Summer Updates - 038

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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Gez » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:06 pm

Malanthyus wrote:Asking as someone with no familiarity with trigonometry, does that have anything to do with it?

Not particularly. They're still numbers, sure, but any other number would work well.

Trigonometry is, basically, cutting the whole world into little triangles, each of them with a right angle. You probably remember from school Pythagoras' Theorem: the hypotenuse squared is equal to the sum of the squares of both other sides. This means that if you know the lengths of two sides of a right triangle, you can compute the length of the third side. Also, you may as well remember that the sum of the angles of a triangle is always 180°, so again, if you know two of the angles, you can compute the third. Trigonometry is a set of formulas (sine, cosine, tangent, etc.) that deal with lengths and angles of right angles. Given that you can cut any polygon (including a non-right triangle) into a set of right triangles, you can apply trigonometry to anything.

But 180 is not a power of two; and when you take the square root of the sum of two squares, you rarely obtain a power of two. In fact, the only domain where you'd see powers of two and trigonometry side-by-side heavily is in computer science, for example in a video game. For convenience purposes the game world is typically divided into cells that have sides with a power-of-two length (might be 64, might be 128, might be 1024, might be a lot larger, depends on game) and the game relies on trigonometry to determine a character's movement according to its current speed and position. You've got a three-dimensional vector for the player's movement which is cut through trigonometry into a x, a y and a z component, and they're then added individually to the corresponding fields for the player's position, and there you go, the player has moved!
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Malanthyus » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:08 pm

And you don't think the intersection of powers of two and trigonometry used in a video game has any correlation this particular "scenario"? :P
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby cloudbreaker » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:08 pm

Yosarian wrote:I'm thinking pretty far ahead here, but...

As they take more cities and their side expands, they are going to want and need more warlords, right?

They might pop them, or the Tool might go back to his habit of promoting them up from the ranks. Either way...I'm imagining a new wave of warlords, 3 or 4 of them, all being trained by Parson on tactics and strategy in their new Situation Room battle simulator.

You think one person who thinks like Parson is going to shake up Erfworld...what about 5 of them?

You bring up a good point. There have been other warlords mentioned that were in GK since the explosion (Parson said he would sometimes walk with them on his rounds). Knowing this, I would expect not only for Parson to teach them a thing or two, but also for Parson to use those other warlords as consultants. Maybe for a "how would you react to this new scenario I cooked up" resource, if for nothing else.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Gez » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:10 pm

Malanthyus wrote:And you don't think the intersection of powers of two and trigonometry used in a video game has any correlation this particular "scenario"? :P

Parson's more of a tabletop guy. ;) And speaking of which...

cloudbreaker wrote:You bring up a good point. There have been other warlords mentioned that were in GK since the explosion (Parson said he would sometimes walk with them on his rounds). Knowing this, I would expect not only for Parson to teach them a thing or two, but also for Parson to use those other warlords as consultants. Maybe for a "how would you react to this new scenario I cooked up" resource, if for nothing else.

You mean, he's going to be a game master...
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby DevilDan » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:29 pm

Which mention of (gamemastering and the idea of others like Parson) all points us back to Parson's gamer friends/victims/players and their potential summoning to Erf.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby raphfrk » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:40 pm

Yosarian wrote:They might pop them, or the Tool might go back to his habit of promoting them up from the ranks. Either way...I'm imagining a new wave of warlords, 3 or 4 of them, all being trained by Parson on tactics and strategy in their new Situation Room battle simulator.


I wonder if they can gain levels by fighting mock battles.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Raza » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:16 pm

Good stuff. Jack's letting on that there's a person beneath the riddles here, which adds some realism to his character that a perfectly maintained facade lacks.

raphfrk wrote:
Yosarian wrote:They might pop them, or the Tool might go back to his habit of promoting them up from the ranks. Either way...I'm imagining a new wave of warlords, 3 or 4 of them, all being trained by Parson on tactics and strategy in their new Situation Room battle simulator.


I wonder if they can gain levels by fighting mock battles.

I imagine not, the conditions for gaining experience seem fairly strict in Erfworld. What they'd gain is unstatted insight, of the kind that distinguishes Parson from higher-leadership-statted warlords like Ansom.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Justyn » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:57 pm

raphfrk wrote:
Yosarian wrote:They might pop them, or the Tool might go back to his habit of promoting them up from the ranks. Either way...I'm imagining a new wave of warlords, 3 or 4 of them, all being trained by Parson on tactics and strategy in their new Situation Room battle simulator.


I wonder if they can gain levels by fighting mock battles.


PClips wrote: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6011549&postcount=5 Higher levels cost more, on a kind of exponential scale that may vary by a large number of factors including the type of unit leveling, the type and number and levels of units croaked, and other activities involving the leveling unit's special abilities that may not even constitute combat.


I'd say leveling from studying like this lies in the realm of "possible, but not as efficient as actually fighting or leading troops".
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby The DM » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:31 pm

It may, however, be efficient up to a point. Popping or promoting a warlord is expensive, and it may be prudent and efficient to train them in simulation up to a point, then send them out to gain applied experience. A low-level warlord could get croaked pretty easily, after all, whereas even a mid-level warlord would be somewhat formidable. If all Gobwin Knob warlords 'debuted' at a level higher than 1 (let's say an arbitrary level 5), then the average level for active Gobwin Knob warlords would be impressive right from the start. And having your least experienced field warlord at that sort of level...it would significantly boost the effectiveness of all of Gobwin Knob's forces.

Remember when we learned from Wanda that Erfworlders do not experience childhood? Parson may have just invented the precursors to Erfworld's first school.

Also, it's interesting to note that as higher math is exclusive to Mathamancers, it appears that the laws of Erfworld metaphysics are purging proprietary knowledge from Parson. I mean honestly, what college-educated, smart nerd doesn't know at least basic trig? Parson can't even remember exactly what it is. Just like Jack can't remember how to manage the stuff he did while linked...but remembers that he did.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Yosarian » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:34 pm

raphfrk wrote:
Yosarian wrote:They might pop them, or the Tool might go back to his habit of promoting them up from the ranks. Either way...I'm imagining a new wave of warlords, 3 or 4 of them, all being trained by Parson on tactics and strategy in their new Situation Room battle simulator.


I wonder if they can gain levels by fighting mock battles.


No, I don't think so. Earlier we were told that warlords don't even get experience from being sent into battles and then retreating. It sounded like you only get experience from fighting in an actual battle and winning it.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby spriteless » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:39 pm

"What's the cure for curiosity?"

"Getting croaked."

Did Jack just comment on the mental capabilities of the decrypted? :o
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Justyn » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:16 pm

The DM wrote:Also, it's interesting to note that as higher math is exclusive to Mathamancers, it appears that the laws of Erfworld metaphysics are purging proprietary knowledge from Parson. I mean honestly, what college-educated, smart nerd doesn't know at least basic trig? Parson can't even remember exactly what it is. Just like Jack can't remember how to manage the stuff he did while linked...but remembers that he did.


First: Parson is a college dropout, or at least was still in college when he was summoned to Erfworld. Second, not all nerds are math nerds, I for one am more interested in pop-culture and geology than math. Third, I think that the trigonometry is a "Use it or lose it" situation rather than a "Erfworld is magically taking knowledge from Parson" situation; There are things that I could do in high school that I doubt I can do anymore as well.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby BarGamer » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:01 pm

Calemyr wrote:or will he pull a Wulfenbach...

You, sir, deserve a cookie for that cross-comic reference. Bravo!

spriteless wrote:"What's the cure for curiosity?"
"Getting croaked."
Did Jack just comment on the mental capabilities of the decrypted? :o

PClips wrote: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6011549&postcount=5 Higher levels cost more, on a kind of exponential scale that may vary by a large number of factors including the type of unit leveling, the type and number and levels of units croaked, and other activities involving the leveling unit's special abilities that may not even constitute combat.


THERE'S the balancing factor for the ArkenPliers! Having to forcibly "change their minds" through some aspect of Loyalty to the wielder of the ArkenPliers, Decrypted can no longer think creatively or think in ways contrary to the wielder's beliefs, do anything other than serve the wielder, or level up! This is balanced (first of all by the need for someone to have been croaked first,) by their lack of upkeep! It makes so much sense now!
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:24 pm

BarGamer wrote:THERE'S the balancing factor for the ArkenPliers! Having to forcibly "change their minds" through some aspect of Loyalty to the wielder of the ArkenPliers, Decrypted can no longer think creatively or think in ways contrary to the wielder's beliefs, do anything other than serve the wielder, or level up!


First off, we've got no indication that they can't think creatively, since we don't have any evidence that they were thinking creatively prior to being croaked.
Second, we know uncroaked can level, and decrypted appear to be a higher form of uncroaked, so while there is no hard evidence either way, there's circumstantial evidence to lean towards the probability that decrypted probably can level.
Third, why do the ArkenPliers have to be balanced? They're an artifact. There are plenty of examples of items in games that are just broken once you get them.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby BarGamer » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:35 pm

My nearly-insane enthusiasm for rampant speculation laughs in the face of your puny logic and reason.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Unclever title » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:12 am

The foolamancer is quickly becoming my favorite character.

While I doubt that Jack's riddles have direct clear cut answers (at least not all of the time) my suspicion in Jack's remark about the importance of triangles probably refers to the current power setup in Gobwin Knob, what with Wanda directly responsible for the vast majority of the Army and Stanley gathering Dwagons and Parson's intelligence and constant learning of Erfworld that we will see three potential rulers of Gobwin Knob or the possibility of splitting into two or three sides even.

It's a delicate balance act here especially with all of the natural thinkamancy, and it reminds me a lot of the 1st and 2nd Triumverates (closer to the second, Stanley's already dictator for life) in Ancient Rome shortly before it became an Empire (officially) but in this case there's no pact and no need for secrecy (except from Stanley).//

Kinda ties in with names and fools too.


On the note of the decrypted leveling, truth be told we don't even know for sure (unless someone can point it out for me somewhere) that the uncroaked can level. While Stanley makes the point that if the uncroaked warlords are pulled out of battle before victory it counts as a loss and the uncroaked warlords will not level Rob has made it clear to us that an Erfworlder doesn't know what his "experience points" are or when he will next level up, he knows that if he wins enough battles he will eventually level and that's about it. Considering Stanley's mostly one-sided view to combat strategy it may have just been that he never considered that they couldn't level or even then to change his strategy as he was used to doing it this way with those same warlords since the time they were alive and well.

I'm willing to guess that uncroaked and decrypted units can level as that is the impression given in Stanley's response to Parson's strategy in the battle prior to the donut of doom but I think the more important implication is Stanley's (perhaps even the average Erfling Overlord's) limited creativity in planning battle strategies.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Lightbender » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:22 am

THERE'S the balancing factor for the ArkenPliers! Having to forcibly "change their minds" through some aspect of Loyalty to the wielder of the ArkenPliers, Decrypted can no longer think creatively or think in ways contrary to the wielder's beliefs, do anything other than serve the wielder, or level up! This is balanced (first of all by the need for someone to have been croaked first,) by their lack of upkeep! It makes so much sense now!


Right after being decrypted, Ansom speaks with Parson about how his views are now changed and has an involved discussion about how he has recognized the truth of Parson's words. This shows the ability to think on at least some level of creativity (he's able to accept that he has changed and adapt to his new situation). Even if this is a forced result by the Arkenpliers, it is still creative on some level.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Dark Arbiter » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:25 am

As a quick comment about the whole "linking" subject, is it unrealistic to guess that a two-way link between Sizemore and Maggie might allow for our friendly neighborhood Dirtamancer to suddenly move crap (pun intended) at distance?
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby cloudbreaker » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:28 am

I don't think Jack was being so literal with his croaking comment, but even if he was, then:

croak = lose curiosity

uncroak = unlose curiosity
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Frogpop » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:34 am

Gez wrote:
cloudbreaker wrote:You bring up a good point. There have been other warlords mentioned that were in GK since the explosion (Parson said he would sometimes walk with them on his rounds). Knowing this, I would expect not only for Parson to teach them a thing or two, but also for Parson to use those other warlords as consultants. Maybe for a "how would you react to this new scenario I cooked up" resource, if for nothing else.

You mean, he's going to be a game master...

I wonder if Parson the game master could come up with a scenario to teach all his warlord disciples that "the only winning move is not to play", thereby coming into his own as erfworld's ultimate hippiemancer.
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