Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lipkin » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:20 am

[quote="ManaCaster"][/quote]

Thanks, that was just what I was looking for.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:42 am

Ansom was a religious fanatic who had his entire world view shattered, Antium was already a Scorist heretic, Sylvia's poem as well as her conversation with Ossomer showed she was already a borderline Fatalist with fire themed suicidal tendencies, and Jack had extreme brain damage that seems to have been healed along with his physical body/Sighnamancy. Most everyone else was a religious convert eating up Wanda and Ansom's evangelism after the discovery that Decryption is legit reanimation (and therefore they were murdering their own friends and family who just wanted to talk to them again.) I'm still not seeing any hard evidence that she is straight up mind controlling people. The closest thing we've got is that archon saying she could feel Wanda in her mind like Charlie and we don't know if that was just the archons or not.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby ManaCaster » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Ansom was a religious fanatic who had his entire world view shattered, Antium was already a Scorist heretic, Sylvia's poem as well as her conversation with Ossomer showed she was already a borderline Fatalist with fire themed suicidal tendencies...

Exactly. If a unit was solely devoted to seeing Wanda croaked, with absolutely no personality features that would make said unit amenable to serving her, it wouldn't fall under her control. At best, it would want to croak her slightly less. Decryption seems to work more like an especially powerful variation of a suggestion spell, subtly altering and significantly magnifying whatever personality traits the unit already has that would make said person loyal to her.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby ftl » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:28 pm

I think it's reasonable to think of decryption in the same words that the characters in-comic use.

Some of the decrypted describe themselves as being "popped again". So I think it makes sense to guess that the reason that units who pop are loyal to the side that popped them is similar to the reason that the decrypted are loyal to Wanda.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:33 pm

ManaCaster wrote:Decryption seems to work more like an especially powerful variation of a suggestion spell,
Based on... what?
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby ManaCaster » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:20 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:Decryption seems to work more like an especially powerful variation of a suggestion spell,
Based on... what?

On what we've just been talking about.

You know what? Forget it. You are absolutely right. The decrypted have absolutely no brainwashing whatsoever and join Wanda solely because they hate their rulers. All they needed to join Wanda in the first place was an excuse. People all over Erfworld are just aching to call Wanda mistress. That's why everybody's declaring war on her; They secretly want an excuse to join her side or something but can't bring themselves to confess their love.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:44 pm

I'm glad that a request for in comic evidence resulted in such a mature and helpful response that took my posted statements into account. -.-
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lipkin » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:05 am

Shai_hulud wrote:I'm glad that a request for in comic evidence resulted in such a mature and helpful response that took my posted statements into account. -.-

You were given evidence, and ignored it. Manacaster's second to last post on page 5 of this thread.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Oberon » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:25 am

Lipkin wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:I'm glad that a request for in comic evidence resulted in such a mature and helpful response that took my posted statements into account. -.-

You were given evidence, and ignored it. Manacaster's second to last post on page 5 of this thread.
I think that thing that you keep saying, does not mean what you think it means.

The "evidence" Manacaster provided is not really evidence, it is supposition backed by fact. Don't confuse the two. Supposition backed by fact does not have to be accurate.

Here is some more supposition.

The decrypted are not, as far as I have seen, mind slaves to Wanda. That very concept ignores the turning of Ossomer. The process of decryption does seem to change their world view, and often times this is a radical change. This is quite in line with the terminology "popped again", given that "born again Christians" often espouse world views which are quite contrary to the views which they held prior to their conversion to Christianity.

The first decrypted unit, Ansom, said:
I remember... most things. But I see them all quite differently now."
And he was certain that he still "served the Titan's will", even if he was "misguided" previously.
Just as a "born again Christian" might say that he was a good man previously, but had found the "right path" through his conversion to Christianity.

But even "born again Christians" can backslide, can return to their old ways of though. As did Ossomer.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lipkin » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:34 am

God am I sick of "You're using that word wrong" being used as an argument.

Manacaster posted a link to the text update that shows Ansom saying that he now loves Wanda, after having previously hated her. Ansom loved his father, and was the golden boy of the side. Yet upon being decrypted, Ansom loved Wanda.

The pliers made Ansom love Wanda. Therefore love is connected to magic in some way. That was my argument, I feel it is supported.


As for Wanda mind controlling the decrypted, she doesn't need to. The pliers alter their minds so that they are willing to serve her, and then they follow her because she is their commander and they are forced to follow her orders. They are completely under her control because they are conditioned to want to serve her.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Beeskee » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:18 am

We've seen more than one person in the comic refer to love as "natural thinkamancy" so it seems to be implied that some forms of magic can also cause or change that feeling.

For loyalty, units in Erfworld seem to be popped pre-conditioned towards their side. The pliers appear to change the side that loyalty is towards. Units seem to feel and act like they are newly popped and Wanda is the leader of their new side. They just happen to have potentially inconvenient memories from their past life. For Ossomer, that, and possibly the sudden absence of the pliers and Wanda, was enough to turn back.

The biggest hurdle towards understanding people in this comic is that they sometimes act like people and other times act like AI in a video game. But I guess that makes sense. If I was playing a game like this, and went to check on one of my cities only to find that half the garrison had wandered off to do their own thing, I know I'd be like "wtf" :D
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Oberon » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:53 am

Lipkin wrote:God am I sick of "You're using that word wrong" being used as an argument.

Manacaster posted a link to the text update that shows Ansom saying that he now loves Wanda, after having previously hated her. Ansom loved his father, and was the golden boy of the side. Yet upon being decrypted, Ansom loved Wanda.

The pliers made Ansom love Wanda. Therefore love is connected to magic in some way. That was my argument, I feel it is supported.
And no matter how you may be sick of it, you are still using that word wrong. So suck it!

The 'pliers didn't make Ansom love Wanda. The 'pliers made Ansom think about things differently. Thinking about things differently made him devoted to Wanda, but as we have seen with Ossomer, that's not enough to guarantee absolute loyalty.

The statement that "He loved her" isn't regarding the 'pliers, it's regarding Ansom and his devotion to the cause of the day.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:25 am

We still have no evidence that the pliers actually did anything to his brain. Many religious types in his situation would act similarly.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lamech » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:57 am

Beeskee wrote:The biggest hurdle towards understanding people in this comic is that they sometimes act like people and other times act like AI in a video game. But I guess that makes sense. If I was playing a game like this, and went to check on one of my cities only to find that half the garrison had wandered off to do their own thing, I know I'd be like "wtf" :D

Medieval Total War, the first one. After getting a side on the march to victory... half my nation decides to do its own thing. I was upset.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Tonot » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:38 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:We still have no evidence that the pliers actually did anything to his brain. Many religious types in his situation would act similarly.



That is the truth of the matter, neither one of you has proof, though both of you have conviction. Conviction without proof is call belief.

;)

Anyway, it occurs to me ( and this is me doing the belief thing too, of course, but I prefer to call it rationale lol ) that the pliers-of-compelling-the-dead must uniformly do something to their thought processes. Not one of them pops up and lashes out, none of them scream in horror, none of them run for the horizon, and none of them say "YES ! ! ! I KNEW ALL ALONG I WAS SPECIAL, I CAN NOT DIE HAHAHAHAHAHAHA". :D

As far as we have seen, they all pop up
a) Calm. This must be the pliers' doing, they just all suffered traumatic death as far as they know, wtf would they be calm?.
b) Without aggro or antagonism. To their mind, a second before they were engaged to the death with some opponents, now one of them is standing within reach.
c) Re b) we all accept that the pliers are making their minds over into ones that "know" they are aligned to a new side, their commanders names, own position, etc.

These things are self evident facts, things we have seen always happening to the re-popped, and never not happening. The pliers not only can do specific stuff to the very thoughts of the re-popped, they ALWAYS do the same things.
So we can assume the pliers are ALSO capable of magically making them adore and respect Wanda . . . what, we should accept all the other effects but strain at hypnotism or compulsion?. .And we see that uniformly they DO, after re-popping and not before, seemingly magically adore and respect Wanda.

It seems very likely or even very certain that the pliers compel re-popped people into a compliant, respectful mind-set to the holder. And it seems likely to me, given the varied reaction strengths we have been shown, that the prior mind-set of the re-popped then contributes to how they view the holder. Religious Ansom gets all mystic, pragmatic Ossomer rationalises it, pre-friendly Jack is happily consumed with lovingkindness to her.

And because Ossomer rationalises it, he is not as deep in the effect, his logical mind only is compelled, not his illogical religious feelings, and we all know that logical people talk themselves into and out of things, and religious people believe themselves into and out of things.

If a "real" Titan appears and tells Ansom he is in error, he will turn. Ossomer did it by thinking hard.

So I think on the whole that you are both partly right. ( with the inevitable corollary that I am wholly right ! bwahahaha ) :P
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby ManaCaster » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:20 pm

Oberon wrote:The 'pliers didn't make Ansom love Wanda. The 'pliers made Ansom think about things differently. Thinking about things differently made him devoted to Wanda, but as we have seen with Ossomer, that's not enough to guarantee absolute loyalty.

The statement that "He loved her" isn't regarding the 'pliers, it's regarding Ansom and his devotion to the cause of the day.

Are you arguing that there is no mental influence from the pliers whatsoever (which is what Shai hulud seems to be arguing)? Or are you nitpicking Lipkin's argument? Cause I don't think "love" versus "influencing world view" was really what Lipkin was arguing about.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lipkin » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:18 pm

Oberon wrote:
Lipkin wrote:God am I sick of "You're using that word wrong" being used as an argument.

Manacaster posted a link to the text update that shows Ansom saying that he now loves Wanda, after having previously hated her. Ansom loved his father, and was the golden boy of the side. Yet upon being decrypted, Ansom loved Wanda.

The pliers made Ansom love Wanda. Therefore love is connected to magic in some way. That was my argument, I feel it is supported.
And no matter how you may be sick of it, you are still using that word wrong. So suck it!

The 'pliers didn't make Ansom love Wanda. The 'pliers made Ansom think about things differently. Thinking about things differently made him devoted to Wanda, but as we have seen with Ossomer, that's not enough to guarantee absolute loyalty.

The statement that "He loved her" isn't regarding the 'pliers, it's regarding Ansom and his devotion to the cause of the day.

Circumstantial evidence may not be proof, but it is still evidence. So you can go ahead and eat me. I was never claiming that the posted link supported the claim entirely, but it does point in that direction, and certainly doesn't contradict it, which is what Shai was claiming.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby drachefly » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:33 pm

Well, it clearly did something to his brain. He wasn't thinking the same way afterwards.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:40 pm

Tonot wrote:As far as we have seen, they all pop up
a) Calm. This must be the pliers' doing, they just all suffered traumatic death as far as they know, wtf would they be calm?.
b) Without aggro or antagonism. To their mind, a second before they were engaged to the death with some opponents, now one of them is standing within reach.
Incorrect. See IPTSF page 20, here:
Delphie's voice was high and quavering. "Lord, you should break with Frenemy. Now."

"Done!" shouted Father from just behind Wanda's shoulder. The flyers from the nearer group ceased to look like allies, and her heart pumped as it always did at first sight of enemy units.
As you can see, units have an auto engagement sense that earthlings lack. They wouldn't register a unit on the same side as enemy automatically just because they were fighting them earlier. Since your conclusion flows from that false assumption, your conclusion is not necessarily true. =/


Lipkin wrote:-which is what Shai was claiming.

No, I was saying you were claiming random speculation as true facts about the setting. Totally different. It's completely possible they are being mind controlled. I was saying that none of the people mentioned were good examples because they were the types that would have followed her even without mind control. What would be needed is the decryption of someone who already believes decryption is true resurrection and that she's not mind controlling people, but still hates her and her religion anyway, as well as one who is neutral as a control. Those people are who needs to be reanimated to determine the Pliers functionality under controlled conditions. Not a reformed racist born again christian or a suicidal possible rape victim, who both already worship the Pliers. Those are awful examples.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Tonot » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:05 pm

As far as I can work out, all you did there was show me that the pliers did alter their mind-set. Which was what I was suspecting in my post. :|

OK, the pliers did it by turning them. In this instance turning them while they were dead so it's not a lot like any kind of turning other than Croakamancy turning. However, as far as we have seen, no other kind of Croakamancy as practiced by casters, results in a living, thinking, opinionated Erfworlder.

So the Pliers-of-compelling-the-dead IN FACT alter peoples minds-sets, bring them back from the dead, AND turn them. Normal Croakamancy gives you a zombie-robot where you had a corpse, normal Turnamancy gives you a compliant-to-varying-degrees-of-durability-and-loyalty thinking unit-person where you had an enemy. Plier magic does it all at once.

?. Right?.
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