Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

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Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby balder » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:03 am

New One is up.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby ThisIsNotDan » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:11 am

Wow, I hadn't considered that Jillian didn't even know about the outcome of the battle for Spacerock yet. She can't even imagine the chewing-out she'll get until she at least wraps her mind around that. She's got a long way to go to win over Ansom, too.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Kaed » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:27 am

I think Jillian can consider her alliance cancelled and Don as no longer a friend.
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Biostar » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:50 am

Oh I can't wait to see her face when she finds out. She pretty much burned every bridge now.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby wih » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:11 am

I don't see why anyone would break alliance with her, there's no benefit in doing so.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Kaed » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:24 am

wih wrote:I don't see why anyone would break alliance with her, there's no benefit in doing so.


She abandoned a crucial battle to grab her ex-boyfriend and refused to fight because it might hurt her ex-girlfriend. Now, Slately is dead, which means Jetstone probably hates her, because the new king has no brothers left and no father, and Don lost his best friend, all of his warlords respect...

Tell me what benefit there is in funnelling more money into this unreliable broad?

They don't necessarily have to attack her, but they sure as hell won't stay allied anymore, I think.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby No one in particular » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:00 am

Kaed wrote:
wih wrote:I don't see why anyone would break alliance with her, there's no benefit in doing so.


She abandoned a crucial battle to grab her ex-boyfriend and refused to fight because it might hurt her ex-girlfriend. Now, Slately is dead, which means Jetstone probably hates her, because the new king has no brothers left and no father, and Don lost his best friend, all of his warlords respect...

Tell me what benefit there is in funnelling more money into this unreliable broad?

They don't necessarily have to attack her, but they sure as hell won't stay allied anymore, I think.

  • She abandoned what should've been a rout that Jetstone couldn't lose.
  • She grabbed a son of Jetstone, and it's been proven by Ossomer that Decrypted CAN turn.
  • Jetstone is now led by Tramennis, who is the most ends-oriented Ruler we've seen since Charlie.
      He's unlikely to hold a grudge against a potential ally in the face of impending doom
      He'll be grateful that he still has ONE brother, who might be turned back
  • Jillian's been doing more good than ANYONE ELSE in fighting GK just on the ride back to Faq, by dusting, capturing, and sacking the cities on her ride back. (everyone else has just waited for GK to show up on their doorstop, and then they get stomped)
  • Gobwin Knob is STILL a juggernaut that'll roll over all opposition. They got a bloody nose here, but they're hardly stopped.
I'm not saying Charlie, Tramennis or TV will still prop Faq up financially (as if they even could), but in the face of Parson & Wanda, who STILL AREN'T DEAD, the RCC mk2 will probably pull together to fight even harder. There'll be consequences AFTER they defeat Stanley... in the meantime, they have to focus on defeating Stanley.

Your cohort is fighting a tiger. One of your men flakes out, and a skirmish goes poorly. Do you execute or expel the one who made a mistake, then and there? No! To do so would weaken you further when the threat of the tiger is still present! You reprimand him for his error, and face the tiger. When all are safely back home, then you should punish him.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby wih » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:30 am

Kaed wrote:Tell me what benefit there is in funnelling more money into this unreliable broad?


We have no evidence that alliances require funnelling money.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Lipkin » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:12 am

At the very least, Chrlie's got his hooks too deeply in her to let go of her now. She's his biggest weapon against Parson. Wanda's less than willing to face her, and he can attack Gobwin Knob with her without exposing himself. If he fights Parson with his Archons, any that he loses are a security breach. But what does Jillian know of his secrets? Nothing that isn't covered by a NDA. He's better off funding her to wage war against GK than he is fighting it himself. He'd rather lose smuckers than secrets.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Oberon » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:32 am

No one in particular wrote:
  • Jetstone is now led by Tramennis, who is the most ends-oriented Ruler we've seen since Charlie.
      He's unlikely to hold a grudge against a potential ally in the face of impending doom
      He'll be grateful that he still has ONE brother, who might be turned back

Agreed. Tram has been shown to be rather taken with Jillian, despite his suspected sexual leanings. There's no reason that being tickled by someone's refreshingly direct behavior when you've lived your life either at court, where obfuscation is rampant, or as an ambassador, where obfuscation is likewise rampant, has to have any kind of physical or sexual attraction associated with it, after all. But he didn't seem to have any issues with Jillian and did seem to have enjoyed speaking with her.

He may not be as tickled to find that Ansom is a prisoner of FAQ, despite the fact that this means he still has a living brother, and despite the fact that this may mean that Ansom may potentially someday return to Jetstone. After all, if Jillian does manage to turn him he'll be a FAQ unit. And after all the trouble she went through to collect him, why would she give him up easily?

wih wrote:
Kaed wrote:Tell me what benefit there is in funnelling more money into this unreliable broad?

We have no evidence that alliances require funnelling money.

No, but it's pretty solidly established that both TV and CharlesComm heavily funded the start up of FAQ. That's no reason that they have to continue, and TV might find it impossible to continue due to its financial issue, unless it is somehow contractually obligated and simply must. And I would be surprised to find that to be the case.

But she still hates Stanley, and aside from perhaps Charlie she seems to have the largest, or at least strongest, force around. Those megagwifs seem rather capable, even if we haven't seen them in (much) action. So she is still a potentially useful tool for both CharlesComm and TV.

Lipkin wrote:If he fights Parson with his Archons, any that he loses are a security breach. But what does Jillian know of his secrets? Nothing that isn't covered by a NDA.
I think you're forgetting that Jack was also covered by NDA, and that sending Jillian against GK may well result in her becoming decrypted as well, and voiding that NDA also. Jillian is just as much a potential security breach as any archon: If either are killed and decrypted Charlies' secrets become unprotected.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby multilis » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:41 am

I don't think it wise to break alliance with Jillian unless alliances cost shmuckers to maintain each turn.

Her allies already have war and fighting a two front war is worse unless target can be steamrolled/looted.

So try to point her in right direction and let her work for free helping you. Get stanley to attack her rather than you.

...

The biggest strategic threat is Jillian being reckless in attacking Stanley and giving them a nice big decrypted airforce.... Parson has a bunch of casters... Jack can hide an army, Ace can make ranged weapons for all the warlords, Sizemore can make Golems that can throw ranged rocks, Wanda can decrypt any enemy killed. Jillian has to end turn somewheres each turn she goes raiding, and enemy can strike back whenever she makes a mistake... Even Maggie might join for a big battle.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby MonteCristo » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:19 pm

I doubt Tram would want to break up with Jillian. Tram is one of the more practical and rational of the bunch. Afterall, despite croaking both Ansom and Ossomer, he was still willing to entertain making peace with Gobwinknob. More than likely he will recognize that Jillian made the same exact mistake he made; they underestimated GK. Jillian left thinking that Jetstone's victory was assured, and Tram took the time to parlay with GK with the exact same thought in mind. Tram essentially missed the chance he had been given to make a first, and very devastating strike on the enemy. At any rate, he'll most likely want to maintain the alliance they have with Faq.


Don is a bit more complicated. Unlike Tram, he has NOT been acting all that rational... he's been in a downward spiral ever since Bea croaked. On the one hand, his more emotional side may want him to blame Jillian for Slatey's fall, but on the otherhand, he's dealing with a growing tension in his own kingdom and thus can not afford to be breaking alliances. He may even have emotional reasons to keep Jillian because Bea and Slately's losses are pushing him to try and prove the royal mandate; Heck he may even feel he needs to prove that supporting Faq was not a waste of resources. That more emotional side of him is what makes him hard to predict. Though so far, i think he'll keep it going; he's become determined to prove the royal mandate and thus can't just cut off a royal side, and will keep his sights set on Stanely...


As for Charlie... He's on the breaking point, but he may still find a use for faq. Charlie is desperate about taking out Parson, and thus will want to exploit anything and everything he has. Charlie however may try to be more forceful in dealing with Jillian, in order to get her back in line; like pointing out his support of Vanna. However if he can't use Jillian as a knight, he'll find use for her as a pawn... a sacrificial one even.


So ya, ultimately i don't see any of them breaking away from Faq. Tram will find that every ally is useful in this fight and that he has nothing to gain from cutting ties, Charlie will want every pawn he can get, and Don is pretty much just getting too stubborn to know when he's made a mistake.
Last edited by MonteCristo on Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:25 pm

Jillian also doesn't know that Slatley is dead and that Thinkagrams are being massed jammed. So there might be a reason besides anger that she can't get hat messages and thinkagrams that she isn't aware of yet.

Onto mechanics!
Turnamancers actually don't just slice production time off in set fractions, they actually provide production right from their juice! This might mean that a Turnamancer can't just bost a city and then fly to the next city and boost that one too. Vanna has to sit there and cast over several turns.
Is this the first time we've seen an oil lamp? Light up until now has been from wood fires, illusions, and powerballs. What kind of oil is it? Where do you get more from? Also it doesn't seem to use magic to control it, since she had to turn the knob. Unless she used natural Turnamancy.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby No one in particular » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:29 pm

Oberon wrote:
No one in particular wrote:
  • Jetstone is now led by Tramennis, who is the most ends-oriented Ruler we've seen since Charlie.
      He's unlikely to hold a grudge against a potential ally in the face of impending doom
      He'll be grateful that he still has ONE brother, who might be turned back

[...]

He may not be as tickled to find that Ansom is a prisoner of FAQ, despite the fact that this means he still has a living brother, and despite the fact that this may mean that Ansom may potentially someday return to Jetstone. After all, if Jillian does manage to turn him he'll be a FAQ unit. And after all the trouble she went through to collect him, why would she give him up easily?

Tramennis already knows Ansom was captured by Faq. Jillian & Tramennis had a pleasant little chat about it before Jillian bogged off back for Faq (LIAB 30)

As for it being a Faq unit versus a Jetstone? Who CARES, as long as they don't have to fight anymore? Also, they're on good terms with Faq, they could arrange an exchange or something. Tramennis could do that, he's got the mad diplomacy skills.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby fjolnir » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:51 pm

Honestly in this situation, having one less very high level, supremely competent field commander on the battlefield against you is very much worth it. To get him back on the battlefield for your alliance, regardless of livery would also be amazing if possible.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:21 pm

Especially one that has personal experience with Parson's strategic style, both in a real fight and in simulations. (Such as not trying to parley with him, because he's a Realpolitik munchkin ass hat.)

On Jillian, there is also the issue if they put two and two together and realize she is the only one who has had peaceful encounters with Wanda, and thus is really their only contact point with Gowbin Knob's chief caster.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby MonteCristo » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:35 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Especially one that has personal experience with Parson's strategic style, both in a real fight and in simulations. (Such as not trying to parley with him, because he's a Realpolitik munchkin ass hat.)


Not sure how valuable he would on Parson's thinking; Parson thinks in a totally different way... in a sense, the best Ansom might be able to offer is to point out that Parson is capable of coming up with unpredictable tactics on the fly. The only Parson strategies Ansom really knows about are the one's he's made use of in the field under Wanda's "recommendation".

However, Ansom would be a treasure trove of Information on GK. He will know anything that the chief warlord could know before Space rock fell. He'll know the defenses of every city, the defense of the capital, where they patrol, how much treasury they have, how many units they have, what units they are popping, the strategic landscape of GK's territory, and so forth. Parson will have to do a massive amount of reshuffling to throw off Ansom's knowledge of GK.

On Jillian, there is also the issue if they put two and two together and realize she is the only one who has had peaceful encounters with Wanda, and thus is really their only contact point with Gowbin Knob's chief caster.

True, but that bit of information could also be a problem since it would easily increase distrust in Jillian... afterall, Wanda is not seen as simply the chief caster of GK, but one of the toolists and thus one of the chief players in this fight against the royals. Croaking Wanda is something they want to keep on the table.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:26 pm

MonteCristo wrote:True, but that bit of information could also be a problem since it would easily increase distrust in Jillian... afterall, Wanda is not seen as simply the chief caster of GK, but one of the toolists and thus one of the chief players in this fight against the royals. Croaking Wanda is something they want to keep on the table.
True, but they can't exactly parley with Parson, and Jillian has already told Trem that Wanda isn't really a Toolist per se here. As far as diplomacy goes, using Jillian to talk to Wanda is pretty much their only option. Plus I'm not sure how much distrust it would really create, since up to this point her talks with Wanda have always increased fear that she would betray them. Finding out they have a past friendship might actually make Jill seem less suspicious, since it would mean her motives aren't purely machiavellian like Slately thought.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:03 pm

MonteCristo wrote:Don is a bit more complicated. Unlike Tram, he has NOT been acting all that rational... he's been in a downward spiral ever since Bea croaked. On the one hand, his more emotional side may want him to blame Jillian for Slatey's fall, but on the otherhand, he's dealing with a growing tension in his own kingdom and thus can not afford to be breaking alliances. He may even have emotional reasons to keep Jillian because Bea and Slately's losses are pushing him to try and prove the royal mandate; Heck he may even feel he needs to prove that supporting Faq was not a waste of resources. That more emotional side of him is what makes him hard to predict. Though so far, i think he'll keep it going; he's become determined to prove the royal mandate and thus can't just cut off a royal side, and will keep his sights set on Stanely...

I totally agree that Don is hard to predict and that the following OOTS analogy might apply: Don:Jillian::Redcloak:Xykon

(I guess I'm posting because some might find the Jillian-Xykon comparison amusing. Jillian:Ansom::Xykon:coffee)


I concede that we'd have to see some affection for Jillian from Ansom before the following becomes attractive for Jillian, but I wonder if Trammenis would actively support Ansom being promoted to Heir of Faq. That could be a tasty carrot to dangle in front of Ansom.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby multilis » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:28 pm

"Unlike Tram, he has NOT been acting all that rational... "

In my opinion, insufficient information to tell if rational, and what is good plan for his side.

TV has lots of flying units and warlords and can easier drain prisoners, etc to reduce upkeep. Do those advantages come at a price, eg less hitpoints or less loyalty? The flying part at least is *huge* edge over a normal side. Perhaps they have some disadvantage in cost effective regular army, etc.

Don not getting involved has risk of GK "going for power", taking out everyone else... don't help your allies as they die and you die next especially after that attempt to kill Stanley in book 1.

Don playing royal might be politics to fit in with the royals.
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