Book 2 – Page 114

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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Werebiscuit » Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:50 pm

0beron wrote: It depends on what is meant by "the price", and I think that remains unclear. Does the 'price" mean that Wanda will cause much suffering and make her opponents pay? Or instead is it her own personal suffering that gradually pays back her debt? Or is it everyone, every Side, who benefits from her has to pay dearly for the gains she gives them? She has outlasted 3, maybe soon to be 4 sides, each one falling in large part due to her actions/presence.


Possibly all 3 options... remember ..this unit would be worth much more than the buyer had paid for. ;)

and Charlie paid a terrible price for his life.....just sayin.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:55 pm

I think the currency has to be the same, meaning Units. So many many many units need to croak in order to pay back her debt. The question is whether it matters where they come from. Will any units do, including the ones she croaks? Or must it be her allies who die? Obviously a rhetorical question at this point, and we may never know...but still.
However I do think Charlie's price could fit into the equation somewhere, because even though he may not have been aware of it at the time, he was keeping himself alive so that he could live to defy Wanda. That seems like a fitting payment, the amount of effort an enemy has to expend to fight back against you settles your debt.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:56 pm

Werebiscuit wrote:...and Charlie paid a terrible price for his life.....just sayin.
Oh, are you suggesting the unit mentioned in Book 0 is actually Charlie popping? I mean it'd be an interesting twist...but it seems to pretty clealry be Wanda because of the context.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Werebiscuit » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:01 pm

0beron wrote:
Werebiscuit wrote:...and Charlie paid a terrible price for his life.....just sayin.
Oh, are you suggesting the unit mentioned in Book 0 is actually Charlie popping? I mean it'd be an interesting twist...but it seems to pretty clealry be Wanda because of the context.

Not suggesting the unit popping was Charlie..but the unit paying may have been...although it seems fate may have used his currency to other ends. The passage starts with "in the country of zero someone paid a price" and that price seems to have been pretty high...some might even say terrible.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:11 pm

Oooooooooh ok, now THAT is a theory I like, your point makes sense now. Charlie didn't pay Erfworld so he could fight Wanda....Erfworld made Wanda to fight HIM.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby ManaCaster » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:04 pm

Lilwik wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:I'm not sure how debts work between sides, but if the limit involved debts, then that would either mean that capturing casters is risky too, or that you could bypass the debt by creating a smaller puppet side that pops your casters for you, than recreates itself to reset the Fate debt.
I don't believe for a second that Luckamancy debts can be reset that way. I don't know that Carnymancy debts even exist, but if they do then I wouldn't believe they could be reset either. It's the people who are being cursed, not the side, and they surely have to live with it even if the side ceases. That would be even more surely true for Carnymancy since it's messing with their Fates, and you don't get away from your Fate no matter what trickery you try.

I wouldn't even expect the puppet side trick to work because the curse might happen to jump across side boundaries to hit close allies. It might hit your personal friends just because they are your friends, no matter what side they are on. In Book 0, Episode 8, Clay doesn't have any good answers about where the curse might end up, so it really could go anywhere. The puppet side might be no protection at all.

On top of that, we keep getting Carnymancy described in terms of exchanges. We have Sylvia in Book 2, Page 86. Jojo made a trade for her. I have no idea what sort of trade that was. Maybe it was a trade of Fate, or maybe he just bought a spell from the Magic Kingdom, but it's interesting. Then there is Charlie in Book 0, Episode 68: "He survived by means of Carnymancy, buying back his life at a terrible cost." I would really like to know what that's about.

First off, I think there is more to popping a caster versus a warlord than just chance. Faq is a 3 city side, yet has many more casters than some of the most powerful sides in Erfworld, probably because of Banhammer's desires to have philosophers. Making a caster pop instead of a warlord might not create a specific debt in the first place, beyond the normal costs of creating a new unit.

Second of all, the only way for that strategy not to work is if there is a limit on how many casters there can be in all Erfworld. Which wouldn't surprise me, sure, it would certainly explain why the Magic Kingdom isn't massive or suffering from population pressure. But there would be a way for me to work around even that limitation and still get what I want. Capturing/creating a large number of capital sites and spawning a whole bunch of puppet sides, keeping their casters on their sides, but using them as if they were your own, would definitely work. And the only difference is the scale of effort necessary, and the fact that you can't custom design your casters via Carnymancer. So really, what's the point of stopping a Carnymancy caster link from reaching in and influencing the Fate magic designing the unit? It would take some ludicrously perfect rules (or a railroading, and possibly even "cheating" GM) to stop me from finding a loophole short of making the game unplayable. And exploiting loopholes (and beating railroads) is one of the main themes of the entire comic.

As to the other end of a custom unit designing link, I would guess at Moneymancer. Natural allies pop rations and new units via natural Moneymancy, it might be that Moneymancy is involved in normal unit production too.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lilwik » Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:22 pm

ManaCaster wrote:Second of all, the only way for that strategy not to work is if there is a limit on how many casters there can be in all Erfworld. Which wouldn't surprise me, sure, it would certainly explain why the Magic Kingdom isn't massive or suffering from population pressure. But there would be a way for me to work around even that limitation and still get what I want. Capturing/creating a large number of capital sites and spawning a whole bunch of puppet sides, keeping their casters on their sides, but using them as if they were your own, would definitely work.
I don't understand how that gets around a limit to how many casters there can be in Erfworld. I could believe that there could be a soft limit. Perhaps something in the mechanism that decides whether casters will pop is inhibited by the presence of casters, most powerfully by the casters on the same side, then by ally casters, they by the casters of the whole world, so that before a flood of casters could radically change how Erfworld works casters would just stop popping completely. It could be like that, then trying to gain unfair advantage by popping casters would be hopeless.

As to the other end of a custom unit designing link, I would guess at Moneymancer. Natural allies pop rations and new units via natural Moneymancy, it might be that Moneymancy is involved in normal unit production too.
I can't remember where I read that unit production is separate from shmuckers, but I'm pretty sure. A city produces units in much the same way as it produces shmuckers, so there's no need to pay for the units in any currency except time. If you did have a Carnymancer/Moneymancer link, then I expect that would give you the power to instantly pop casters straight from your treasury, no luck and no waiting needed.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:32 pm

For what it's worth, I have thought of deliberately popping casters as the domain of a Luck-Think-Carny link-up. Manipulate the odds of a caster popping up to 100, by cheating the Fate involved. Popping a caster IS simply a matter of odds, it just gets nudged according the the Titan's will/Fate. So if you can make a deal to steal those odds from somewhere else, boom, you'd have your caster. You would basically be making it your Fate to have a caster right then, at some other expense.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby ManaCaster » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:28 pm

Lilwik wrote:I don't understand how that gets around a limit to how many casters there can be in Erfworld.

Technically speaking, it wouldn't get around any theoretical global limit, if such a thing exists, but it would make it easier to make the casters that do exist come under your control.

Lilwik wrote:I could believe that there could be a soft limit. Perhaps something in the mechanism that decides whether casters will pop is inhibited by the presence of casters, most powerfully by the casters on the same side, then by ally casters, they by the casters of the whole world, so that before a flood of casters could radically change how Erfworld works casters would just stop popping completely. It could be like that, then trying to gain unfair advantage by popping casters would be hopeless.

There are so many ways to get around that, that such a thing would require something sentient to enforce it, not a debt. Again, that's too complicated to place a flat out ban on.

I don't think these things haven't been done because the Titans are deliberately imposing all of these restrictions. They haven't been done because Erfworlders just don't have any level of creativity.

Lilwik wrote:I can't remember where I read that unit production is separate from shmuckers, but I'm pretty sure. A city produces units in much the same way as it produces shmuckers, so there's no need to pay for the units in any currency except time. If you did have a Carnymancer/Moneymancer link, then I expect that would give you the power to instantly pop casters straight from your treasury, no luck and no waiting needed.

Maybe. Regardless, this is the link that I would place my bets on for deliberately popping casters.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby ManaCaster » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:39 pm

0beron wrote:For what it's worth, I have thought of deliberately popping casters as the domain of a Luck-Think-Carny link-up. Manipulate the odds of a caster popping up to 100, by cheating the Fate involved. Popping a caster IS simply a matter of odds, it just gets nudged according the the Titan's will/Fate. So if you can make a deal to steal those odds from somewhere else, boom, you'd have your caster. You would basically be making it your Fate to have a caster right then, at some other expense.

Entirely possible, but not necessarily.

When an Erfworlder upgrades a city, much of it depends on their imagination, but some things are derived from some sort of template said Erfworlder doesn't really understand. Popping casters might work in a very similar fashion, except that a lot more of the info and control is hidden and less clearly understood. As such, it would look like chance to anyone who doesn't understand it, but it wouldn't really be if you knew what you were doing. What casters pop seems to depend on the desires of the ruler and the Titans themselves after all. Faq would have had to use up a lot of Luckamancy to get so many casters if it were based on that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:13 pm

ManaCaster wrote:Faq would have had to use up a lot of Luckamancy to get so many casters if it were based on that.
Not if that's what the Titans had planned for them anyway, or if they were extremely old as a side. And the odds wouldn't deal just in casters. They may have been given more casters because they were deficient in other areas, or perhaps the casters themselves were low quality/moronic. You would only need the Luck/Carny combo to pop a caster that you were never meant to have in the first place, or at the wrong time.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby ManaCaster » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:20 pm

0beron wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:Faq would have had to use up a lot of Luckamancy to get so many casters if it were based on that.
Not if that's what the Titans had planned for them anyway...


From Wanda and Marie's description, when the Titans want to protect someone from croaking, or make someone else croak, they have to use up Luckamancy. So if Luckamancy was involved in caster popping, the Titans would have had to use it up in this case as well.

0beron wrote:...or if they were extremely old as a side.

Must have gone through and lost quite a large number of warlords if that is the case. Jetstone was a powerful side that has gone through a huge number of warlords, and yet they only have 4 casters. 5 if you want to count the one that croaked. Faq, a 3 city side, had what, 8?

0beron wrote:And the odds wouldn't deal just in casters. They may have been given more casters because they were deficient in other areas, or perhaps the casters themselves were low quality/moronic. You would only need the Luck/Carny combo to pop a caster that you were never meant to have in the first place, or at the wrong time.

Possible. But even if that works, the Carnymancy/Moneymancy possibility would probably be safer to use. The idea behind that one is, instead of manipulating and using up luck, you'd just be taking full control of the natural Fate magic responsible for figuring out what the new unit is going to look like.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lilwik » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:27 pm

ManaCaster wrote:From Wanda and Marie's description, when the Titans want to protect someone from croaking, or make someone else croak, they have to use up Luckamancy.
To me it looks like they are saying the exact opposite: “Luck would matter only if the shot didn’t.” That means that if the shot is important, luck doesn't matter. If Fate has an event in the pipeline to happen, and a shot needs to hit in order to make that event possible, then luck isn't part of the picture because you know in advance that the shot will hit. Erfworlders need to think about that sort of thing when they have a Predictamancer on their team.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby ManaCaster » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:35 pm

Lilwik wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:From Wanda and Marie's description, when the Titans want to protect someone from croaking, or make someone else croak, they have to use up Luckamancy.
To me it looks like they are saying the exact opposite: “Luck would matter only if the shot didn’t.” That means that if the shot is important, luck doesn't matter. If Fate has an event in the pipeline to happen, and a shot needs to hit in order to make that event possible, then luck isn't part of the picture because you know in advance that the shot will hit. Erfworlders need to think about that sort of thing when they have a Predictamancer on their team.

I think what I meant should be clear enough. I wasn't referring to natural Luckamancy. I was referring to the fact that the Titans manipulate the odds like a Carnymancer, stealing good numbers from somewhere else.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:02 pm

And you're taking the words of a Mortal caster on how the Titans/Fate work? That would be like a priest saying he knows exactly how mechanically God made the universe. And it's the exact opposite of your earlier point, claiming that as mere observers, units cannot know for sure that popping obeys certain odds/trends.
And no, it was not clear what you were saying, you specifically said they use up Luckamancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby ManaCaster » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:09 pm

0beron wrote:And you're taking the words of a Mortal caster on how the Titans/Fate work? That would be like a priest saying he knows exactly how mechanically God made the universe. And it's the exact opposite of your earlier point, claiming that as mere observers, units cannot know for sure that popping obeys certain odds/trends.

I said the Predictamancer knows a thing. I didn't say she knows everything. This isn't even directly related to popping.

0beron wrote:And no, it was not clear what you were saying, you specifically said they use up Luckamancy.

Yeesh. We were talking about manipulating odds and the debts involved. Do we really need to get caught up on semantics?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:54 pm

ManaCaster wrote:I said the Predictamancer knows a thing. I didn't say she knows everything. This isn't even directly related to popping.
Then what exactly is your point? If you admit it's not about the topic at hand, what exactly does it prove about your point, and how is it helpful?
ManaCaster wrote:Do we really need to get caught up on semantics?
Yes, if you'e gonna jump down someone's throat for using the exact words you used and then telling them they're wrong, then you need to be told to shove it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby ManaCaster » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:04 am

0beron wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:I said the Predictamancer knows a thing. I didn't say she knows everything. This isn't even directly related to popping.
Then what exactly is your point? If you admit it's not about the topic at hand, what exactly does it prove about your point, and how is it helpful?
ManaCaster wrote:Do we really need to get caught up on semantics?
Yes, if you'e gonna jump down someone's throat for using the exact words you used and then telling them they're wrong, then you need to be told to shove it.

I am sorry for my overbearing hostility and for causing so much offense. I will concede the forum argument and continue no further.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Mrtyuh » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:21 am

On yet another tangent, two things occurred to me today. One may concern the nature of Carnymancy, at least to a certain extent. We know that, usually, Fate doesn't care what happens to a particular unit. Tommy had no Fate. He was poisoned by Olive, but that was never his Fate. What if one of the things Carnymancy does is create Fates. Sylvia was a Level-1 Stabber from Unaroyal. She probably had no Fate, but she should have croaked in a burning enemy garrison. Through Carnymancy, she survived, but she became Fated to croak in a burning enemy garrison. When the Battle of Gobwin Knob happened, she finally did croak in a burning enemy garrison, but Wanda brought her back, so she was still Fated to die in a burning enemy garrison. She was finally dusted in a burning enemy garrison at Spacerock. That is why she had so much Luckamancy during the battle. Fate would not allow her to die in another way.

If this is true, and I'll acknowledge I'm probably in tin foil hat territory here, Charlie is probably Fated to be poisoned. That may be why he has no warlords and pops nothing but ultra-loyal archons and mindless golems. He's afraid that if a unit gets near him, they'll have an opportunity to poison him.

The second thing that occurred to me was what the greatest advantage of being attuned to an Arkentool is: unlimited juice. We have repeatedly seen that the greatest limiting factor to a caster is the amount of juice they possess. While their reservoirs seem to increase as they increase in level, they remain finite. We know, however, that Charlie can handle an unlimited number of Thinkagrams a turn, and Wanda can Decrypt as many bodies as she can access a turn. Maybe Stanley can shoot an unlimited number of lightning bolts. That may be the reason that something like rigging the popping of a caster doesn't happen more often. Maybe the energy requirements would require the link up of 3 Level 10 or higher casters, and there just aren't enough high enough level casters to make it feasible. That's why the Attuned are able to accomplish such miraculous feats: unlimited juice.
मृत्युः सर्वहरश्चाहमुद्भवश्च भविष्यताम् ।
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lipkin » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:48 am

Don't forget that the shoes had unlimited move.
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