Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby ManaCaster » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:50 am

LTDave wrote:SHE'S PREGNANT?!

Did I miss that in a previous comic or info-blurb?

And he can tell she's pregnant just by looking at her?

How does that work?

How does that work with male rulers? Can you still tell?

How is this not the major topic of conversation for this update?

I presume you aren't being serious, but just in case you are, look at these articles:
* Popping
* Heir

* First Intermission 37
* First Intermission 41
* LIAB Text 28

In short, this is hardly new news.
ManaCaster
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:06 am

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby 0beron » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:28 am

Well, the fact that she has an Heir on the way isn't news. However, the question is how Ansom knows. Can he tell by looking at her? Or has the news spread? Based on the fact that he said "I am told...you're expecting." I'd assume he has just heard.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 2945
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby No one in particular » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:01 am

LTDave wrote:SHE'S PREGNANT?!
No, not really. She's set her capital to pop an heir.

LTDave wrote:Did I miss that in a previous comic or info-blurb?
Seems like it! Way back during the First Intermission, Don King insisted that in exchange for financial support from Transylvito, Faq had to pop an heir. He sent Vinny to tell Jillian this. The heir was mentioned again in Intermission 49, when Vanna was brought into speed production up.

LTDave wrote:And he can tell she's pregnant just by looking at her?
No, it sounds like a guard told him, or he overheard some gossip. Ansom says, and I quote with emphasis added, "I am told... you're expecting?"

LTDave wrote:How does that work?
It doesn't! :D

LTDave wrote:How does that work with male rulers? Can you still tell?
Well, if you know, you can tell. If you don't know, you can be told.

LTDave wrote:How is this not the major topic of conversation for this update?
Because it's info we've known since the middle of 2009.
"Are you always so pessimistic?"
"Not at all. I saved it for my last battle."
---
Got questions? Ask Count Downer!
User avatar
No one in particular
 
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:48 pm
Location: Nowhere Atoll

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby nargbop » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:40 pm

0beron wrote:Well, the fact that she has an Heir on the way isn't news. However, the question is how Ansom knows. Can he tell by looking at her? Or has the news spread? Based on the fact that he said "I am told...you're expecting." I'd assume he has just heard.


Ooooh. He wasn't told on-screen, and we know Jillian didn't tell him. Therefore, he was most probably told by a chatty Faq unit (naughty!) or by Charlie, who wanted to drive a wedge between Jillian and Ansom.

The other possibilities for informing Ansom assume that someone sends him a Thinkagram ... Bunny of Transylvito would know, and might take it upon herself to punish the parasite Ruler who caused her side so much pain. Presumably a Lookamancer with Faq's coordinates could discover the production status.

Maybe a Gobwin Knob scout-type unit who hid during the city capture? I'm not certain if that would prevent the city from being taken.
nargbop
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:35 pm

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby 0beron » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:58 pm

nargbop wrote:The other possibilities for informing Ansom assume that someone sends him a Thinkagram ... Bunny of Transylvito would know, and might take it upon herself to punish the parasite Ruler who caused her side so much pain.
Or perhaps more likely, is Charlie actually. Jill definitely threw a wrench in his plan, and he was trying to convince her to rejoin the fight. Maybe by using Ansom to tug on Jillian's emotions, Charlie is hoping to influence her behavior in his favor.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 2945
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby No one in particular » Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:16 pm

nargbop wrote:Maybe a Gobwin Knob scout-type unit who hid during the city capture? I'm not certain if that would prevent the city from being taken.
To the first part, it couldn't be a unit who evaded capture; if you're in a city and it is captured by the enemy, you are captured as well, regardless of where you are. Garrison goes down, shackles go on.

To the second part, it looks like it would be enough, depending on where the unit was. Wrigley, for example, wasn't in the garrison and got manacles. In LIAB 88, it's not just a hidden Cubbins who was keeping GK from claiming the garrison, it was also the Sentry-type units, which included Dolls. A couple of pages earlier, Archer & Sylvia discuss how they can't claim the city until all of Jetstone's troops are cleared out of the garrison.
"Are you always so pessimistic?"
"Not at all. I saved it for my last battle."
---
Got questions? Ask Count Downer!
User avatar
No one in particular
 
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:48 pm
Location: Nowhere Atoll

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby multilis » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:06 pm

Technically a GK unit could have evaded capture, just as Olive did in book 0... by immediately escaping. But Jillian would also have to be pretty bad not to notice with her queen sense. (Or there could be some sort of loophole with non unit magic items that work similar to Olive's plants. )

Technically Jillian could look pregnant... as some sort of signomancy joke on what happens in stupidworld when a queen is about to pop an heir.

We continue to have strong difference between Ossomer and Ansom. Perhaps they were always different or perhaps Ansom being chief warlord for a while helped make him more loyal to GK.
multilis
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:10 pm

multilis wrote:We continue to have strong difference between Ossomer and Ansom. Perhaps they were always different or perhaps Ansom being chief warlord for a while helped make him more loyal to GK.


I would say that him being chief warlord may have indeed been a factor. What ended up getting Ossomer to turn was seeing the way Parson leads. Being Decrypted allowed Ossomer to forget the exact reasons why he did not like Stanely(he even tried to delude himself by saying he did not follow stanely but the titans); seeing GK in action on the battlefield ended up being a hard reminder of what he did not like about him; A gross disregard for rules, protocol, and civility; it reminded him of the REAL reason he valued nobility. Ansom however got to lead GK himself, unless Wanda contradicted him, he was able to lead GK's forces similar to how he led jetstone; much like Ossomer he may have forgotten what exactly he did not like about Stanely, which is how he's able to maintain his loyalty.

Though i do think Ossomer could be a key to getting Ansom to turn. getting Ansom to turn is gonna take more than a few spells, but instead shattering his decrypted world view. The mere knowledge that Ossomer turned could help put some cracks into Ansom's world view. Furtharmore, they could try to chip way at his more honorable side to turn Ansom the way Ossomer turned; Convince him that GK plays dirty. Let him know about the tactics Parson employed; the violation of parley again, and the violation of the magic kingdom; Also pick away at his world view of Wanda by pointing out how controlling she is and how he's allowed himself to be reduced to one of her puppets. Things like that. Something's that they might point out might hit home; Wanda has been more than willing to undermine him and confided more in parson than himself; heck he doesn't much like Stanely despite being a toolist and he seems to be rather agitated with Parson... really a reminder of Stanely's personality along with Parson's less than noble tactics might break him. Actually it makes me wonder if he might think that Parson himself is a threat to the toolist mandate... Wanda and Stanely may be supportive of a war with Charlie but Ansom doesn't know what they think now and might think it goes against the new mandate... he might seek to "save" wanda from Parson

Now Jillian, i don't think she's crafty enough to play with his head like that, but Vinnie might; he knows Ansom well enough to know what he values
User avatar
MonteCristo
YOTD Supporter!
YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:48 pm

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Lilwik » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:40 pm

MonteCristo wrote:Though i do think Ossomer could be a key to getting Ansom to turn. getting Ansom to turn is gonna take more than a few spells, but instead shattering his decrypted world view. The mere knowledge that Ossomer turned could help put some cracks into Ansom's world view.
I really don't think Ansom would be impressed much by Ossomer turning. Ansom would be saddened, but nothing more. Of course I have no real evidence, but Ansom seems to be the unshakable type to me and nothing short of magic (or death, of course) would get him to turn.

What I'm hoping to see is Vanna's magic when she goes to turn Ansom. I wonder if it would be anything like Wanda's attempt to turn Jillian, or perhaps all of that plus more. I expect that nothing Jillian could do would come close to the work of an actual Turnamancer.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1114
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Lamech » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:58 pm

Lilwik wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Though i do think Ossomer could be a key to getting Ansom to turn. getting Ansom to turn is gonna take more than a few spells, but instead shattering his decrypted world view. The mere knowledge that Ossomer turned could help put some cracks into Ansom's world view.
I really don't think Ansom would be impressed much by Ossomer turning. Ansom would be saddened, but nothing more. Of course I have no real evidence, but Ansom seems to be the unshakable type to me and nothing short of magic (or death, of course) would get him to turn.

What I'm hoping to see is Vanna's magic when she goes to turn Ansom. I wonder if it would be anything like Wanda's attempt to turn Jillian, or perhaps all of that plus more. I expect that nothing Jillian could do would come close to the work of an actual Turnamancer.

I for one think that Ossomer turning is going to strengthen his world view if anything. At the very least it gives GK a nice weapon in the ideological war. Can''t say the decrypted are nothing but puppets when, they clearly aren't puppets. It will also make Jillian be blatantly hypocritical with any assault on decryption. "Its mind control!" doesn't work when you engage in it.

Indeed it probably makes GK about the only side on the planet that doesn't run on snuffing out life.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1377
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Jabberwocky » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:46 pm

Okay, a slight tangent here.. But am I the only one a bit creeped out by the 'woman keeps ex-boyfriend in cage and has him brainwashed' vibe here?
Jabberwocky
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:49 pm

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby No one in particular » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:16 pm

Lamech wrote:I for one think that Ossomer turning is going to strengthen his world view if anything. At the very least it gives GK a nice weapon in the ideological war. Can''t say the decrypted are nothing but puppets when, they clearly aren't puppets. It will also make Jillian be blatantly hypocritical with any assault on decryption. "Its mind control!" doesn't work when you engage in it.

Indeed it probably makes GK about the only side on the planet that doesn't run on snuffing out life.

To be fair, Ansom called Jillian out on the hypocrisy back in Progrock.
LIAB Text 43 wrote:Jillian: "No, I told you. I'll turn you."
Ansom: "I see no reason to believe that's possible! But if it is, why would you dispose of the other Decrypted as if they were refuse?"
Jillian: "..."
Ansom: "Well? I want to know. If you believe the Popped Again are merely talking golems of some sort, then I could understand. But to you I am still someone who is...who is alive enough to turn, to be 'saved' by you! So then what of the others?"
"Are you always so pessimistic?"
"Not at all. I saved it for my last battle."
---
Got questions? Ask Count Downer!
User avatar
No one in particular
 
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:48 pm
Location: Nowhere Atoll

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby MonteCristo » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:15 am

Lamech wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Though i do think Ossomer could be a key to getting Ansom to turn. getting Ansom to turn is gonna take more than a few spells, but instead shattering his decrypted world view. The mere knowledge that Ossomer turned could help put some cracks into Ansom's world view.
I really don't think Ansom would be impressed much by Ossomer turning. Ansom would be saddened, but nothing more. Of course I have no real evidence, but Ansom seems to be the unshakable type to me and nothing short of magic (or death, of course) would get him to turn.

What I'm hoping to see is Vanna's magic when she goes to turn Ansom. I wonder if it would be anything like Wanda's attempt to turn Jillian, or perhaps all of that plus more. I expect that nothing Jillian could do would come close to the work of an actual Turnamancer.

I for one think that Ossomer turning is going to strengthen his world view if anything. At the very least it gives GK a nice weapon in the ideological war. Can''t say the decrypted are nothing but puppets when, they clearly aren't puppets. It will also make Jillian be blatantly hypocritical with any assault on decryption. "Its mind control!" doesn't work when you engage in it.

Indeed it probably makes GK about the only side on the planet that doesn't run on snuffing out life.


I'd say ossomer's case suggests the opposite actually. One minute he's a royalist, then after decryption he is instantly a toolist, and then after thinking for himself, without the aid of any kind of magic, he decides to become a royalist again. The fact that Ossomer's world view changed instantly with his decryption suggests the work of magic, the work of brainwashing, where as him turning back to the royals without the aid of ANY magic at all, suggests an act of free will. Heck this is actually like the suggestion spell Jillian was under. She made excuses for herself to keep doing what was in wanda's best interest, it seemed like she was making the choice herself, but the truth was she was under the effect of a spell... by all observations it seemed like she was following her own; this is, until the suggestion spell clashed with her desires; only then did she break free and make her own choice. Frankly, Jillian following and then breaking Wanda's suggestion feels quite similar to Ossomer following and then breaking away from toolism.

Ansom BELIEVES he follows Wanda out of his own will, but how does he know for a fact that he's not really brainwashed? A brainwashed person isn't going to know they have been brainwashed. Decyption may work sorta like the suggestion spell; in order to create loyalty to makes subtle changes to the subjects mind to make them think they choose to follow by their own will. They make the subject fall in love with the Wielder of the Pliers so they will WANT to keep following them; and in Ansom's case, since he has always been a follower of the titans, the pliers have convinced him that THIS is the way of the titans and thus he keeps following. If he were however, to have that belief challenged and believe that this is NOT the will of the titans, then the spell may break... that is what happened to ossomer; like Ansom he believe in following the titans and upon decryption believed he was following the titans will by following the tools; but after seeing GK in action he came to think "this can't possibly be what the titans wanted" and thus the spell over him broke.

Ossomer turning may allow Ansom to start question whether its really his own will that he follows the tools, of its just a spell at work. Cause if its not, then this may NOT be the will of the titans. Keep pushing him and he could break like Ossomer did.


Jabberwocky wrote:Okay, a slight tangent here.. But am I the only one a bit creeped out by the 'woman keeps ex-boyfriend in cage and has him brainwashed' vibe here?

I'd say the suggestion is that she has him cagged up with the intention of UN-brainwashing him
User avatar
MonteCristo
YOTD Supporter!
YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:48 pm

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:25 am

Jabberwocky wrote:Okay, a slight tangent here.. But am I the only one a bit creeped out by the 'woman keeps ex-boyfriend in cage and has him brainwashed' vibe here?

I remember talking by PM with someone about stuff that was supposedly censored out of book 1 back on Giants in the Playground. Makes some of the the things said between Parson and Charlie, Wanda and Jillian, and Parson and Maggie (about the archons) really squicky in a brain washing themed 50 shades of grey way...
So yes, that might be where it's going. Straight to sex slave clock work orange town. Like this or this. Bonus points cuz they include a glass torture box and poisoned apples like Haffaton, which sounded like one of the more awful places ever. The only place that sounds scarier is the Magic Kingdom.
Shai_hulud
Pins Supporter!
Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 663
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby multilis » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:40 pm

MonteCristo wrote:I'd say the suggestion is that she has him cagged up with the intention of UN-brainwashing him

With the aid of a turnomancer's magic...

The higher your rank the more your natural duty makes you loyal to own side...

Your chief warlord can *order* you to do something and you feel compulsion to obey. Ruler can instantly disband you. If Ansom turns who will be his ruler?

Even if Ansom questions Wanda (which is likely as Ossomer already did), he may also at same time question Jillian in same critical way.
multilis
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Arky » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:49 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
Jabberwocky wrote:Okay, a slight tangent here.. But am I the only one a bit creeped out by the 'woman keeps ex-boyfriend in cage and has him brainwashed' vibe here?

I'd say the suggestion is that she has him cagged up with the intention of UN-brainwashing him


That would certainly be Jillian's suggestion.

In light of the latest update to book 0, there is a rather large amount of irony involved in Jillian trying to have someone's mind altered for what she believe to be their own good. Especially in Jillian relying on a caster to do this who is known to link with Charlie...
Arky
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:59 pm

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Mrtyuh » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:45 pm

I think there is a fundamental difference between Ansom and Ossomer. Ansom's first loyalty was always to the Titans, and he saw himself as their instrument. Ossomer's first loyalty was always to nobility, and he saw himself as the embodiment of nobility itself.

Ansom's crusade for royal hegemony was due to the fact that the Titans left royals in charge, so it was their will that royals rule the rest. Between Parson's talking smack about "royalty being obsolete" and Vinny's comments about "there being more to the Titan's will than who they left in charge," Ansom was left in a very susceptible state to be Decrypted. He accepted his defeat and Parson's methods as part of the Titans' plans. He simply wish to continue to serve as an instrument of the New Titanic Mandate. He was originally willing to serve as Parson's lackey. He happily led the Toolist advance. His main complains with Parson where Wanda's dependence on him and the fact that Parson did not believe in the Titans himself. Parson's underhanded tactics bothered him, but not as much.

Ossomer, however, was upset that he wasn't leading the battle and that the tactics being employed weren't noble. Those went against the very core of his identity. He could not see himself as a tool for the Titans to do with as they please. He could not see himself acting in a way that he did not consider noble. It went against the core of his being, so he turned. While Ansom may not approve of ignoble tactics, he'll accept them as fulfilling the Titans' plans. He'll happily be a tool of the Titans, for them to use as they see fit.

Of course, I certainly could be wrong, but that's they distinction I made between the two characters.
मृत्युः सर्वहरश्चाहमुद्भवश्च भविष्यताम् ।
User avatar
Mrtyuh
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:50 pm
Location: The Early Racoon Camp

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:31 am

Plus Wanda singled them both out for special treatment. Ansom was the first decrypted ever, Wanda going so far as to dig through rubble to find his corpse over anyone else. Also he had 2 months to follow her around wishing he could become her champion in place of Parson, thus giving him ample time to develop a desire for sweet necromancer booty. Ossomer on the other hand was only there for a few hours, and was singled out for negative treatment, being forced to call her Commander instead of Mistress in front of the whole group.
Shai_hulud
Pins Supporter!
Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 663
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Finwe » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:50 pm

No one in particular wrote:
nargbop wrote:Maybe a Gobwin Knob scout-type unit who hid during the city capture? I'm not certain if that would prevent the city from being taken.
To the first part, it couldn't be a unit who evaded capture; if you're in a city and it is captured by the enemy, you are captured as well, regardless of where you are. Garrison goes down, shackles go on.

To the second part, it looks like it would be enough, depending on where the unit was. Wrigley, for example, wasn't in the garrison and got manacles. In LIAB 88, it's not just a hidden Cubbins who was keeping GK from claiming the garrison, it was also the Sentry-type units, which included Dolls. A couple of pages earlier, Archer & Sylvia discuss how they can't claim the city until all of Jetstone's troops are cleared out of the garrison.


It certainly seems within the realm of possibility for scouting units to obey different rules in a seige. Perhaps scouting units can not prevent a city from falling, but at the same time also do not become instantly captured when a city is taken.
Finwe
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:14 am

Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby 0beron » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:59 pm

Finwe wrote:It certainly seems within the realm of possibility for scouting units to obey different rules in a seige. Perhaps scouting units can not prevent a city from falling, but at the same time also do not become instantly captured when a city is taken.
It's possible, but requires inventing a different set of rules for them that defies the game's logic.
But more importantly, we don't need to even bother with this when a much simpler expanation is staring us in the face. FAQ is/was part of the RCC II, and the whole business of heirs and lineage and such is kinda their MO to gossip about. Don't forget that her membership was contingent upon said heir being popped, because of Jetstone. Jetstone are the ones who are making Don pop an heir, and the reason he by extension is requiring Jillian to pop one too. So it's highly likely Jetstone units are aware she is popping an heir.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 2945
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests