Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby Fcannon » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:46 pm

I think it should be pointed out that SPW, as far as we've seen, is explicitly a tool Fate has used to try to off Charlie. Judy free willed herself out of it, sure, but she pretty openly said she knew she was supposed to kill him, and saw the heroine bud situation as Fate's punishment. I really, really doubt Charlie would ever let it be cast again if he had the power to stop it, let alone actually facilitate its casting.
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby Free Radical » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:45 pm

Fcannon wrote:I think it should be pointed out that SPW, as far as we've seen, is explicitly a tool Fate has used to try to off Charlie. Judy free willed herself out of it, sure, but she pretty openly said she knew she was supposed to kill him, and saw the heroine bud situation as Fate's punishment. I really, really doubt Charlie would ever let it be cast again if he had the power to stop it, let alone actually facilitate its casting.

I thought she implied that Olive was punishing her for not croaking him?
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby CelebrenIthil » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:59 pm

AbuDhabi wrote:Do Erfworlders die of old age?

I get the distinc impression that Erfworld runs by the Age of Empire's If They Don't Get Killed Then They're Still Around unit persistence mechanic.

I'm terrible at engaging in actual discussions with you guys here but I guess, going back to that comment I made in the earlier Transylvito thread about Jillian's heir becoming effectively erased if Trans. would capture FAQ's capital.... The way Trammenis' journal makes it sound, the heir is pretty much lost.
I think we can safely rule out the "if the Side persists, the heir will still pop somehow" theory.
It doesn't rule out "the heir popping process might resume if the city is recaptured", but Trem doesn't mention any such hopes. Though it's unlikely enough in the short-term that Jetstone can recapture, so that might be why he doesn't even consider it.
Finally, we've yet to get back to GK, but some time has passed since the battle and no mention was made of "hey that's strange we seem to be popping a unit" so the thory that the popping process might continue for the conquering side remains unproven. I guess it could always happen without them noticing...
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:07 pm

CelebrenIthil wrote:Finally, we've yet to get back to GK, but some time has passed since the battle and no mention was made of "hey that's strange we seem to be popping a unit" so the thory that the popping porcess might continue for the conquering side remains unproven. I guess it could always happen without them noticing...
Yes but keep in mind that Stanley is kinda outa the loop at the moment and he is probably the only one capable of noticing (and he isn't always the most obeservant fellow....) besides a Warlord stationed in the city itself...and I don't think there are any at the moment. There is also the question of whether non-Royals can even pop and heir of if they must always use Designates once they go Overlord. It may be possible that this is why the Heir is lost, but if Trans captures FAQ for instance, Jillian's child may still pop.
Lots of unanswered theoreticals....but yeah Trem's testimony does seem well-timed to be a subtle answer form Rob. He has a history of providing us with clarifying answers to things that become hot-button topics on the forum shortly after.
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby TheChaplin » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:13 pm

Fcannon wrote: SPW, as far as we've seen, is explicitly a tool Fate has used to try to off Charlie.


I'm sorry, could you bring me up to speed here. Peeps cite this so frequently on this forum it seems like it is taken for gospel. As far as I have read Parson is only believed by some casters to be "Fated" to kill Charlie; casters who even in their own community can't agree on what "Fate" is.

They can't be sure of it. Why should we?

I seems to me a disservice to logic, to use characters' beliefs in order to interpret the cosmic rules of the fiction. To say "Fate" is a literary Titan with an agenda and a chip on its shoulder sounds a bit much. SPW is a tool to be sure... by casters initiating their own agenda.
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:20 pm

Regardless of whether it's actually Fate's hand or not, that is how SPW is actually being used. Even if Parson isn't technically Fated to kill Charlie, the fact that people believe it and are pushing him to do so really has the same end result. Charlie will, correctly or not, interpret it as Fate working against him. So the original point of Fcannon's post is a valid one.

However, on the topic of whether it really IS Fate or not....I don't believe we have been given the exact wording of it yet, but there is apparently a Prediction regarding Charlie and Parson. Since we don't know the exact wording, we can't be sure if it's just been wrongly interpretted...but yeah there is some apparent basis for the claim.
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby CelebrenIthil » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:39 pm

0beron wrote:
CelebrenIthil wrote:Finally, we've yet to get back to GK, but some time has passed since the battle and no mention was made of "hey that's strange we seem to be popping a unit" so the thory that the popping porcess might continue for the conquering side remains unproven. I guess it could always happen without them noticing...
Yes but keep in mind that Stanley is kinda outa the loop at the moment and he is probably the only one capable of noticing (and he isn't always the most obeservant fellow....) /cut for lenght

Right, like I said, we've yet to really have a good look back at GK - we've seen Parson in the Magic Kingdom Shenanigans, but very little of how the side fares as a whole.
So it's still possible without going into the epileptic twees, but like I think we both agree, it's looking increasingly less likely... Don't stop believin' if you like though heheh! :)

0beron wrote:However, on the topic of whether it really IS Fate or not....I don't believe we have been given the exact wording of it yet, but there is apparently a Prediction regarding Charlie and Parson. Since we don't know the exact wording, we can't be sure if it's just been wrongly interpretted...but yeah there is some apparent basis for the claim.


"...either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..."
...
What do you mean, "wrong story"?
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:41 pm

Celeb...I have always liked you, for your superb avatar (second only to my own) and your adorable yet clever dwagon names, but that post really sealed the deal :p
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby Lamech » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:07 pm

CelebrenIthil wrote:
AbuDhabi wrote:Do Erfworlders die of old age?

I get the distinc impression that Erfworld runs by the Age of Empire's If They Don't Get Killed Then They're Still Around unit persistence mechanic.

I'm terrible at engaging in actual discussions with you guys here but I guess, going back to that comment I made in the earlier Transylvito thread about Jillian's heir becoming effectively erased if Trans. would capture FAQ's capital.... The way Trammenis' journal makes it sound, the heir is pretty much lost.
I think we can safely rule out the "if the Side persists, the heir will still pop somehow" theory.
It doesn't rule out "the heir popping process might resume if the city is recaptured", but Trem doesn't mention any such hopes. Though it's unlikely enough in the short-term that Jetstone can recapture, so that might be why he doesn't even consider it.
Finally, we've yet to get back to GK, but some time has passed since the battle and no mention was made of "hey that's strange we seem to be popping a unit" so the thory that the popping process might continue for the conquering side remains unproven. I guess it could always happen without them noticing...

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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby Lilwik » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:11 pm

0beron wrote:I don't believe we have been given the exact wording of it yet, but there is apparently a Prediction regarding Charlie and Parson. Since we don't know the exact wording, we can't be sure if it's just been wrongly interpreted...but yeah there is some apparent basis for the claim.
I've noticed that so far in the story there has never been a Prediction that was misinterpreted because of wording. Wanda really did serve Olive. Jillian really did kill the ruler of Haffaton. Parson really did get through the Spacerock portal. I don't think Predictamancers are like the oracles that you sometimes find in fiction who are prone to be clever tricksters with their wording. Predictamancers are trying to be good and useful units to their sides, so the least they can do is word their Predictions so that they are correctly understood. A misunderstood Prediction could be worse than no Prediction at all.

The bigger issue with us not having the wording of Parson's prophecies is that we don't know how far the prophecies go. Is Parson Fated to croak Charlie? Is Parson Fated to defeat Charlie? Is Parson Fated to be capable of defeating Charlie given a chance? Or something else?
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby Allsardane » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:19 pm

I'm not talking about a trade with GK. Simply a trade with a queen who will be unwilling to give up the warlord she backstabbed Tramennis (by leaving the fight without fighting) in order to capture. Doesn't sound much easier than a trade with GK when I put it that way, but I'm thinking something along the lines of- Ansom finds out how his brother turned back just before his death and tells Jillian that he won't turn for her but he will turn for his King Tram. Jillian once again is in a position of not being able to have what she wants (fits with her background of always being torn) and hopefully realizes that a willingly turned Ansom would benefit everyone by reducing the effectiveness of the Brood Queen. Now for her it should be a matter of getting the best ROI while trying to prove to Ansom that this counts as her thinking of his "type" of undead as a living being and acting compassionately towards them (which is know is currently one of his problems with her).

0beron wrote:
Allsardane wrote:The real question for me in this matter is "what does Tram have to offer in exchange for getting his brother back?". Not money. Probably not a city. One of his casters?
He doesn't have to offer anything, he just needs for Ansom to turn. This wouldn't be a willing "deal" with GK, it'd be a steal. If either Jillian or Trem can get Ansom on their respective sides, then problem solved, no trade with GK needed.
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby Lipkin » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:51 pm

0beron wrote:
CelebrenIthil wrote:Finally, we've yet to get back to GK, but some time has passed since the battle and no mention was made of "hey that's strange we seem to be popping a unit" so the thory that the popping porcess might continue for the conquering side remains unproven. I guess it could always happen without them noticing...
Yes but keep in mind that Stanley is kinda outa the loop at the moment and he is probably the only one capable of noticing (and he isn't always the most obeservant fellow....) besides a Warlord stationed in the city itself...and I don't think there are any at the moment. There is also the question of whether non-Royals can even pop and heir of if they must always use Designates once they go Overlord. It may be possible that this is why the Heir is lost, but if Trans captures FAQ for instance, Jillian's child may still pop.
Lots of unanswered theoreticals....but yeah Trem's testimony does seem well-timed to be a subtle answer form Rob. He has a history of providing us with clarifying answers to things that become hot-button topics on the forum shortly after.

There are still Warlords in Spacerock. Parson had Wanda decrypt a few warlords, some knights, and a few dozen other units to help gather up bodies, before pulling his Magic Kingdom field trip trick.


Lilwik wrote:
0beron wrote:I don't believe we have been given the exact wording of it yet, but there is apparently a Prediction regarding Charlie and Parson. Since we don't know the exact wording, we can't be sure if it's just been wrongly interpreted...but yeah there is some apparent basis for the claim.
I've noticed that so far in the story there has never been a Prediction that was misinterpreted because of wording. Wanda really did serve Olive. Jillian really did kill the ruler of Haffaton. Parson really did get through the Spacerock portal. I don't think Predictamancers are like the oracles that you sometimes find in fiction who are prone to be clever tricksters with their wording. Predictamancers are trying to be good and useful units to their sides, so the least they can do is word their Predictions so that they are correctly understood. A misunderstood Prediction could be worse than no Prediction at all.

The bigger issue with us not having the wording of Parson's prophecies is that we don't know how far the prophecies go. Is Parson Fated to croak Charlie? Is Parson Fated to defeat Charlie? Is Parson Fated to be capable of defeating Charlie given a chance? Or something else?
This is true. Predictions don't seem to be misinterpreted. But I bet no one has tried to exploit a loophole in such predictions before either. And I bet Parson would be the first to try.
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby nargbop » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:54 pm

Lilwik wrote:
0beron wrote:I don't believe we have been given the exact wording of it yet, but there is apparently a Prediction regarding Charlie and Parson. Since we don't know the exact wording, we can't be sure if it's just been wrongly interpreted...but yeah there is some apparent basis for the claim.
I've noticed that so far in the story there has never been a Prediction that was misinterpreted because of wording. Wanda really did serve Olive. Jillian really did kill the ruler of Haffaton. Parson really did get through the Spacerock portal. I don't think Predictamancers are like the oracles that you sometimes find in fiction who are prone to be clever tricksters with their wording. Predictamancers are trying to be good and useful units to their sides, so the least they can do is word their Predictions so that they are correctly understood. A misunderstood Prediction could be worse than no Prediction at all.

The bigger issue with us not having the wording of Parson's prophecies is that we don't know how far the prophecies go. Is Parson Fated to croak Charlie? Is Parson Fated to defeat Charlie? Is Parson Fated to be capable of defeating Charlie given a chance? Or something else?


We have seen three basic kinds of Predictamancy :
1 ) Short, direct statements like the three you mentioned. These are always true.
2 ) Wishy-washy timey-wimey hand-waving that may or may not be magic, but just someone talking and manipulating. See Janis before GK conquers Jetstone.
3 ) In-battle Prediction of when to dodge and which shots to fire. These were very effective, and always hit, and always dodged, in the Hoffaton fight.

Unfortunately, the audience and non-Predictamancer characters have no way of distinguishing the first two. We've just got some Predictamancers saying "I Predict it". Janis may be the final boss after all, because she's been manipulating things since before any of this.
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:10 pm

Lilwik is right in that we have never seen a prediction misinterpreted do to wording. They have been vague, and often useless, but never misinterpreted.

For Parson being fated to kill Charlie, I do not think there has ever been any proof of that. The closest might have been during the thinkamacer update where Issac said something about involving Parson against Charlie was inevitable. I do believe that Parson being fated to kill Charlie is true, mostly because of the extreme ends Charlie went through to try to put Parson into an inescapable death trap. But Charlie did not seem that afraid of Parson in book 1. So the fate may have been assigned to him between books, or Charlie only found about it in between. Perhaps fate was against Parson in book 1, as some sort of test.

Who will Tramenis new warlord be. I do not know. I do not think it will be Jillian because I do not think she will lose FAQ. Ansom is an interesting possibility. I do not like the idea of it being another summoned war lord either.
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby CelebrenIthil » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:44 pm

Wowie I don't know why this is happening but you guiiiises
*warm fuzzies* (っ●´‿`●ς)ゞ

0beron wrote:Celeb...I have always liked you, for your superb avatar (second only to my own) and your adorable yet clever dwagon names, but that post really sealed the deal :p

Ubuu thank you!
I always liked you too, Zeroberon hee ❤ It's always a delight to read your interventions and debates with the other regulars

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Oh no, not you too? Why are you so nice? ヽ(;▽;)ノ
Thank you, but really, being anywhere close to not-terrible at discussion requires that one actually, you know, discusses... Aaaand as you can see if you take my forum join date and posts number, and make the math...
Really, the fact this is my third post in a relatively short amount of time is pretty much a statistical outlier.
And I guess I should stop it there because...

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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby 0beron » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:52 pm

The problem with Predictions is that we have rarely been given exact wording/seen what the caster sees in order to make one. Sure the 3 Predictions listed came true....but those all fulfilled the STATED portion, or more specifically, the portion stated by the Predictamancer in question. In Parson's case, we have had at least a 1-step game of telephone. The Thinkamancers are the one who seem to believe he is Fated, so here the wording will be important to hear precisely because of those different possibilities Lilwik listed at the end of his post.
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby Lipkin » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:47 am

Which is why I suspect Parson will be very interested to know the exact words.
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby bladestorm » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:27 am

TheChaplin wrote:
Fcannon wrote: SPW, as far as we've seen, is explicitly a tool Fate has used to try to off Charlie.


I'm sorry, could you bring me up to speed here. Peeps cite this so frequently on this forum it seems like it is taken for gospel. As far as I have read Parson is only believed by some casters to be "Fated" to kill Charlie; casters who even in their own community can't agree on what "Fate" is.

They can't be sure of it. Why should we?

I seems to me a disservice to logic, to use characters' beliefs in order to interpret the cosmic rules of the fiction. To say "Fate" is a literary Titan with an agenda and a chip on its shoulder sounds a bit much. SPW is a tool to be sure... by casters initiating their own agenda.

SPW doesn't apply just to Parson. Judy was also a product of a SPW, explicitly to kill the Wizard.
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby Lipkin » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:44 am

bladestorm wrote:
TheChaplin wrote:
Fcannon wrote: SPW, as far as we've seen, is explicitly a tool Fate has used to try to off Charlie.


I'm sorry, could you bring me up to speed here. Peeps cite this so frequently on this forum it seems like it is taken for gospel. As far as I have read Parson is only believed by some casters to be "Fated" to kill Charlie; casters who even in their own community can't agree on what "Fate" is.

They can't be sure of it. Why should we?

I seems to me a disservice to logic, to use characters' beliefs in order to interpret the cosmic rules of the fiction. To say "Fate" is a literary Titan with an agenda and a chip on its shoulder sounds a bit much. SPW is a tool to be sure... by casters initiating their own agenda.

SPW doesn't apply just to Parson. Judy was also a product of a SPW, explicitly to kill the Wizard.

Judy was summoned to kill the witch sisters.
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Re: Epilogue 22 - The King of Jetstone's Diary

Postby Lilwik » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:31 am

Lipkin wrote:Which is why I suspect Parson will be very interested to know the exact words.
Parson doesn't seem to be interested. He finally got to talk to the Great Minds in private and it was as if he'd completely forgotten about the prophecies. In retrospect it makes a lot of sense that a perfect warlord should prioritize learning the capabilities and weaknesses of his enemies before anything else. I expect that he's right about that, since I guess that the prophecies are all vague descriptions of how great Parson is going be at winning all the battles that the Magic Kingdom needs him to win, but having no useful details. He may as well just let them happen when they happen.
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