Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lamech » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:31 pm

On a side note I think the biggest loss, if it becomes public knowledge, for the RCC was Ossomer turning. Yeah, decrypted can turn. They are "only" unnaturally loyal. Congrats! That's a weakness in the same way vampires can be killed by a wooden stake through the heart. But you know what else? They still have free will. The pliers are a combination resurrection/thinkamancy spell. The first part is creepy, but the second part is fairly well accepted. The decrypted are people, not monsters. Which means Sammy when he gets raised? Will be all too precious to Haggar's King.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lilwik » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:52 pm

MadZuri wrote:The wiki is clearly wrong.
I would say that the wiki is clearly jumping to conclusions that aren't necessarily reliable. It should be noted in the wiki somehow that the timeline isn't clear, meaning that the timeline on that page needs to be branching, with one branch having Epilogues 12-17 being 76 AW and the other branch having Epilogues 12-17 being 75 AW. I'm not sure the best way to do that.

I'd say that both possibilities are plausible. We've seen no hard evidence that the Epilogues aren't in chronological order. The sun was clearly setting in Epilogue 11, and then it becomes afternoon for Epilogue 12 instead of night, meaning that time either advanced deep into the next day or jumped backward several hours. Personally I prefer to think that the Epilogues are out-of-order because otherwise it seems that an entire morning passed with nothing happening, and Parson used up his entire turn chatting with the Great Minds instead of actually doing things like getting Stanley to Spacerock.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby ftl » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:40 pm

Time is relative between hexes, too. Just because the sun is setting in one hex doesn't mean that's where it is in another. Epilogue 11 is way out wherever Jetstone's troops are, whereas the rest of the action is in the MK.

Does it make sense to treat this as all the continuation of that same long turn? How about this for a timeline:

1) Parson wins the battle for Spacerock on Jetstone's turn. In the MK, it's afternoon. He hangs out in the MK, doing stuff - Epilogues 1 through 10.
2) Meanwhile, Jetstone is moving their forces away to somewhere. The sun is setting for them. We get epilogue 11 as the sun is getting near the horizon in the hex Lilith is in.
3) ...back in the MK, the sun is still high in the sky, because why not? We know the sun can be in different places in different hexes. Parson has a long chat with the thinkamancers, and over the course of epilogues 12-16, the sun sets and it becomes night.

In that case both the epilogues are in order, AND parson hasn't used up a whole turn chatting with the great minds; we're just experiencing residual weirdness from time being different between hexes, and this is all the end of that same turn.

Would that make sense as a timeline? Or does it contradict something we know about time or about the story?
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Dinkum » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:56 pm

0beron wrote:Or put more precisely, what can a full Rhyme-o-mancer do that another caster or even Warlord couldn't?


Jojo's scroll contained "words on the parchment, a poetic stanza.", whereas other times units are seen reading from scrolls they are using single words and not full sentences. Another example might be the Summon Perfect Warlord spell, which Wanda stated had a 'trigger word' after casting the spell, but we never get to see the spell text so that is still an unknown form.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lilwik » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:08 pm

ftl wrote:Would that make sense as a timeline? Or does it contradict something we know about time or about the story?
I think it's a neat theory for the way that it manages to get the Epilogues to be in chronological order, and I think it fits with what little we know about time. Time is supposed to go faster for moving units, so that a scout can do hours of scouting in minutes, or something similar since we don't know the exact amount that time speeds up. That means that while a short amount of time passes for stationary Parson in the Magic Kingdom, hours could have passed for Jetstone because they are moving. Ignoring range issues, Isaac's Lookamancy might actually have allowed him to see Epilogue 11 complete with sunset while the Magic Kingdom was still somewhere in the afternoon.

Considering that, we probably shouldn't even think of the sunset as an indication of when Epilogue 11 happened. The only thing that it indicates is that Jetstone has used up all that was left of their turn moving toward Jetstone (the city) and now they have to stop for the night because their turn is over, which is something that could happen any time that Jetstone chose to do that. That's just natural strangeness of living in a turn-based world.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:35 pm

Lipkin wrote:Songs seem like Date-a-mancy to me. Not all music has words or rhymes, after all.
Except for the fact that Rhyme-o-mancy falls under Stageamancy, unifying all the school's disciplines under the theme of performance.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lipkin » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:48 pm

0beron wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Songs seem like Date-a-mancy to me. Not all music has words or rhymes, after all.
Except for the fact that Rhyme-o-mancy falls under Stageamancy, unifying all the school's disciplines under the theme of performance.

But we already have a connection between music and hippymancy. Songs seem connected to emotion, which is Hippymancy.

If it were Rhythmancy instead of Rhyme-o-mancy, I wouldn't be arguing. And I could still be wrong, obviously.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby LordAcme » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:55 pm

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:And I agree that nobody in the RCC2 probably knows that GK has so few units and so many schmuckers sitting in Spacerock. On top of that, Haggar is probably in better shape to take Spacerock without making its capital vulnerable to Jetstone than vice versa - not to mention that Trammenis might not feel comfortable attacking Haggar to grab the GK treasury if Haggar showed them "good will" by giving back Spacerock - but Haggar seems to have access to the least intelligence. For Jetstone to turn around and confidently re-take Spacerock would probably involve the participation of Trammenis's air group, which would mean that Jetstone's Ruler would be separated from his capital by a few turns, resulting in all of Jetstone's heavy-hitters sitting in Spacerock or in the field while GK's tasty looted treasury sits in the under-defended Jetstone City.


I'd like to decrypt the possibility that Jetstone could counterattack just with natural allies. Tramennis is the diplomat, he has the flight special, and he knows all of the possible nearby allies extremely well (if there are any that is). All he needs is an incentive, perhaps food from the other cities and/or the recaptured Spacerock?

I'd go for it just to get intelligence on the enemy's doings and interfere with their supply lines. In this scenario, it's very possible the allies would discover that Spacerock is weakly defended.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:57 pm

Lipkin wrote:But we already have a connection between music and hippymancy. Songs seem connected to emotion, which is Hippymancy.
Eh...I think emotion is more a Life Element thing in general than Hippiemancy in particular. Find, Predict, Think & Fool have all arguably been shown to touch on emotion in certain ways.
I think the Chillaxe might actually prove this point for us. If making music were within Hippiemancy, would Olive need a special item to do it? She should have been able to cast the spell unassisted.

EDIT:Also consider the fact that Love is an emotion...and nobody in erfworld conclusively agrees on the mancy that governs it, if any.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lipkin » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:03 pm

0beron wrote:
Lipkin wrote:But we already have a connection between music and hippymancy. Songs seem connected to emotion, which is Hippymancy.
Eh...I think emotion is more a Life Element thing in general than Hippiemancy in particular. Find, Predict, Think & Fool have all arguably been shown to touch on emotion in certain ways.
I think the Chillaxe might actually prove this point for us. If making music were within Hippiemancy, would Olive need a special item to do it? She should have been able to cast the spell unassisted.

EDIT:Also consider the fact that Love is an emotion...and nobody in erfworld conclusively agrees on the mancy that governs it, if any.

Let me rephrase. Mood alteration, and making changes through music, are two things commonly associated with hippies. We know Date-a-mancy has to do with relationships, and with the numbers under the surface of same. It's easy for me to see the math of music to fall under the purview of Date-a-mancy.

As for Love, the decrypted are made to love Wanda, so we know it does fall under magic somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:06 pm

Aaah ok yes that's a fair theory I respect and could get behind (I'm such a magic theory nut, so any argument based on the Elements and Axes always gets my attention haha).
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:12 pm

Lipkin wrote:As for Love, the decrypted are made to love Wanda, so we know it does fall under magic somewhere.
Ah but is that Love or simply adoration/infatuation/ect? That's the kind of argument we've seen so far, some casters claim Think because it acts like a Duty, others say Date-a-mancy for obvious reasons, but nobody has agreed on what governs....Wuv...twue wuv.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:25 pm

Lipkin wrote:As for Love, the decrypted are made to love Wanda, so we know it does fall under magic somewhere.
Err.. we've not only seen no evidence of this, but evidence against it. Why do you think they are being made to love her? Wouldn't it make more sense with the evidence we have that their old rulers were ass hats, and so as awful as she is, she's still better than their old masters and religion?
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Tonot » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:41 pm

Finwe wrote:
Tonot wrote:Yep. Imagine a high level Rhyme-o-mancer writing a battle song . . . a Battle Hymn for the Side in fact. It seems reasonable that it would grow in potency the more it was used, like a sympathetic magic does through belief being imbued and then burnished repeatedly. Massive buff for Charisma of the Hymn leader ( everyone is listening intently to him obediently and singing his tune ), and Morale for the singers.


It would probably look something like this.



Yeah, for the Dance-fight capable sides.

I was also thinking something like Rudyard Kipling's writings. Many of his poems are subtle in the extreme, hidden in their language are programming orders for "How to be British". I mean, the straight forward topics of course, are so, but there are also many very subtle reminders about Behaviour Fit for Empire.

Not just him either, it was a normal tool.

The river of death has brimmed his banks
And England’s far, and Honour a name,
But the voice of a schoolboy rallies the ranks:
Play up ! play up ! and play the game !

And while that is a poem that can be chanted, you could read it as a spell to be cast on willing listeners too.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:44 pm

Althernai wrote:Sammy Hagar (the rock musician from Earth, not the Erfworld prince) was part of a group called HSAS. It didn't last very long, but he moved on to other things shortly.

Sammy's body was carried away by the retreating Haggar column, so Sammy-specific foreshadowing doesn't necessarily apply to the other Haggar units lost.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lipkin » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:35 am

Shai_hulud wrote:
Lipkin wrote:As for Love, the decrypted are made to love Wanda, so we know it does fall under magic somewhere.
Err.. we've not only seen no evidence of this, but evidence against it. Why do you think they are being made to love her? Wouldn't it make more sense with the evidence we have that their old rulers were ass hats, and so as awful as she is, she's still better than their old masters and religion?

I swear I remember a text update with a newly decrypted unit talking about how he loved Wanda but could clearly remember hating her.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby ManaCaster » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:15 am

Lipkin wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:
Lipkin wrote:As for Love, the decrypted are made to love Wanda, so we know it does fall under magic somewhere.
Err.. we've not only seen no evidence of this, but evidence against it. Why do you think they are being made to love her? Wouldn't it make more sense with the evidence we have that their old rulers were ass hats, and so as awful as she is, she's still better than their old masters and religion?

I swear I remember a text update with a newly decrypted unit talking about how he loved Wanda but could clearly remember hating her.

That would be here: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/ ... mission_33

And yes, the Arkenpliers very clearly have some sort of Turnamancy/Thinkamancy effect. It is true that the Arkenpliers seem to need something to work with, hence why they didn't work as well with Ossomer. He wasn't as devoted to the Titans as Ansom was. But it's clear that the mental effects are very real. We didn't get to see much of Sylvia's personality pre-decryption, but what we did see didn't even hint at the pyromaniac we know now. Ansom's desire to serve the Titans was magnified and he was made to see that Gobwin Knob somehow fits in their plans. Jack of course, was on the same side as Wanda to begin with, so his changes were smaller, but the fact remains that his rivalry with her has turned into more of a sibling relationship. Duke Antium believed strongly in Jetstone, but was made to see how pointless fighting against the Titans all was after decryption.

If the Decrypted were joining Wanda solely because they always hated their rulers, then why didn't they turn beforehand? We know from Olive's case that it is possible.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lilwik » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:18 am

ManaCaster wrote:And yes, the Arkenpliers very clearly have some sort of Turnamancy/Thinkamancy effect.
There's no doubt that the decrypted aren't exactly the same people that they were before they croaked, but we should keep in mind that sides themselves have Natural Thinkamancy. If the only thing that the pliers did was bring people back to life with their side set to Gobwin Knob, then that ought to have Thinkamancy effects just because of loyalty and duty, with no Thinkamancy from the pliers needed. I agree that the shift in personality is quite dramatic, especially with Ansom, but perhaps that just indicates that when someone is decrypted they retain the loyalty that they had in life, so Ansom became just as loyal to Gobwin Knob as he was to Jetstone.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby ManaCaster » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:41 am

Lilwik wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:And yes, the Arkenpliers very clearly have some sort of Turnamancy/Thinkamancy effect.
There's no doubt that the decrypted aren't exactly the same people that they were before they croaked, but we should keep in mind that sides themselves have Natural Thinkamancy. If the only thing that the pliers did was bring people back to life with their side set to Gobwin Knob, then that ought to have Thinkamancy effects just because of loyalty and duty, with no Thinkamancy from the pliers needed. I agree that the shift in personality is quite dramatic, especially with Ansom, but perhaps that just indicates that when someone is decrypted they retain the loyalty that they had in life, so Ansom became just as loyal to Gobwin Knob as he was to Jetstone.

If it was just natural loyalty to their owning side, then that wouldn't explain where Jack's sudden epiphany came from since he didn't change sides.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby mortissimus » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:00 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Althernai wrote:Sammy Hagar (the rock musician from Earth, not the Erfworld prince) was part of a group called HSAS. It didn't last very long, but he moved on to other things shortly.

Sammy's body was carried away by the retreating Haggar column, so Sammy-specific foreshadowing doesn't necessarily apply to the other Haggar units lost.


Hm, Haggar must know that GK can decrypt. So either they intend to destroy the body, or there is an opening for a GK and Haggar alliance, with decrypting Sammy and ordering him to turn to Haggar as part of the deal.
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