world. I will now make you life even worse then it was before. So there!"

And then she meets the Faq Court. How are also completely delusional, as evidenced their ability to make successfully make "Disbelief Illusion" against the real world. These are not people who see the world as it is, and THEN reject that to go their own way. THOSE people have a tower that gives a decent bonus when the real world stops by for tea.

The court of Faq is just as capable of rationalizing their bullshit as Olive. So if Wanda tried to go beyond her discipline in Faq, the song would likely be, "We already have a whatevermancer who can do it better than you, so why even try" with "Croakamancers suck, and you are a Croakamancer so you suck, and if you do something to make us need to reexamine that thought it will make us uncomfortable and treat you even worse, and why haven't you learned this lesson already?"

There comes a point where you realize you cannot prove yourself right, or them wrong, because they decide what gets logged into evidence and what does not. And you stop trying. And eventually not trying becomes habit.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Zain » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:39 am

Lamech wrote:What if it only fixes the physical damage? The cure doesn't fix the mental part of the addiction. So Charlie doesn't have the willpower to break the addiction. Every few years he injects himself with the cure. Or every turn. Or he takes it with his bud. Now that is sort of less useful to Parson since it would take years for Charlie to die, and its probably as well protected as his garden. Maybe it could be corrupted, stolen, but then... so could the buds.


I'm actually tossing around the idea in my head that whatever Charlie's Cure is, is a Reset Button for addiction. So not only would it allow someone to begin to heal if they were already addicted, but if they choose to start over, the first bud would be fresh. Remember after a while they have diminishing effects on the mind, Wanda when under the budsmoke was lucidly aware of everything while Jillian was definitely on the edge of tripping out, with only her hunter senses keeping her aware.

If he could willingly reset it, not only would he have maximum buds for himself, but he'd be totally safe from long term damage.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby 0beron » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:04 am

bpzinn wrote:the proper answer to "The Titans created the Croakamancy discipline, and that makes it all right" is of course "Fuck the Titans, and fuck the horse they rode in on too!"
I disagree, that argument on the Court's behalf simply shows a lack of imagination on their part. Their disciplines were ALSO made with war in mind, and they have found other ways to use them, even if only as reference points for philosophical discussion. So if they were truly as enlightened as they claim to be, they would offer Wanda the same opportunity and attempt to learn together with her how Croakamancy might further educate them about magic and make a world a better place.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Lamech » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:22 am

0beron wrote:
bpzinn wrote:the proper answer to "The Titans created the Croakamancy discipline, and that makes it all right" is of course "Fuck the Titans, and fuck the horse they rode in on too!"
I disagree, that argument on the Court's behalf simply shows a lack of imagination on their part. Their disciplines were ALSO made with war in mind, and they have found other ways to use them, even if only as reference points for philosophical discussion. So if they were truly as enlightened as they claim to be, they would offer Wanda the same opportunity and attempt to learn together with her how Croakamancy might further educate them about magic and make a world a better place.

Croakamancy has no place in an ideal world from what we've seen. Its a discipline for war. Its raw materials come from corpses. Its only useful when something goes wrong. Similar to healomancy and shockamancy in that regard. Foolamancy prevents mistakes. Signamancy, lookamancy, predictamancy, all have non-combat uses too.

That said, I suspect that discussion is probably their welcome. They welcomed Wanda into their ranks, and are probably very confused.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Tonot » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:44 pm

Foolamancy does prevent mistakes.

Mistakes like, a stronger opposing force discovering you and your friends and murdering you all merely to advance an arbitrary, at-best-neutrally-moral*-cause. Or mistakes like the people your veiled murder squad is sneaking up on avoiding their throats being cut in YOUR arbitrary murder-cause.


*all of the sides merely kill because that is what they exist for. Even the Royal sides that are attacking GN are doing it in support of an extremely dubious cause "The right and proper leading of murder-sides by Royalty, and not by uppity peons". They can know no Morality, capital M, that isn't based on murder.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby Oberon » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:51 pm

warriortribble wrote:Must admit, it's strange to see Wanda slowly dying when there's a Healomancer in their hex. It does make you wonder about the limitations of what sounds like an all-purpose healing class. Some possibilities are:
[snippage]
2. She doesn't want to help Wanda. Considering the contempt the court is showing the Croakamancer, it's possible she doesn't want to go out of her way to research and cure an ailment that's most certainly new to her. She'll heal any combat injuries Wanda gets, but otherwise, she's content in letting Wanda wither away.
You'd think that not only would it be her duty to try her best to heal a valuable caster unit for her side, but also that doing so would bring her pleasure. But Betsy is a bit player, so this isn't getting the attention it might otherwise.
CelebrenIthil wrote:I don't know if there are still debates on how important the NDA-covered information might be so as to warrant the protective measure, but that Charlie has had heroine bud addiction AND the possibility that he might be dependant on some form of medication to counteract the addiction and prevent himself from wasting away is... a pretty exploitable weakness if it it falls into the wrong (right) hands.
Freakishly huge stupidworlder hands.
Another convenient fire to destroy Charlies' own heroine bud garden, perhaps? It's pretty clear that he ordered the elves to destroy the Halfaton bud garden just to get leverage over Jillian and Wanda, after all. And turn about is always fair play.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 078

Postby multilis » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:01 pm

A healomancer might be opposite sphere to croakomancer, just like elves don't get along with witches. (Can't have both as natural allies at same time, some elves have healing power, possible some witches have a little croakomancy power).

So possible that healomancer isn't trying that hard.
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