Epilogue 21 – Vinny

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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Lipkin » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:38 am

Tonot wrote:Silence from the cheap seats ! ;)

Personally, I find many of the people here lay in wait for misunderstandings they can make. It isn't that i don't understand the impulse, but I just find it too predictable from some of you.

Are you saying that people intentionally make mistakes to get a rise out of others, or that people choose to misunderstand so they can get indignant themselves?

It was your choice of words that caused the confusion, and then you got indignant and blamed it on use being juvenile and intolerant. And no one likes being called such things, even if it wasn't in so many words. Understand, I'm not begrudging the miscommunication, but the way you handled the situation. Not a fan.

Had Vinny actually been romantically interested in Ansom, it would have changed my understanding of the story and it's direction

Oliolli wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Are you you adding to MC's point, or do you honestly not realize he was being sarcastic?

I was actually saying what Tonot later explained in more detail. I ust did it in a short and, apparently, difficult to understand way.

So, the latter.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Tonot » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:01 am

Lipkin wrote:Are you saying that people intentionally make mistakes to get a rise out of others, or that people choose to misunderstand so they can get indignant themselves?




Actually, I was implying that YOU PERSONALLY deliberately and habitually "misunderstand" Lilwix and the Oberons and many others, and here you were doing it to me by proxy. Just as in this same post you can't just say "Oh, I didn't understand that" to Oliolli, you find yourself compelled to say the passive aggressive "So, the latter." instead.

But it WAS NOT THE LATTER. He neither tried to add to MC's point, nor did he fail to understand MC was being sarcastic. He was instead actually making a different point. But you can not bear to admit you are even mistaken that much, so say, quite bizarrely . . . "So, the latter".

It wasn't the latter at all, and NOW . . . well, like I said, now I am going to be bored because of your predictable inability to admit when you are mistaken, so NOW, I confidently assert you are going to do your normal thing, and misunderstand, or at least CLAIM to misunderstand something in MY post.

It is tiresome. I find YOUR POSTS extremely tiresome, repetitive and puerile.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Lipkin » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:34 am

:/

Clearly you just want to argue. But if you are so frequently misunderstood, maybe stop assuming you are being persecuted and examine how you go about interacting with people.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Denar » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:12 am

Tonot, I am sad to see you have come to this conclusion about Lipkin, who I find to be a refreshing breath of air in this cesspool /hyperbole. I don't really think Lipkin has it out for anyone, nor gets his kicks from deliberately pouncing on others mistakes (though I agree that is a problem on this forum).

You did admit yourself though, that you could see where the confusion with "in love" could be, but then accused everyone who read it wrong of being infantile and, seemingly, homophobic.

And then you finish with

And so more than one poster assumes me saying "He loved Ansom" means other than what it literally means.


But the problem is that you didn't say that. You may have meant that, but you said very little in that first post (I mean to say it was simply a short post, and there was little else that could cause a misreading), and what you did say was that Vinny was "in love" with Ansom. And that means, as you put it it, what it literally means.

Regardless, there is a blocking feature, of a sort, on these forums, which I have begun using - and it makes going through threads so much more bearable. If you don't like seeing Lipkin's posts just add him to that "foe" list.

But I am really starting to agree with Lipkin on this one, why does everyone think everyone else has it in for them? There's no "debate" anymore, people try to make a post about speculation in the comic and then immediately get shot down for having the nerve to speak.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Lipkin » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:25 am

I need to take a step back, because I'm getting a little too steamed. I will say that I was needlessly snitty at Oliolli, and for that I apologize. And if Manacaster really wasn't being sarcastic, then hell yeah I'll admit that I was mistaken. But if Ol didn't miss that MC was being sarcastic, I have no idea what his point was. From my perspective, MC didn't need to be told that there are lots of different types of love. That's the entire point that he was making in the first place.

Seems like everyone is fucking agreeing right now, but we're arguing because we are being unclear with our words. And instead of addressing that, people are attacking each other.

The point is that Vinny loves Ansom, and wouldn't view his return in a negative light, right?
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Mrtyuh » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:42 am

Lipkin wrote:The point is that Vinny loves Ansom, and wouldn't view his return in a negative light, right?

I'm probably going to regret getting involved at all, but I thought the point wasn't so much that Vinny would welcome Ansom's return as it just makes the whole matter emotionally more messy. Vinny and Jillian have had a tumultuous relationship, a turbulent cycle of fights and make-up nookie. It would be much more clean cut if Jillian had just done this for someone Vinny hated, but it's Ansom. So, Vinny likes Ansom more than Jillian but loves Jillian more than Ansom but trusted Ansom more than anyone before he was Decrypted but is it even still Ansom and how could Jillian do this to him but it would be great to have his best friend back, etc. It's complicated; it's dirty; it's messy. It's fodder for drama. Everyone was so focused on how Vinny would react to Jillian going back to her ex, everyone seemed to be forgetting the relationship Vinny also had with Ansom.

Of course, that's just what I thought the original point was. It's certainly possible the author intended something different.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Lipkin » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:33 am

Mrtyuh wrote:
Lipkin wrote:The point is that Vinny loves Ansom, and wouldn't view his return in a solely negative light, right?

I'm probably going to regret getting involved at all, but I thought the point wasn't so much that Vinny would welcome Ansom's return as it just makes the whole matter emotionally more messy. Vinny and Jillian have had a tumultuous relationship, a turbulent cycle of fights and make-up nookie. It would be much more clean cut if Jillian had just done this for someone Vinny hated, but it's Ansom. So, Vinny likes Ansom more than Jillian but loves Jillian more than Ansom but trusted Ansom more than anyone before he was Decrypted but is it even still Ansom and how could Jillian do this to him but it would be great to have his best friend back, etc. It's complicated; it's dirty; it's messy. It's fodder for drama. Everyone was so focused on how Vinny would react to Jillian going back to her ex, everyone seemed to be forgetting the relationship Vinny also had with Ansom.

Of course, that's just what I thought the original point was. It's certainly possible the author intended something different.

That better? I wasn't trying to imply he'd be overjoyed or anything, just that he wouldn't only react with jealousy.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Oliolli » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:42 am

I'll admit that I may have been wrong, but It did seem to me that MC hadn't considered the existance of platonic love at all in his post. If he did, and if that was the entire point he was trying to make, the I apologise - I am not good with people in the first place and without body language and tones of voice it gets even more messy.

The way I saw it was that MC did understand that one may mourn someone even if they didn't love the person, but that love always comes with attraction. The latter was the point I got slightly agitated about.

All in all, as an asexual sexual love vs. platonic love vs. friendship vs. lust vs. anything else of the like is a touchy subject for me.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Lipkin » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:56 am

Oliolli wrote:I'll admit that I may have been wrong, but It did seem to me that MC hadn't considered the existance of platonic love at all in his post. If he did, and if that was the entire point he was trying to make, the I apologise - I am not good with people in the first place and without body language and tones of voice it gets even more messy.

The way I saw it was that MC did understand that one may mourn someone even if they didn't love the person, but that love always comes with attraction. The latter was the point I got slightly agitated about.

All in all, as an asexual sexual love vs. platonic love vs. friendship vs. lust vs. anything else of the like is a touchy subject for me.

That's why I wanted to know what you were trying to say, but I'll admit I'm a bit addicted to being snarky. Sorry again.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby CorrTerek » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:33 am

I would kind of expect anyone with a Groucho Marx avatar to be aggressively snarky. :lol:
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Lipkin » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:37 am

CorrTerek wrote:I would kind of expect anyone with a Groucho Marx avatar to be aggressively snarky. :lol:

I should practice my Harpo. Might get along better.

I'll tell you what though. I hope one day we get a Groucho Marx Carnymancer.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Aquillion » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:36 pm

Nargrakhan wrote:Something that's been bothering me... At what point or under what circumstances can a unit disobey a disband command from his ruler? I mean, it seems easy enough for a ruler to kill his would be usurper with a simple thought... and that sorta makes insurrections difficult to pull off unless it's a behind the scene assassination. Still, if the kill isn't instantaneous enough, a ruler's last thought could be to disband the most likely traitor. By the same token, how does one break Duty to their ruler for betrayal? It's one thing to disobey instructions for the good of the king, but an entirely different thing to disobey instructions that allow you to kill the king.
My guess: When you try to disband a unit, there's a loyalty check, and if the unit's loyalty fails, they become hostile (a neutral or barbarian -- presumably in your battlespace, and therefore immediately fighting you) rather than dying instantly. (This is how it works in a lot of games similar to Erfworld.)

For most units this difference is immaterial since they will be instantly squashed by their former side, but it prevents a ruler from using a disbanding to prevent a betrayal that is already in motion.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Oberon » Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:20 pm

IronBear wrote:I knew there was a reason why Ceaser was Chief Warlord. A quick fire conquest of Faq with some loyalists would allow Ceaser to set up his own side before Don can react. Plus stupid Jillian is just building up big fat treasury to boot.

I don't think so. It was clear that Don had bankrolled the founding of the new FAQ. What wasn't known before was if FAQ was truly independent, of if it required regular funds from the parent state. But now we know:
Epilogue 21 – Vinny wrote:[...] the black leather cap was necessary for receiving items, especially the occasional gem.

This pretty much guarantees that Jillian isn't just sitting on a fat treasury. She is using the funds to support those megalowgwiffs and the rest of her units. Or there would be no need for Don to keep sending her gems.

The only thing we don't know yet, if we every do find out, is if FAQ could be self supporting without TV, or if they are able to harvest a few megalowgwifs or disband some other units and reduce their support costs to a sustainable level.

DoctorJest wrote:He didn't ask about units. He asked about assets. Cash. Dinero. Clams. Stuff worth things.
In Stupidworld military parlance, "assets" are a common turn of phrase for what in Erfworld are typically called units. I'd be careful about jumping to the conclusion that Caesar is referring to schmuckers.

Tonot wrote:No. Because sex, sexual feelings, consummation, or even intention of sexual feelings, all have nothing to do with love. In mature societies* and even primitive ones, men can love other men with an intensity rivalling that between men and women. History is full of examples that men were taught of as children in an earlier time, in a more mature society.
Edit to add, in Greece, it was considered the primary human virtue, that you could love with absolute fidelity. You had duties to the State and Gods, they would have been primary, but pure faithful Platonic love for between two men was time and again extoled as perfection of character. One Greek man acting as a hostage , in faith, for another under a death sentence, while he goes away and returns. Second man does in fact return, to the amazement of the unfaithful Syracusians.

So I was economically pointing to the strength of his feeling. I said nothing about Ansoms return of it, or anything else about the relationship. My comment was the result of people reading Ansoms return as Vinny being presented with a rival, and it can not be so, he LOVES Ansom, is, as far as I can tell, merely having affectionate Nooky with Jillian, because he surely does not and never did trust her. Ansom is just one of the other people, including Wanda, that Jillian plays around with and Vinny knows that already!. How can that suddenly cause him any trauma? He has already dealt with the issue, as he has dealt with the same issue about Wanda/Jillian.
You might recall that Vinny and Jillian shared their love of Ansom. That Vinny broke through Jillian's own wall of hurt and remorse over Ansom's death by revealing to her his own hurt and remorse.

And also, which may be the 4th or 5th time I've posted this: Erfworld has no pregnancy. No venereal diseases. And from what we've seen, no state religions with a long history of intolerance, and no easy excuse that the Titans must hate gay sex because it takes a man and a woman to create a child. On Erfworld, it doesn't. You just park the kid in the production queue like any other unit, but it's not really a kid. It pops fully adult. No marriage, and so no 'blessing' of a union by the Titans. No childhood, and so no point in a unit's life where being sexually active can be frowned upon, as with sexually active minors on Stupidworld.

In short, there's no reason at all that homosexual love should be any less prevalent on Erfworld than any other kind of sexual conduct. The relationship between Jillian and Wanda is only one example of this.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby gobe » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:04 pm

Oberon wrote:In short, there's no reason at all that homosexual love should be any less prevalent on Erfworld than any other kind of sexual conduct. The relationship between Jillian and Wanda is only one example of this.


I agree with your general point, but I have to say I don't agree with that detail.

There's an excellent reason why homosexual love should be less prevalent on Erfworld than any other kind of sexual conduct. In our world, and in our fiction, and in our game worlds, straight love is more common than homosexual love - even when taking away imperatives due to culture, reproduction, laws, etc. Just the way people are born, there are more naturally straight people than gays, transgenders, bisexuals, etc. put together. And we know that Erfworld is mostly based on our own world, culture, fiction, and game worlds. Hence, this is no proof, but I give you a good reason, at least, why it wouldn't be as interchangeable as you claim.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Lamech » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:13 pm

Maybe Erfworlders are like sims. Everyone is bi until they level up their homosexuality or hetrosexuality.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:23 pm

I am going to start avoiding the current forum argument and ponder on Faq's status right now.

City design looks interesting, but rather impractical, and the walls look completely undefended. A small force of purple dwagons could probably smash in easily so long as they are grounded. Jillian's just lucky Gobwin Knob has bigger fish to fry. They could still support one of their future allies in an attack on Faq though. I doubt Fate will allow Faq to fall before Jillian's heir pops, but it sounds like the popping is going to happen soon.

Speaking of the heir, does Nooky have any signamantic connection to the popping process? Maybe the prince(ss) will inherit some of Vinny's traits.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby DoctorJest » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:26 pm

gobe wrote:There's an excellent reason why homosexual love should be less prevalent on Erfworld than any other kind of sexual conduct. In our world, and in our fiction, and in our game worlds, straight love is more common than homosexual love - even when taking away imperatives due to culture, reproduction, laws, etc. Just the way people are born, there are more naturally straight people than gays, transgenders, bisexuals, etc. put together. And we know that Erfworld is mostly based on our own world, culture, fiction, and game worlds. Hence, this is no proof, but I give you a good reason, at least, why it wouldn't be as interchangeable as you claim.


Human sexuality is much more complicated than that; Sexual orientation as a social identifier does not exist everywhere in the history of mankind, for all that our culture seems obsessed with it. There are even extant societies today which have three or more genders, not just two, which makes puzzling out sexual orientation in a binary fashion extremely difficult, if not functionally impossible.

The whole idea of binary gender and sexual orientation is a false dichotomy (as all dichotomies ultimately are) based upon cultural assumptions of gender roles, especially where sexual behavior is concerned (and sexual behavior often times doesn't even always line up with sexual orientation or identity, which makes it even more complicated). The terms "gay" "straight" and "bi" have very little meaning when you take them out of our cultural context, because a cursory examination of human sexuality demonstrates that people do not actually fit into three nice neat shiny little boxes that they can be conveniently sorted into and counted. That idea is a social construct that's part of our culture, but there's no reason to think this is the default human condition (if such a thing exists) and plenty of reasons to think it isn't.

"Trans" is a separate thing from orientation entirely and has to do with gender identity and does not preclude any possible orientation or other aspect of human sexuality (which extends along spectrums other than just orientation).

Short Version: It's more complicated than that.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby No one in particular » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:06 pm

ManaCaster wrote:I am going to start avoiding the current forum argument and ponder on Faq's status right now.

City design looks interesting, but rather impractical, and the walls look completely undefended. A small force of purple dwagons could probably smash in easily so long as they are grounded. Jillian's just lucky Gobwin Knob has bigger fish to fry. They could still support one of their future allies in an attack on Faq though. I doubt Fate will allow Faq to fall before Jillian's heir pops, but it sounds like the popping is going to happen soon.

Speaking of the heir, does Nooky have any signamantic connection to the popping process? Maybe the prince(ss) will inherit some of Vinny's traits.

As far as Faq's layout goes, that's not new; we heard about how crappy it was against siege way back in Intermission 37.

First Intermission 37 wrote: Faq was now a solid Level Four, and not like any city Vinny had ever seen.

It was circular, sharp, and shining.

The outer walls looked impressive from a distance. But they were an afterthought, worse against a siege than Transylvito's. They consisted of a ring of stone teeth with a reflective coating of tin, inward-curving towers that terminated in sharp points, connected by a web of steel piping and sheeting. There was no gate. Vinny simply flew between these pillars and entered the city. A horn somewhere announced him as an arriving allied unit.

Inside, the whole city was geared up to defend against attack from above. Towers and buildings all had spiked metallic domes for roofs, looking like a forest of war mushrooms or something.

At the center of the garrison rose a tower constructed with all the ferocity of Jillian's imagination. It was shaped something like a white marble palm tree. The trunk was a twist of six massive columns, tapering slightly as they reached straight upward. The top of the tower was a miniature fortress, a bristle of glass and hard spikes, with ledges and platforms where many dozens of flyers could land, or hundreds of defenders could lurk.
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Re: Epilogue 21 – Vinny

Postby Shai_hulud » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:11 pm

Considering the valley itself is literally impossible to enter except for mountain units, diggers, and flyers, city defense is mostly worthless compared to investing in tunnel fighting allies and more giant infantry.
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