Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:34 pm

No, but I give up. -.-
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lilwik » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:21 am

Tonot wrote:So the Pliers-of-compelling-the-dead IN FACT alter peoples minds-sets, bring them back from the dead, AND turn them. Normal Croakamancy gives you a zombie-robot where you had a corpse, normal Turnamancy gives you a compliant-to-varying-degrees-of-durability-and-loyalty thinking unit-person where you had an enemy. Plier magic does it all at once. ?. Right?.
That all seems about right, but I doubt that what the pliers do is anything that a Turnamancer would recognize as Turnamancy. Turning a unit by bringing it back from the dead is probably a categorically different thing from any other kind of turning, and then there's Book 2, Page 29 for whatever that might tell us about decryption and Turnamancy.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Tonot » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:08 am

Lilwik wrote:
Tonot wrote:So the Pliers-of-compelling-the-dead IN FACT alter peoples minds-sets, bring them back from the dead, AND turn them. Normal Croakamancy gives you a zombie-robot where you had a corpse, normal Turnamancy gives you a compliant-to-varying-degrees-of-durability-and-loyalty thinking unit-person where you had an enemy. Plier magic does it all at once. ?. Right?.
That all seems about right, but I doubt that what the pliers do is anything that a Turnamancer would recognize as Turnamancy. Turning a unit by bringing it back from the dead is probably a categorically different thing from any other kind of turning, and then there's Book 2, Page 29 for whatever that might tell us about decryption and Turnamancy.



I had forgotten that, that is interesting as all getout, isn't it. Not only can't she turn him, she specifically says "That's (pause while she searches for the proper term)really weird" and she is answering her warlord too, so she is being quite specific and using weird deliberately.

And as hers is Thinkamancy, we can pretty much guess it is the inside of his skull that is "different", which is what she will be looking at. Brainwashed, do you think?. Some kind of Groupthink maybe?. A cult mindscape maybe?.

It is a neat page. Love the attitudes it reveals. "Hello again brother". Is that . . . a joke, from "Stick-up-his-bum" ?. lol.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lipkin » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:57 am

Did you mean "Hers is Turnamancy?"
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby BakaGrappler » Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:58 am

I think people are forgetting something VERY important about Ansom's Decryption. He was no longer considering himself royalty. I remember positing that Nobility traits include a Natural Thinkamancy that drives them to believe bloodlines are more important to ruling than ability. Bigotry against non-Nobles if you will. And just like how Jack was released from his contract on death, Ansom was released from his Natural Thinkamancy upon death. Yet as people have posted, Ansom is a person who is so convinced he is in the right, that he assumed that after being beaten and brought to a new side he was still in the right, and before he wasn't wrong, but just misguided. Hence the Crusade.

Ossomer was never as rabid as Ansom. Proof? When Ossomer's beliefs were called into question at the bridge by Ansom, he didn't shout obscenely self-centered propaganda and smash his fist into the nearest available sturdy surface. So Ossomer was not as rabid about the Toolism after turning, but still held his beliefs of right conduct which was "betrayed" by the sneaking and wholly necessary actions Parson undertook.

We've also seen that Ansom is attracted to pretty women until given a reason not to be, Artemis is a prime example of that. And my own positing is that the Arkentools possess a Natural Thinkamancy of giving a slight euphoria to those under their sway. It's why the Archon captured by Haggar begged to head Charlie's voice once more in her head before death, because it is a euphoria inducing action, like sex or drugs, and we all know how easily people can get addicted to those. And that seems to be on top of the Natural Thinkamancy and Loyalty of serving a side. The Decrypted also feel a slight euphoria from the 'Pliers, as Artemis' decryption showed.

But Ace's Decryption showed that being Decrypted was not necessarily an act that automatically makes one love Wanda and her tool, because he was far more preoccupied with Parson, and I dare say his loyalty lies more with the Chief Warlord than with the Chief Croakamancer of GK. But he's still loyal to GK, his new side. He even said, "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it" when talking about Cubbins, his best friend, instead of pining to return to his little buddy. But we have to remember that Ace is a Caster, as is Jack, who's reaction was to think of Wanda not as a master, but as a sister that is not bound by blood. So we can also posit that being a Caster means a different decryption process.

So in closing, we know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR CERTAIN!!!

Different people have different reactions to Decryption, but their reactions seem to be dependent on their personalities and their station before the process. The rank and file soldiers fall in like with the views of their Warlords, and the Warlords seem to follow the views of the Chief Warlord they serve for lack of a better understanding of their situation, in combination of the slight euphoria the 'pliers cause giving them more conviction that such a path and upraising of the item that brought them back from the dead miraculously, and natural Duty kicking in provided the impetus of making a Holy Crusade. And Unaroyal certain threw a wet blanket on the thoughts that the Toolism religion is absolutely right, didn't it?

So Toolism is basically all Ansom's fault. Because he's a self-centered shmuck.

So why does he love Wanda? She's pretty. She's composed, powerful, and elegant, which all seem to be things that attract Ansom based on Artemis and the natural Royal blood in Jillian. She also hold pliers that cause euphoria, which is somewhat close to feeling a rush of lust(?) and most of all the fact that Wanda does not have any need for Ansom whatsoever. He said it himself. And so, Ansom has met the SECOND woman in his life that is not falling all over herself to get closer to him, Jillian being the first. It seems Ansom likes the Hard To Get ones. So Ansom does have a pattern




This post may or may not make much sense. I am very sleep deprived at this moment.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Tonot » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:08 pm

BakaGrappler wrote:So in closing, we know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR CERTAIN!!!


Yep. That is how we know it is true knowing!. :lol:




BakaGrappler wrote:
This post may or may not make much sense. I am very sleep deprived at this moment.


Made sense to me, but then I know nothing. hahaha.

I liked your post, it certainly had the flavour of many of my own thoughts on the topic.

It is so interesting, that it seems that a good way to write an interesting and absorbing story, is to not write all of the story! If he had explicated all of these things right down to the last mental nut and emotional bolt, we wouldn't had all this fun arguing and thinking about it, eh?.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Arky » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:16 am

Lipkin wrote:Best plan would be for Caesar as CW of TV to send a force out into the field to meet with Faq on it's raids. When the two forces meet, Caesar offs Don, becoming Ruler. He promotes the highest level warlord in the force to Chief, breaks alliance, and surprise attacks Faq.


This seems like a good plan.

If that is the way things went down, I expect it would be because GK would offer Caesar their support in exchange for the return of Ansom. During the fight, Ansom would probably end up having a chance to escape before being told that this was a rescue mission. Instead of escaping, he would see Jillian about to be croaked, and save her, turning Barbarian in the progress. He'll still believe in Toolism as the titanic mandate, but he'll say damn it all in favor of Jillian.


Why would Jillian even consider negotiating to give Ansom over to Transylvito? Also, for this to work it has to be Don King calling the meeting and he's really not going to say "bring Ansom". Going to all that trouble just for a shot at getting Ansom back is also thinking too small. If you're going to get one shot at ambushing FAQ-Queen Jillian, you aim to capture Jillian (and then Ansom being in her dungeon is no longer a problem). I can see them doing this. Especially since Caesar dislikes Jillian and would be more into this plan than trying to free Ansom.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby ftl » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:41 am

Idunno, I just don't see TV going to war with FAQ being a good idea for them in any circumstances.

They don't need more enemies. Carpool and Metroland are enough. FAQ is one of the few allies they have with a strong army (which they mostly funded!) - it would be suicidal to antagonize Jillian as well!

I could see Caesar withdrawing from the RCC and offering to ally with GK. But not if the conditions are to start a different fight instead. Even if it's a fight with someone he dislikes.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lilwik » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:50 am

ftl wrote:They don't need more enemies. Carpool and Metroland are enough. FAQ is one of the few allies they have with a strong army (which they mostly funded!) - it would be suicidal to antagonize Jillian as well!
What you're describing is actually a great reason why Transylvito should want to ally with GK against Faq. Since Transylvito is so short on powerful allies, a move that exchanges one of their allies for a more powerful ally has got to be seriously tempting. You make it sound like betraying Faq would increase the number of Transylvito's enemies, but it doesn't count as having more enemies if they turn just as many enemies into allies in the process.

Even so, I doubt it would ever happen. Transylvito has been fighting against Stanley far too long to stop now.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lipkin » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:51 am

Arky wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Best plan would be for Caesar as CW of TV to send a force out into the field to meet with Faq on it's raids. When the two forces meet, Caesar offs Don, becoming Ruler. He promotes the highest level warlord in the force to Chief, breaks alliance, and surprise attacks Faq.


This seems like a good plan.

If that is the way things went down, I expect it would be because GK would offer Caesar their support in exchange for the return of Ansom. During the fight, Ansom would probably end up having a chance to escape before being told that this was a rescue mission. Instead of escaping, he would see Jillian about to be croaked, and save her, turning Barbarian in the progress. He'll still believe in Toolism as the titanic mandate, but he'll say damn it all in favor of Jillian.


Why would Jillian even consider negotiating to give Ansom over to Transylvito? Also, for this to work it has to be Don King calling the meeting and he's really not going to say "bring Ansom". Going to all that trouble just for a shot at getting Ansom back is also thinking too small. If you're going to get one shot at ambushing FAQ-Queen Jillian, you aim to capture Jillian (and then Ansom being in her dungeon is no longer a problem). I can see them doing this. Especially since Caesar dislikes Jillian and would be more into this plan than trying to free Ansom.

You misunderstand. GK arranges to support Caesar's coup, on the terms that upon breaking alliance, Caesar retrieves Ansom and returns him. There was never going to be negotiating with Jillian. At the moment, Jillian is still in the field attacking targets of opportunity on her way back to Faq. My thought was that Caesar and his force could join her before she made it back home with her prisoner. But since Caesar is drunk at TV's capital, this seems rather unlikely.

But more to the point, Caesar can order the troops about as he pleases without Don's say so. This is why Don's position is so perilous. Caesar's orders are supreme save for a direct order from Don contradicting them. Caesar can make sure that Don is alone when Caesar makes his moves, and can also place his forces in the best position possible for when they break alliance.

Also, capturing Jillian is dumb. Croaking her ends the side. With no side, Faq turns neutral. It's unlikely that Ansom would be able to capture the city on his own, but he'd count as a hostile unit, so the city wouldn't freeze. He'd be able to flee, and contact Maggie for a pick-up.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:58 pm

The problem with this plan being of course that GK's chief caster is in love with the queen of Faq, and she has the ear of Stanley. So any attempt by Caeser to claim Faq's cities by croaking Jillian like he wants would only antagonize the side he wants to ally with. He is sort of in a position where he is likely going to shoot himself in the foot and end up with no allies at all.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby 0beron » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:04 pm

As far as we can tell, Transylvito is the oldest continuous side besides Charlie. I have a feeling they're gonna survive somehow. Maybe it's the location/design of their capital, their smart financing, or the composition of their forces/unit types, but something about the side has let them last though a lot of yellow dwagon amunnition hitting the fan :p
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby ftl » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:05 pm

Lilwik wrote:
ftl wrote:They don't need more enemies. Carpool and Metroland are enough. FAQ is one of the few allies they have with a strong army (which they mostly funded!) - it would be suicidal to antagonize Jillian as well!
What you're describing is actually a great reason why Transylvito should want to ally with GK against Faq. Since Transylvito is so short on powerful allies, a move that exchanges one of their allies for a more powerful ally has got to be seriously tempting. You make it sound like betraying Faq would increase the number of Transylvito's enemies, but it doesn't count as having more enemies if they turn just as many enemies into allies in the process.



But does GK have the sort of leverage to make Transylvito do that? Betray a nearby, powerful ally with an airforce?

GK and Transylvito would both benefit from a non-aggression pact - GK wants to focus on fighting Charlie, Transylvito wants to focus on fighting Metroland and Carpool.

But GK doesn't really have the forces to spare to promise large armies to Transylvito to help them fight. So they don't have much of a carrot to entice Transylvito to betray FAQ. They could try to use a stick - betray FAQ or we crush you - but that would sound hollow. For one, as Caesar said, you can't draw blood from a stone - he can very legitimately respond with "no, if we betray our only powerful ally we're screwed, if you want to destroy us you'll have to do it with your own hand rather than making us self-destruct." And, of course, GK doesn't *actually* want to spend time and money on a campaign to destroy Transylvito. So if they threatened that, it would be a bluff. And Transylvito would see that, thinking "if they could win a war against us, they could win a war against FAQ, and wouldn't need us to do their dirty work."

From the point of view of TV, why would they accept an offer to betray an ally to get an ally... when they could just get GK as an ally without losing a current one? Caesar doesn't want to fight GK, GK doesn't want to fight TV, it's reasonable for both just agree to a non-aggression pact with no further conditions.

Parson as a good negotiator might extract other concessions and drive a hard bargain. But I think that would be a diplomatic win for GK at Transylvito's expense, and TV should try to avoid that.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby drachefly » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:33 pm

They could come closer than that. GK could send them some $. Not saying it'll happen, but beyond a simple nonaggression pact would make sense for both sides.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:25 pm

drachefly wrote:They could come closer than that. GK could send them some $. Not saying it'll happen, but beyond a simple nonaggression pact would make sense for both sides.

Exchanging cash especially makes sense if TV (Ben) can help GK evacuate its treasury from Spacerock via gemification. But I don't see why GK would be motivated to strain the alliance by aggressing against Faq.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:26 pm

There isn't much reason for fighting between GK and Faq though either. Jillian already tried to betray the coalition once (and Wanda knows this), and doesn't seem to have a clear motivation anymore for hating Stanley (Wanda isn't his mind slave), so other than the Ansom issue and her smashing towns and decrypted along the border (mostly to be bitchy and spiteful to Wanda) there isn't any reason why joining both TV and Faq would cause a strained relation between the three. It's JS (because of Charlie) and Caeser that have a problem.
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Lilwik » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:09 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Jillian already tried to betray the coalition once (and Wanda knows this), and doesn't seem to have a clear motivation anymore for hating Stanley (Wanda isn't his mind slave)
Are you saying that Jillian knows it was Wanda and not Stanley who killed Banhammer and destroyed Faq? Or are you suggesting that Jillian should be told as part of a cease-fire negotiation?
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Re: Epilogue18 - A Poem About a King

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:59 pm

I suppose it depends on what she thinks about what Jack told her about Marie's prediction.

Also, when I said she doesn't have a reason to fight Stanley, I meant logical reasons. She's like some kind of fantasy Log Cabin Republican.
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