Grand Strategy

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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:42 am

...I literally just said that one post above yours.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:26 am

Woah, my bad I totally misread what you said, I got the tense jumbled up in my head because it was worded a bit confusingly. So....not sure if you realize it buuuuuut we actually agree. I've been trying to make the point that GK can't bring all of their bonuses to bear in every single fight, only the big ones. And the RCC has actually matched their bonus before and then been winning due to the numbers advantage. So if the RCC can replicate this and have a numbers advantage, they stand a better chance of winning.

(Heck, in the Courtyard Press GK might have actually even had a BIGGER bonus than the RCC because I think it's implied that Wanda's bonus to Uncroaked is actually better than Ansom's bonus to normal troops, and yet they were sill losing. But that's just my interpretation of it, don't believe it's ever been explicitly stated.)

Also Sizemore said something on Page 111 that demonstrates my point "With these numbers, maybe no plan can work." Numbers aren't everything, but if the ratios are overwhelming enough you get in trouble. To think of it directly in the mathematical terms, 2 units x a +8 bonus = "16 power".....but 1+1+1+1..etc can still equal 16 too.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:39 pm

Right. Ok. I see the point we disagree on now, I think, is whether or not GK can really bring all it's bonuses to bear. They have the dwagon relay, and now they have a Dollamancer for golem mounts too. I still think that the advantage from the hats and what few Dollamancy items they have is a better investment of the Dollamancers finite juice, rather than multiplying their army size. The dwagons give GK more "reach" than the clone army will have, so GK can just kite around them and try to decapitate the side by targeting Trem himself. From TREMS perspective (not using OOC information) trying to fight a guerilla war with smaller, more elite forces to target the relays, soft cities, and high profile units seems like better investment choices. In my mind, it doesn't matter if they decrypt a few warlords (whose dittoed bonuses, specials, and equipment will all fade by next turn anyway) if you just took out a member of the Great Minds and Jack again. Warlords are cheap, master Fools and Thinkers are not. Plus, and this is what makes it so valuable in my mind, you can't always guarantee that you will have Lloyd right where you want him to defend, but you can ALWAYS transfer the items to redistribute the boosts. Where as it seems you want to bring roughly equivalent boosted forces to bear in greater numbers against the enemy in order to win through overwhelming force on the battle field or in counter attacks, which I think has an actual name in real life military history and terminology (which escapes me at the moment and I'm too busy to look it up right now ;) .) Because crushing them head on with out them recouping losses is a net gain for you. That's, I think, where our disagreement is.

TLDR; In other words, it sounds like you want to invest your juice in creating a military hammer to push back against the enemy with sudden bursts of power , where as I want to spread out and become fluid, mobile, and adaptable in order to avoid assassination and undermine GKs main advantages of reach and magic. Does this seem correct?
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Lamech » Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:19 pm

In my mind, it doesn't matter if they decrypt a few warlords (whose dittoed bonuses, specials, and equipment will all fade by next turn anyway) if you just took out a member of the Great Minds and Jack again.
How is that going to work? No way Loyd is strong enough to create an army that can beat GKs. Sure they can hurt GK, unlike an infantry press, but the dittomancer can't create GK beating armies. Worse the great minds can see you. Lookamancy says hi!
Plus, and this is what makes it so valuable in my mind, you can't always guarantee that you will have Lloyd right where you want him to defend, but you can ALWAYS transfer the items to redistribute the boosts.
A blaster? Okay a handful of blasters? That's not going to cut it. Worse Parson can do the same. Hat's are too common. GK has too much cash. Rands and shmuckers. And Parson has links. He actually has a dollamancer. His toys are better. Also as far as we know Ace's armoury has fallen to GK other than two specific toys. Yeah, it will allow you to use the blaster (or anything else you buy) without risking it falling to GK.

The clone troops are nice. You can use relay trickery to dump Loyd's whole load of juice to hurt GK.

Here is the thing though: It means you aren't rebuilding. What happens if GK drops a hundred dragons on you? What happens when the Great Minds find you? Worse GK still has living units. They send those out to fight your attackers, collect some levels and xp. The fallen decrypt and go on garrison duty. GK still builds its forces. And GK forces will be in a city. I truly doubt Loyd is powerful enough to inflict the needed causalities on the GK forces.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Lilwik » Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:27 pm

Lamech wrote:No way Lloyd is strong enough to create an army that can beat GKs.
We don't really know much about Dittomancy. You might be right, judging by how long it took for Lloyd to duplicate the king. If he has to do that for every single unit, one at a time, then surely he would run out of hours in a turn and juice far before he could create a clone army. And the fact that we've never heard anything about Jetstone using clone armies supports that. On the other hand, Wanda has mass-uncroaking spells that can create a whole army of low-quality uncroaked, so we know that spells of that sort do exist in at least one other discipline. Perhaps Lloyd or a more experienced Dittomancer could be capable of mass-duplicating an army of low-quality clones.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:21 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:TLDR; In other words, it sounds like you want to invest your juice in creating a military hammer to push back against the enemy with sudden bursts of power , where as I want to spread out and become fluid, mobile, and adaptable in order to avoid assassination and undermine GKs main advantages of reach and magic. Does this seem correct?
Yes that's correct, with one change of semantics. I wouldn't make a hammer to push back against the bulk of GK...I'd make a hammer to smash their limbs with. Hit them where Wanda isn't, and whittle them down. Which is why I want to point out one key weakness of GK that you failed to account for, one which makes my strategy seem more advantageous. The Dwagon relay only works when GK is on-turn. That's not very helpful if Jetstone is stealing one of their cities while Gk is off-turn and Wanda is a hundred hexes away.

And for the record, I feel that your strategy works well also, I just feel that mine is what Tram is more likely to actually pick. Jetstone needs cities, badly, because they need income and more unit-popping power. If Tram is really clever in fact, he will make it a priority to capture some GK cities so he can pop Dwagons too.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Shai_hulud » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:06 am

Lamech wrote:A blaster? Okay a handful of blasters? That's not going to cut it. Worse Parson can do the same. Hat's are too common. GK has too much cash. Rands and shmuckers. And Parson has links. He actually has a dollamancer. His toys are better.
So... you're saying that because the USA has better guns then you, you wouldn't use an AK-47 because fuck it?

Lamech wrote:Here is the thing though: It means you aren't rebuilding.
Rebuilding... what? What is it you're investing this juice in? It's not like Lloyd's a Turnamncer, where we have to choose between turning enemies in battle, speeding production, or building trains. So far we've only seen him double things. Temp buffs/items and temp troops. There's no opportunity cost. I'm not saying he can't do more, but we can't make a plan to invest that resource in anything else from our perspective. So not spending it on either of those is a wasted resource.

---

0beron wrote:That's not very helpful if Jetstone is stealing one of their cities while Gk is off-turn and Wanda is a hundred hexes away.
And then they just MotoRoyal Trem's current location.

0beron wrote:Jetstone needs cities, badly, because they need income and more unit-popping power.
When Prince Ansom fell, Ossomer's inclination was to pop infantry, a Jetstonian tradition which served us well against Haggar. But those troops we popped are the enemy's now, arrayed against us.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby 0beron » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:42 am

Well decapitation against Trem is always a concern, regardless of the strategy that is a weakness of Erfworld in general. In fact, GK is three times as susceptible to that. Croak Stanley, side ends. Croak Wanda, no more Decrypted (at least no new ones at minimum), kill Parson and they lose their strategy as well as break Wanda's confidence and shatter her vision. So in the "vulnerable assets" department, GK has a higher liability.

And I never said they need Infantry popping power....I said they need UNIT popping power. Unipegitaurs, Knights and Gumps. Dwagons and Twolls too if they can score GK cities. They pop superior unit types that matter. The ditto'd infantry are just to get those cities in the first place and defend them against weak counterstrikes. If GK's main army shows up to try and take them back, you evacuate to deprive them the chance to get bodies, or you marshal those superior units you have been popping for a big stand.
Last edited by 0beron on Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby 0beron » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:45 am

Shai_hulud wrote:So... you're saying that because the USA has better guns then you, you wouldn't use an AK-47 because fuck it?
Also, that is not what Lamech said. He said that it's not gonna cut it. You can use it cus it's the best you've got....but Parson's casters will one-up it, so it's not gonna be your magic bullet advantage.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby TheChaplin » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:26 am

Are you sure GK cities can pop dwagons? I was under the impression no city could, and they had to be captured at great risk to your forces (unless you have the hammer).
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Lipkin » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:52 am

TheChaplin wrote:Are you sure GK cities can pop dwagons? I was under the impression no city could, and they had to be captured at great risk to your forces (unless you have the hammer).

Nope, GK can pop Dwagons, it just takes a long time.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby wih » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:08 am

It's their top tier pop. Requires either level 4 or 5, IIRC.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Shai_hulud » Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:25 pm

Book 2 Text Update 2
Warlord Ansom and Lady Firebaugh had taken to razing cities which produced less useful unit types, and he would fly out by dwagon relay and rebuild on the ruins. This created a city that popped the same kinds of units the capital did: infantry and twolls for a Level One, plus spidews and warlords for a Level Two, and dwagons for a Level Three or more.


0beron wrote:so it's not gonna be your magic bullet advantage.
I'm not looking for a magic bullet. I've yet to play a strategy game that has them. I'm just trying to determine what the optimal expenditure of resources is to achieve Trem's goal given what information we know he has.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby 0beron » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:04 pm

Right, so Lamech was making the point that perhaps blasters are NOT the best use of resources, given that Tram knows Parson could make better ones. It's a trade-off he will have to consider.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Shai_hulud » Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:03 pm

It seemed like he was saying there was no advantage in being able to grant ranged attacks and flight to a normally homogenous army, on the grounds that the enemy can do it better. When taken with other things he said about the ineffectiveness of Dittoed infantry (at least when compared to focusing on rebuilding instead) and him not giving a clear alternative investment or strategy, I felt the need to point out that granting the buffs didn't actually cost anything. I was only pointing out that not using an available ranged attack, just because the enemy has a better one, doesn't make much tactical sense. In Starcraft dragoons are better than marines, but you still use marines because that's what you've got. And what you've got, while shit, is still something. So if in Trem's position, I would use the shitty Dittoed guns (or dittoed anything for that matter) because it's still not nothing. That's all I was saying.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby 0beron » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:14 pm

Well Lloyd can do a third thing, which is double bonuses/effectiveness. So It's possible spending all his juice on that is in fact better.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Lamech » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:38 am

Making dupes of items is probably a useful tactic. It can reduce the advantage GK will have with items. But its not a winning tactic by itself.
I felt the need to point out that granting the buffs didn't actually cost anything.

Lloyd can almost certainly make scrolls, and he can almost certainly charge the tower. Furthermore Dittomancers CAN boost production.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-08.jpg
Parson wanted to use one in his self-sufficiency hack. He can probably make some sort of other item as well.
The ditto'd units and equipment aren't free. Having Lloyd spend his juice on harassing GK means he can't spend his juice on building up forces, and items. It may even outright backfire and just end up feeding GK xp, while only converting units to decrypted units.

Also IIRC, the Jetpack may not be able to actually work on infantry.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-18.png
Ace called out "commander unit". Nothing about non-commanders flying.

Items through hats is certainly a cool move, and dittoing items might come in handy. But it has a cost and it won't carry the day. At best it will mitigate the damage Ace can do. The problem is at the end of book one they didn't have Ace, and they didn't need to use the dittomancer to mitigate Ace.

To be fair, the RCC is in a terrible position. Yes, they dealt GK a strong blow. But... compare to the end of book one. GK is much, much better off. The RCC is much, much worse off. The only side that hasn't gotten shredded is Jillian.I think that any Grand Strategy will need to revolve around her, not Jetstone, or TV. For crying out loud, TV may not even survive without outside intervention.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:27 pm

0beron wrote:Well Lloyd can do a third thing, which is double bonuses/effectiveness. So It's possible spending all his juice on that is in fact better.
Yes, and I really should have included that (like double chief warlords leadership) in the first post.

Lamech wrote: Lloyd can almost certainly make scrolls, and he can almost certainly charge the tower.
Scrolls... that do exactly what he would be doing if he wasn't making scrolls. At least charging the tower might be useful to trap them like Carpool's been doing.

Lamech wrote:Furthermore Dittomancers CAN boost production.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-08.jpg
Parson wanted to use one in his self-sufficiency hack.
This might not actually work. Clones don't leave corpses.

Lamech wrote:Also IIRC, the Jetpack may not be able to actually work on infantry.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-18.png
Ace called out "commander unit". Nothing about non-commanders flying.
True, and 0beron and I already discussed that above.

Lamech wrote:To be fair, the RCC is in a terrible position. Yes, they dealt GK a strong blow. But... compare to the end of book one. GK is much, much better off. The RCC is much, much worse off. The only side that hasn't gotten shredded is Jillian.I think that any Grand Strategy will need to revolve around her, not Jetstone, or TV. For crying out loud, TV may not even survive without outside intervention.
Well yes, pooling the entire coalitions magical assets is probably the right thing for the coalition, but we're not talking about what they should do if they weren't a bunch of backstabbing morons, we're discussing what Jetstone should do with it's own assets to survive. It's not like anyone else in the coalition is actually reliable or trustworthy after all.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Lamech » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:26 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Well yes, pooling the entire coalitions magical assets is probably the right thing for the coalition, but we're not talking about what they should do if they weren't a bunch of backstabbing morons, we're discussing what Jetstone should do with it's own assets to survive. It's not like anyone else in the coalition is actually reliable or trustworthy after all.
If it wants to survive it should sue for peace. They should try very hard to not get noticed and not die in the near future. Really their best hope right now is someone saving their ass. If it does come down to needing to save themselves...

Shai_hulud wrote:Scrolls... that do exactly what he would be doing if he wasn't making scrolls. At least charging the tower might be useful to trap them like Carpool's been doing.
Scrolls can be saved for a burst. Depending on the numbers half a dozen units hitting a GK city every turn may fail to do sufficient damage to matter or even do anything other than feed GK xp. However if he can store up one unit a turn it might swing a key battle. If you've played many RTS's I'm sure you've encountered this. Sending in units one at a time means they die only getting one shot off. Sending in a swarm means they average many shots each and can be much more effective. This can be an even bigger deal when your opponent can level off of you.

Also I'm going to note something: The dittomancer cast one duplication spell. He duped Stanley. And... that's it. He didn't dupe Tram. He didn't dupe a bunch on infantry. In the battle for their side he didn't seem to have enough juice to make more than one duplicate.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby wih » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:35 am

Lamech wrote:Also I'm going to note something: The dittomancer cast one duplication spell. He duped Stanley. And... that's it. He didn't dupe Tram. He didn't dupe a bunch on infantry. In the battle for their side he didn't seem to have enough juice to make more than one duplicate.


Do we know when Juice replenishs? Assuming overnight rather than at the start of the turn. Remember he quadrupled all the arrows at the beginning of the day to flush out the flashmob attack, and that could have taken a lot of juice.
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