Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Mrtyuh » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:27 am

The thing is, we know that unled scouts don't autoengage when they can hide. We also have reason to believe that scouts aren't captured when a city falls, because Don ordered Bat 3 to evacuate Spacerock after the city had fallen, and it wasn't captured. Unfortunately, we do not know if a scout can prevent a city from falling, since Bat 3 was not in the garrison, but we know with certainty that scouts do follow different rules. Now, the full extent of those differences is a matter that we can only speculate upon at this time.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby No one in particular » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:13 am

Mrtyuh wrote:The thing is, we know that unled scouts don't autoengage when they can hide. We also have reason to believe that scouts aren't captured when a city falls, because Don ordered Bat 3 to evacuate Spacerock after the city had fallen, and it wasn't captured. Unfortunately, we do not know if a scout can prevent a city from falling, since Bat 3 was not in the garrison, but we know with certainty that scouts do follow different rules. Now, the full extent of those differences is a matter that we can only speculate upon at this time.

More to the point, Bat 3 wasn't a Jetstone unit. For all intents & purposes it was an invader in the contested city, both when it was Jetstone City & when it was a GK City. We have no reason to think that a Jetstone scout wouldn't have been shackled.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby 0beron » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:22 pm

No one in particular wrote:More to the point, Bat 3 wasn't a Jetstone unit. For all intents & purposes it was an invader in the contested city, both when it was Jetstone City & when it was a GK City. We have no reason to think that a Jetstone scout wouldn't have been shackled.
I'm not sure about that. Aren't TV and Jetstone formally allied at this point? If so, then I think TV and Jetstone units would be treated the same, since there has been a distinction between units of an allied side and of enemy sides.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Lilwik » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:52 pm

Mrtyuh wrote:Unfortunately, we do not know if a scout can prevent a city from falling, since Bat 3 was not in the garrison, but we know with certainty that scouts do follow different rules.
Technically we only know with certainty that bats follow different rules. Maybe it wasn't shackled because it's a bat and has no hands to tie. Maybe only humanoid units get shackled and animals largely ignore the city changing hands. I wouldn't expect every mount in the stables to become a shackled prisoner; I would expect those mounts to just immediately turn. Perhaps the bat would have turned to Gobwin Knob too if it weren't for the Thinkamancy connection with Transylvito.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Shai_hulud » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:32 pm

I have a hard time imaging Crapsack turning away from Jillian.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:59 pm

0beron wrote:
No one in particular wrote:More to the point, Bat 3 wasn't a Jetstone unit. For all intents & purposes it was an invader in the contested city, both when it was Jetstone City & when it was a GK City. We have no reason to think that a Jetstone scout wouldn't have been shackled.
I'm not sure about that. Aren't TV and Jetstone formally allied at this point? If so, then I think TV and Jetstone units would be treated the same, since there has been a distinction between units of an allied side and of enemy sides.

As far as the city rules go, we've already seen that the side that controls a city and its allied sides are not treated quite the same. After Kingworld, the first thing that clued Slately in that his turn had started was an allied Faq unit being able to cross from Airspace to Tower, which she couldn't do before because she and her mount didn't have move during GK's turn: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_22. Whereas, Jetstone units had been able to move freely between the city zones. (Personally, I was quite surprised about this distinction.)

It would be a dicey proposition to station a valuable force in a non-garrison zone of an allied city if they would get auto-shackled upon city capture and also unable to enter the garrison to defend the city from being captured.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Mrtyuh » Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:49 am

No one in particular wrote:More to the point, Bat 3 wasn't a Jetstone unit. For all intents & purposes it was an invader in the contested city, both when it was Jetstone City & when it was a GK City. We have no reason to think that a Jetstone scout wouldn't have been shackled.


Chit Rule Railroad wrote:As far as the city rules go, we've already seen that the side that controls a city and its allied sides are not treated quite the same. After Kingworld, the first thing that clued Slately in that his turn had started was an allied Faq unit being able to cross from Airspace to Tower, which she couldn't do before because she and her mount didn't have move during GK's turn: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_22. Whereas, Jetstone units had been able to move freely between the city zones. (Personally, I was quite surprised about this distinction.)

It would be a dicey proposition to station a valuable force in a non-garrison zone of an allied city if they would get auto-shackled upon city capture and also unable to enter the garrison to defend the city from being captured.

There are a lot of things we don't know about how allied units interact in a city. For example, say you control a city, and there are both your units and allied units in the garrison. If an enemy attacks and croaks all your units, but the ally manages to croak all the attackers, is it still your city, or does it become your ally's? Another example is what would have happened if the RCC had captured Gobwin Knob? There were multiple sides there. Whose city would it have become? Now, in the latter case, I assume they had that worked out and stipulated in a contract, since Ansom makes a comment about sides forfeiting their spoils if Parson were croaked. Still, in a situation with less meticulous planning, whose city would it be, if all allied sides had troops in the garrison when it fell? Once again, we don't know all the rules, so we can't say for certain, hence the speculation. Still, you bring up a good point, i.e. that allied units also follow different rules. That certainly may be the reason Bat 3 wasn't captured.

0beron wrote:I'm not sure about that. Aren't TV and Jetstone formally allied at this point? If so, then I think TV and Jetstone units would be treated the same, since there has been a distinction between units of an allied side and of enemy sides.

Given that Transylvito's natural position in the turn order is before Gobwin Knob's, yet Bat 3 is moving during Jetstone's turn, after Gobwin Knob's, I think it is certain that Transylvito is officially allied with the RCC II and is sharing a turn with them. On the other hand, as already mentioned, allied units are not treated equally within an ally's city.

Lilwik wrote:Technically we only know with certainty that bats follow different rules. Maybe it wasn't shackled because it's a bat and has no hands to tie. Maybe only humanoid units get shackled and animals largely ignore the city changing hands. I wouldn't expect every mount in the stables to become a shackled prisoner; I would expect those mounts to just immediately turn. Perhaps the bat would have turned to Gobwin Knob too if it weren't for the Thinkamancy connection with Transylvito.

I was trying to pick my words very carefully, but I apparently failed. We know, in certain circumstances, such as when unled in the same hex as an enemy, that scouts follow different rules. Instead of autoengaging they will attempt to hide. We know that Bat 3, a scout, was not captured when the garrison fell, even though it was in the city at the time. Since we know some circumstances where scouts follow different rules and we saw a scout avoid capture when a city fell, it is not unreasonable to speculate that scouts are not captured when a city falls. I'm not claiming it's how Erfworld works, but it is reasonable speculation. As mentioned, the reason it wasn't captured may have been because it was an allied unit instead of a Jetstone unit. Also, we know that some units can be harvested for provisions like livestock but not others. With that in mind, it is certainly possible that your suggestion that Bat 3 follows different rules since it is a bat is also sound.

To take my rampant speculation in a different direction, your comment about mounts got me thinking. We know that in Goodminton, Wanda saw war beasts "in iron chains or in cages." I can think of three reasons for these creatures to be chained or caged. The first that they were Goodminton units that were simply being kept locked up, perhaps because they were too dangerous to be allowed to roam free. This is a possibility, but it is my least favorite of the three. While mounts may be stabled, we've seen units like dwagons and gwiffons just flying around a capital. If those units can be allowed to roam free, I don't see a reason to shackle these units. The second possibility is that these are feral units. Goodminton has captured them and is either attempting to tame them or keeping them for future harvesting. I like this idea, and think it very plausible. The third possibility is that these units are prisoners. Now, it was said that Goodminton didn't have any prisoners at the time, but that may have only referred to speaking units in the dungeons. Three types of units were mentioned: pokedaemons, a fruit brute and a pedobear. Now, Daemons are a type of Natural Ally. Are pokedaemons a type of Daemon? We don't know. We do know that Haffaton was allied with the High Elves, and Elves won't ally with a side that is allied with Daemons. So, if a pokedaemon is a type of Daemon, it couldn't be a Haffaton unit. Still, there were six sides engaged in that Battlespace: Goodminton, Frenemy, Quisling, Haffaton and two unidentified sides. It's possible that the pokedaemons were units of one of the two unidentified sides. There is one of these units we see later: the pedobear. At the time that Jillian fought it, it was definitely a Haffaton unit, but there are different explanations for it. Perhaps it was always a Haffaton unit and, when the tannenbaums attacked Goodminton, they liberated it. Another possibility is, as you suggested, it was a Goodminton unit, but as a bestial unit, it turned immediately when the city fell. There is a third possibility. We know that Haffaton did not raze Goodminton and that a captured city produces the same units it used to unless it is razed, therefore it is possible that Haffaton simply popped the pedobear that Jillian fought after they had captured the city.

So, what have we learned here? Pretty much nothing. It's possible that captured bestial units do indeed have shackles or cages appear when captured. Perhaps they automatically turn. Perhaps there is another alternative that hasn't been mentioned and I can't think of. Going back to the original, sort of, point, maybe Bat 3 wasn't captured because it was a bestial unit under the direct control of a Thinkamancer. Perhaps it wasn't captured because it was in an allied city instead of one of its own side. Perhaps it wasn't captured because it was a scout. So far, these all look like viable options to me, of course, I'm running low on sleep. I'm not really trying to argue one over another. The way I see it, I'm more adding data points than anything else. Well, that and wildly speculating, speculating, speculating....
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Lilwik » Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:26 am

Mrtyuh wrote:We know, in certain circumstances, such as when unled in the same hex as an enemy, that scouts follow different rules. Instead of autoengaging they will attempt to hide.
I see your point about that, and it might be true that being a scout protects a unit from being shackled when the city is captured, but I'm not comfortable using the fact that scouts have different rules of engagement as evidence. These are very different kinds of rules. One is a rule that governs the choices that a unit makes, and the other is a rule about the way the world works. I suspect that scouts don't auto-engage simply because they've been given orders not to, but surely you can't order a unit to not be shackled when the city falls.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby Mrtyuh » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:26 am

Lilwik wrote:I see your point about that, and it might be true that being a scout protects a unit from being shackled when the city is captured, but I'm not comfortable using the fact that scouts have different rules of engagement as evidence. These are very different kinds of rules. One is a rule that governs the choices that a unit makes, and the other is a rule about the way the world works. I suspect that scouts don't auto-engage simply because they've been given orders not to, but surely you can't order a unit to not be shackled when the city falls.

Well, the implication from Phoebe's story was that once all the archons with leadership were killed, the scout-configuration archons hid; they hid specifically because they no longer had anyone to tell them what to do. Compare this to Wrigley, whose stack charged the moment they no longer had anyone to tell them what to do.

Still, you have a valid point. Just because certain units are wired mentally to react differently in a certain situation, doesn't necessarily mean that they are treated differently when a city falls.
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Re: Epilogue 20 – Jillian and Ansom

Postby BakaGrappler » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:50 am

Oh! Wait, yeah! Mike, I couldn't see Ansom's chin in the update, but I just wanna say, as a reminder because Ansom's face is a bit unique in the story, please remember that Ansom has a chin like the prow of an ice-breaker ship. A chin so massive and manly that his jaw makes Stallone look like Van Damme.

So, I know you're getting into the style of the universe and are probably just now getting comfy with the normal pattern of faces, so just a friendly reminder that Ansom has the jaw that's launched a thousand ships, and a chin that can sink them.
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