Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:44 pm

No, the term you are looking for would be "bad debate form" or perhaps "illogical", if it were even a true accusation across the board (and it is for some posters here but certainly not everyone opposing you). It's not at all "dickish" though. You however, are simply digging your hole deeper with this rediculous and immature behavior. #sorrynotsorry
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:45 pm

Lipkin wrote:
Werebiscuit wrote:Still not sure about kingworld myself but I think Lamech may have the answer to the "two turns worth of juice" conundrum [...]
Lamech wrote:Vanna was on top of a tower adding that boost.


[...]and consequently provide the limitation that 2 turns of juice can only be spent at a tower that you've previously charged.
meaning kingworld is a tower only spell... not as limiting as volcano only but certainly not useable in anything but city defence.

That is a good theory. The pieces fit.
Lipkin will grasp at any straw, he doesn't even need to give it rational thought.

Werebiscuit, Vanna was either hired by Jillian or hired by Charlie. She was not hired by Jetstone. She was not shown to be casting, which in all prior cases has had either verbal or visual indications, or both. Are you really suggesting that she was able to draw upon the tower charge of an ally just by standing on that tower? That Slately would have permitted that without knowing any details, if it is even possible at all? Did you see his surprise that his turn had begun, which indicates that he had no idea what had just happened? And, Jillian gives Vanna specific instruction to cast Kingworld (*Pyui!*). If it had the limitation of needing multiple turns to cast then the end of that casting would be fixed by the beginning of that casting, and not something able to be simply ordered and then immediately carried out.

Sorry, but that's not a good theory. The pieces do not fit.
Last edited by Oberon on Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:47 pm

Zeroberon wrote:No, the term you are looking for would be "bad debate form" or perhaps "illogical", if it were even a true accusation across the board (and it is for some posters here but certainly not everyone opposing you). It's not at all "dickish" though. You however, are simply digging your hole deeper with this rediculous and immature behavior. #sorrynotsorry
I'm digging? Who started slinging their "dick" about first? That would be Lipkin. Since that accusation brings with it the implication that a forum ban is warranted, I believe that fighting fire with fire is quite fair.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:52 pm

Oberon wrote:[Vanna] was not shown to be casting, which in all prior cases has had either verbal or visual indications, or both.
um....wat? Did you even SEE the comic? What precisely would you call the conjuring of a giant game-board and the utterance of "Kingworld" if not a spellcast?
Also, I don't believe anyone is claiming it was neccessarily Spacerock's tower she pulled from, Charlie is (presumably) in a tower too, it coulda been him pulling Juice.

*Steps aside to watch the pile of dirt grow ever larger, tempted to ask how the weather is down in there* Enjoy your vacation.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby drachefly » Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:26 pm

One thing I do agree with Oberon here - Lipkin's allegation that the net wouldn't allow transporting an allied unit is rather dumb.

The rest, ugh.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:36 pm

drachefly wrote:One thing I do agree with Oberon here - Lipkin's allegation that the net wouldn't allow transporting an allied unit is rather dumb.
Was that really his implication...? I thought he was suggesting that a caster would refuse to be subjected to a mechanic that functionally captures them. Sure it could WORK (if the Archons are indeed capable of carrying it) but the caster might not consent to it.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:12 pm

0beron wrote:
drachefly wrote:One thing I do agree with Oberon here - Lipkin's allegation that the net wouldn't allow transporting an allied unit is rather dumb.
Was that really his implication...? I thought he was suggesting that a caster would refuse to be subjected to a mechanic that functionally captures them. Sure it could WORK (if the Archons are indeed capable of carrying it) but the caster might not consent to it.

It's an exploit, and it would probably work. But such an exploit is not something non-Parson people would come up with or try. It's certainly an uncommon tactic.

Oberon wrote:
Zeroberon wrote:No, the term you are looking for would be "bad debate form" or perhaps "illogical", if it were even a true accusation across the board (and it is for some posters here but certainly not everyone opposing you). It's not at all "dickish" though. You however, are simply digging your hole deeper with this rediculous and immature behavior. #sorrynotsorry
I'm digging? Who started slinging their "dick" about first? That would be Lipkin. Since that accusation brings with it the implication that a forum ban is warranted, I believe that fighting fire with fire is quite fair.

You were being intentionally childish, mocking me personally, and are continuing with behavior that others have said bothers them. That's pretty straight forward trolling. So yeah, you were being a dick.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:23 pm

Lipkin wrote:[Carrying a Caster by net is] an exploit, and it would probably work. But such an exploit is not something non-Parson people would come up with or try. It's certainly an uncommon tactic.
Well Charlie already DID think of using it, with Parson as an escape method towards the end of Book 1. Since Parson didn't accpet the offer, we don't know whether the Archons were actually capable of carrying another unit, much less a Heavy, but Charlie did think to try it.
Unless you mean the distinction that Parson wasn't an ally and the Caster would be. In which case I'd point out that Charlie wanted to get Parson as an ally, so Charlie was clearly in the "exploit this mechanic" mindset.

Unrelated note, nice summary/explanation of Ohberon's behavior. I would also add in that cursing (ie STFU) is generally frowned upon in my understanding. Not sure I've ever seen it written as a formal rule, but I hardly ever see folks swear here, and after all the comic is/was censored too.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:31 pm

0beron wrote:
Lipkin wrote:[Carrying a Caster by net is] an exploit, and it would probably work. But such an exploit is not something non-Parson people would come up with or try. It's certainly an uncommon tactic.
Well Charlie already DID think of using it, with Parson as an escape method towards the end of Book 1. Since Parson didn't accpet the offer, we don't know whether the Archons were actually capable of carrying another unit, much less a Heavy, but Charlie did think to try it.
Unless you mean the distinction that Parson wasn't an ally and the Caster would be. In which case I'd point out that Charlie wanted to get Parson as an ally, so Charlie was clearly in the "exploit this mechanic" mindset.

Unrelated note, nice summary/explanation of Ohberon's behavior. I would also add in that cursing (ie STFU) is generally frowned upon in my understanding. Not sure I've ever seen it written as a formal rule, but I hardly ever see folks swear here, and after all the comic is/was censored too.

I think it's ambiguous as to whether Parson saw the net or not. The way I read the scene, Charlie was trying to double cross Parson, and Parson was to smart for that. I think Charlie meant to actually capture Parson, not have Parson willingly enter the net. I could be wrong, and if anyone besides Parson were going to think outside the box, it would be Charlie. I think any caster, who are the most sought after targets of capture, would be hesitant to willingly let themselves be captured for a job. Especially a barbarian who wouldn't have a side to run back to.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Lipkin wrote:I think any caster, who are the most sought after targets of capture, would be hesitant to willingly let themselves be captured for a job. Especially a barbarian who wouldn't have a side to run back to.
Totally agree. The limitation in such an exploit would be interpersonal rather than mechanical.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby spriteless » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:25 am

Oberon wrote:If [Kingworld *spits*] had the limitation of needing multiple turns to cast then the end of that casting would be fixed by the beginning of that casting, and not something able to be simply ordered and then immediately carried out.

Sorry, but that's not a good theory. The pieces do not fit.

That is just not true. Plenty of games have a mechanic where casting takes a lot of time, but a spell can hang with just a little left to complete and fire it off. That is the in-universe explanation for wizards in D&D 3.x, it is the whole point of this magic card, it is the best way to surprise a fellow witch with your power in Mage: The Awakening, and it is the only way to use most spells discretely in Mage: The Ascension. (All of these are from 2 companies, but they're bigguns that are oft-imated to the point that when they imitate people think they did it first). In Stupidworld there is strict amount of time to reach a threshold of power increasing exponentially before things go FOOM, but this is a turn based game, with events triggered by a commander's will, or which can be figured with arithmetic (and discrete math for the dice).

So, to figure out how costly it should be, we can compare it to other, similar options. It is like costing a spell in D&D3.x or Mage! It costs more than just storing juice in a tower, since the casters can't do anything else during that time, so it should be more powerful than shooting the amount of juice it costs from a tower. Vanna said 'basically two turns worth of juice,' so that is almost 2 turns worth of juice. The only things more costly than 2 discipline links all involve artifacts or Titans, so I don't know what is more costly than it to say it should be less powerful than. ...
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:56 am

Zeroberon wrote:m....wat? Did you even SEE the comic? What precisely would you call the conjuring of a giant game-board and the utterance of "Kingworld" if not a spellcast?
M....wat? Did you even SEE the comic? Would you precisely call the giant game-board and the utterance of "Kingworld" (*Ptui!*) a two turn spell cast?

Where was the prior turn casting even hinted at? Yeah, it wasn't. Those who jump aboard the "Two turn casting, such a huge disadvantage!" bandwagon are just inventing shit, as usual.

Zeroberon wrote:Also, I don't believe anyone is claiming it was neccessarily Spacerock's tower she pulled from, Charlie is (presumably) in a tower too, it coulda been him pulling Juice.
Sweet! Yet another secret power for Charlie! And you are seriously on the side of Kingworld (*Ptui!*) not being overpowered? Seriously?


Zeroberon wrote:*Steps aside to watch the pile of dirt grow ever larger, tempted to ask how the weather is down in there* Enjoy your vacation.
Don''t step in your own shit pile. It is higher and has far, far less support than my own position.

*SPLAT* Ooowww, what did you step in? It looks like your own unsupported and baseless piles of crap. You might want to scrape that off with a bit of logic and fact, if you can manage to muster such to support your position.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:19 am

spriteless wrote:That is just not true. Plenty of games have a mechanic where casting takes a lot of time, but a spell can hang with just a little left to complete and fire it off. That is the in-universe explanation for wizards in D&D 3.x, it is the whole point of this magic card, it is the best way to surprise a fellow witch with your power in Mage: The Awakening, and it is the only way to use most spells discretely in Mage: The Ascension. (All of these are from 2 companies, but they're bigguns that are oft-imated to the point that when they imitate people think they did it first). In Stupidworld there is strict amount of time to reach a threshold of power increasing exponentially before things go FOOM, but this is a turn based game, with events triggered by a commander's will, or which can be figured with arithmetic (and discrete math for the dice).
Jesus H Christ, coming back for the Epiphany and whistling a tune through the hole in his palm! Erfworld is not D&D, or Mage: The Awakening, or Magic: The Gathering, any other setting. You cannot drag your preconceptions based upon other settings into Erfworld and expect them to have any validity! So, stop! Hammer time! That shit is just pointless. It has zero value. I could cite how Pokemon abilities or Star Wars abilities mean that Erfworld must act in a certain way all day long, and it would be just as pointless. So let's just stop this shit now. It has zero value.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lilwik » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:41 am

Oberon wrote:Where was the prior turn casting even hinted at?
That was hinted at in Book 2, Page 22. It's just a hint, hardly conclusive, but there doesn't seem to be a more likely theory.

There is also Book 2, Text 18 where it's said that Charlie has been out of communication "since yesterday." Again, that's hardly conclusive, but it's certainly hinting at something.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:57 am

Lilwik wrote:
Oberon wrote:Where was the prior turn casting even hinted at?
That was hinted at in Book 2, Page 22. It's just a hint, hardly conclusive, but there doesn't seem to be a more likely theory.

There is also Book 2, Text 18 where it's said that Charlie has been out of communication "since yesterday." Again, that's hardly conclusive, but it's certainly hinting at something.


I appreciate you citing the comic rather than inventing bullshit. I will say that I don't understand your first link, it does not appear to me to discuss the topic. Vanna never mentioned casting across turns, did she? She said something about using two turns juice, but that vase so vague that we can't really know exactly what she meant.

I think that it's a given that Kingworld (*Ptui!*) causes Charlie to lose his otherwise effortless thinkamancy for the single turn that he has to concentrate on Kingworld (*Ptui!*). This is perhaps the only known drawback of Kingworld (*Ptui!*), other than the "requires a turnamancer" and "requires the enemy be in the same battle space" limitations that we already knew. It's interesting that no arguments for Kingworld (*Ptui!*) previously have called upon this unimpeachable drawback. Funny, that. It's not a terrible cost, but it is a cost.

One final point...

You took pains to cite how the archons were out of communications with Charlie during Kingworld (*Ptui!*). As if this was a rare occurrence, and Kingworld (*Ptui!*) was a rare occurrence. Well, no. Here's what was actually [url="http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-03-19.png"]said[/url]:
Since yesterday, communications through the Arkendish were blacked out, which always put everyone in a bad mood.


Which always put everyone in a bad mood. So, not a unique event, right? Something that happens often enough that they have a standardized response to it, in fact.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Werebiscuit » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:03 am

Oberon wrote:Werebiscuit, Vanna was either hired by Jillian or hired by Charlie. She was not hired by Jetstone.


granted. it's my belief that she was hired by Jillian but I have no proof of that either.

Oberon wrote: She was not shown to be casting, which in all prior cases has had either verbal or visual indications, or both. Are you really suggesting that she was able to draw upon the tower charge of an ally just by standing on that tower?


She was shown to be in a link see both pages 22 panel 9 and text 14 prior to the "cast" and apres cast... links are usually used for casting. So i'm not sure how you can attest she wasn't casting... the hints are there. I'm not sure how else one would draw on the charge of a tower other than by standing on it...so yes.. that's what im suggesting. All other tower casts shown in the comic had the caster on the tower. Can you cite proof the she can't ?... that would be a theory breaker.

Oberon wrote:That Slately would have permitted that without knowing any details,

She is at very least an ally and we have no indication as yet that allies can't be granted use of the tower. Granted we weren't shown Slatelys accquiesecence to the spell so there is at least that.

Oberon wrote: if it is even possible at all? Did you see his surprise that his turn had begun, which indicates that he had no idea what had just happened?

The possibility is up for debate..hence the theory. Slately's surprise is due to him not knowing what kingworld does... which implies he was a mere pawn in the casting and not party to the full details. He hasn't been shown to be pawned prior to kingworld ( yeah i'll use the "Ptui" too just because it's you i'm replying to)...but we now know from other sources he can be pawned. I wonder what he thought Vanna was there to do, if not cast ? He certainly didn't object to her being on the tower as was his perogative if he's trying to protect Jetstone juice

Oberon wrote:And, Jillian gives Vanna specific instruction to cast Kingworld (*Pyui!*). If it had the limitation of needing multiple turns to cast then the end of that casting would be fixed by the beginning of that casting, and not something able to be simply ordered and then immediately carried out.


A multiple turn cast also implies the you have to use multiple turns to cast it.. Thus if you begin casting one turn and don't cast the next the spell is at best delayed..at worst wasted. I merely theorise that Jllians order was to culminate the spell by finishing the cast... we don't know if the spell would be delayed or wasted had she not have given the order but if it is a multiple cast spell then both possibilities are...erm..possible.

Oberon wrote:Sorry, but that's not a good theory. The pieces do not fit.


Granted it's not a perfect fit but it at least can fit the observed and known facts and gives an explanation for a previous conundrum.
It's a theory..its there to be shot down. However your objections have counters aboove
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Free Radical » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:35 am

Oberon wrote:Which always put everyone in a bad mood. So, not a unique event, right? Something that happens often enough that they have a standardized response to it, in fact.

I don't think it was intended to imply that that was a cost only to the Carny/Turnamancy/Arkendish link - the Arkendish being unusable for communication seems like it would be part of every tri-link Charlie used the dish for. The thinkamancers note it as one of the abilities of the dish, and mention that "Charlie frequently created new spells by hiring casters from the magic kingdom and linking with them".

The archons are used to it because Charlie does use tri-links regularly. It wouldn't be a great time for his communications to go down if they didn't have to, so it makes sense in the context of Vanna's "two turns of juice" to be a link with her rather than a link with some other caster who was never mentioned and didn't have any effect on the story.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:28 am

Oberon wrote:
Zeroberon wrote:Also, I don't believe anyone is claiming it was necessarily Spacerock's tower she pulled from, Charlie is (presumably) in a tower too, it coulda been him pulling Juice.
Sweet! Yet another secret power for Charlie!
....how is this OP or even new!? Casters in a link are a conjoined entity, all using their juice and skills collectively. So kindly explain to me how Charlie paying the bulk of the cost is so far-fetched and unique to only him. And if you could do so without the excessive cussing and childish tantrum behavior, that'd be fantastic.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Werebiscuit » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:56 am

Oh .. one other misrepresentation
Oberon wrote:And, Jillian gives Vanna specific instruction to cast Kingworld (*Pyui!*).

Those instructions aren't very specific, they're open to intepretation... and certainly don't fix the begining of the spell in any timeframe.

What Jillian actually says is
"turnamancer.... Let's do the timewarp"

no "let's cast"... or "begin casting"... ergo we don't know if it was an instruction to begin casting a spell as you seem to think or even to complete a two turn casting as I theorize. We can surmise that the instruction was to Vanna and it was to loose the spell effect but it's stretching it to say it makes it a one turn spell, granted it's also stretching it to make it a two-turn spell but what i'm saying is that it doesn't define it as one or the other apart from personal speculation.. Therefore it has no objective evidence to show as you seem to think.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby spriteless » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:29 pm

Oberon wrote:
spriteless wrote:stuff on other games with spells that can be cast and saved
Jesus H Christ, coming back for the Epiphany and whistling a tune through the hole in his palm! Erfworld is not D&D, or Mage: The Awakening, or Magic: The Gathering, any other setting. You cannot drag your preconceptions based upon other settings into Erfworld and expect them to have any validity! So, stop! Hammer time! That shit is just pointless. It has zero value. I could cite how Pokemon abilities or Star Wars abilities mean that Erfworld must act in a certain way all day long, and it would be just as pointless. So let's just stop this shit now. It has zero value.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeese. I was just pointing out that it was possible. There is precedent for it in games that Erfworld (the comic) takes inspiration from! I did not mean that Kinkworld was exacly like Seal of Fire, I meant it was possible it worked similar to it! Would it kill you to admit that a fan theory is possible (not necessary, but possible) instead of jumping down people's throats? Brainstorming is not zero value. I enjoy it. People enjoy it. It is no more pointless than reading Erfworld to begin with, and I'd appreciate it if you took your seriousness either all the way and left the fandom, or STOPPED CUSSING PEOPLE OUT FOR POSTING THEORIES!!!
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