Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lilwik » Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:07 am

Oberon wrote:They don't describe Jack casting spells at all...
It's not clear what you mean. Are you saying that the Foolamancy-like magic that we see in Episode 21, Episode 57, and Episode 62 is not actually Jack casting spells? Is there someone else you suspect of doing those things? To me it very much looks like Jack casting spells, but I am curious to hear alternate theories.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:41 am

New theory that is entirely unbased in comic evidence. Juice replenishes at the start of turn, right? So what if because the turn was prematurely brought on, Vanna's juice didn't replenish? That would mean that Kingworld didn't drain her juice, it just had a heavy price, and she didn't get to replenish after that.

No evidence to support this idea, and I'm not even saying I think it's right. Just tossing it out there.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby wih » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:02 am

Lipkin wrote:New theory that is entirely unbased in comic evidence. Juice replenishes at the start of turn, right? So what if because the turn was prematurely brought on, Vanna's juice didn't replenish? That would mean that Kingworld didn't drain her juice, it just had a heavy price, and she didn't get to replenish after that.

No evidence to support this idea, and I'm not even saying I think it's right. Just tossing it out there.


Only thing she can cast turn one, and no juice in turn two. That actually could work. Wonder if the "no charge juice" also would affect other casters on the side? Sure, Jillian only had her at the time, but that would be a pretty huge cost.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:10 am

wih wrote:
Lipkin wrote:New theory that is entirely unbased in comic evidence. Juice replenishes at the start of turn, right? So what if because the turn was prematurely brought on, Vanna's juice didn't replenish? That would mean that Kingworld didn't drain her juice, it just had a heavy price, and she didn't get to replenish after that.

No evidence to support this idea, and I'm not even saying I think it's right. Just tossing it out there.


Only thing she can cast turn one, and no juice in turn two. That actually could work. Wonder if the "no charge juice" also would affect other casters on the side? Sure, Jillian only had her at the time, but that would be a pretty huge cost.

It would be. Not that I think it needs a huge cost like that, especially since she apparently needed the tower's bonus.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby wih » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:47 am

She might be relatively low level for all we know. This trick might become too easy at higher levels and/or mastery.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:49 am

She would have to be extremely low level, what with Charlie being the polar opposite.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby wih » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:59 am

Lipkin wrote:She would have to be extremely low level, what with Charlie being the polar opposite.


Not sure how Charlie being high level would mean she would have to be low level - how does that fit?
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:33 am

wih wrote:
Lipkin wrote:She would have to be extremely low level, what with Charlie being the polar opposite.


Not sure how Charlie being high level would mean she would have to be low level - how does that fit?

In order for her to need the bonus to pull off the spell, she would need to be very low in level, because Charlie is very high. Assuming they pull equal weight in the casting.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Thydron » Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:27 am

Lipkin wrote:New theory that is entirely unbased in comic evidence. Juice replenishes at the start of turn, right? So what if because the turn was prematurely brought on, Vanna's juice didn't replenish? That would mean that Kingworld didn't drain her juice, it just had a heavy price, and she didn't get to replenish after that.

No evidence to support this idea, and I'm not even saying I think it's right. Just tossing it out there.


Doesn't really fit with her saying it cost two turns-worth of juice though.
If your idea was right, I'd have expected her to say something more along the lines of "I didn't get new juice this turn"
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:18 am

Thydron wrote:
Lipkin wrote:New theory that is entirely unbased in comic evidence. Juice replenishes at the start of turn, right? So what if because the turn was prematurely brought on, Vanna's juice didn't replenish? That would mean that Kingworld didn't drain her juice, it just had a heavy price, and she didn't get to replenish after that.

No evidence to support this idea, and I'm not even saying I think it's right. Just tossing it out there.


Doesn't really fit with her saying it cost two turns-worth of juice though.
If your idea was right, I'd have expected her to say something more along the lines of "I didn't get new juice this turn"

Nothing really fits with her saying it cost her two turns worth.

But she said that her juice was low, and that it had basically cost her two turns of juice. So she spends the majority of her juice on the spell, and because the spell works, it costs her her refill. The meaning of cost being twofold. Just trying to think outside the box.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby drachefly » Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:26 am

Lipkin wrote:Nothing really fits with her saying it cost her two turns worth.


If she almost had the new juice in her but it felt snatched away, that would.

I still think that casting over 2 turns fits.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:40 pm

drachefly wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Nothing really fits with her saying it cost her two turns worth.


If she almost had the new juice in her but it felt snatched away, that would.

I still think that casting over 2 turns fits.

I don't disagree. There might even be precedent. Didn't Jojo cast over Sylvia for multiple turns before sh made her recovery? Maybe to really break the rules of Erf, Carnies have to spend multiple turns?
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Sir Shadow » Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:48 pm

It was more like Jojo was casting a spell every turn, not one over multiple. Casting over multiple turns implies that there will be no effect until the end, whereas Jojo kept Sylvia alive.

There's no precedent for a 'casting time' of multiple turns in the comic. Vanna was talking about sheer Juice-cost in reply to a question about her current Juice levels, she was not referring to how long it took.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lilwik » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:33 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:It was more like Jojo was casting a spell every turn, not one over multiple. Casting over multiple turns implies that there will be no effect until the end, whereas Jojo kept Sylvia alive.
It's true that since Sylvia was incapacitated she should have died each day under normal rules, but apparently there are magical exceptions to that so it's impossible for us to know what Jojo might have been doing. Maybe he was just preventing her from croaking, or maybe he was doing something more. Maybe each day he was building up the powerful spell that seemed to still be affecting things all the way to Spacerock. Since it seems to be a very powerful spell, that wouldn't surprise me.

Sir Shadow wrote:There's no precedent for a 'casting time' of multiple turns in the comic. Vanna was talking about sheer Juice-cost in reply to a question about her current Juice levels, she was not referring to how long it took.
True, but the simplest way that she could have spent the juice of multiple turns is by doing it over multiple turns, and we know almost certainly that she'd been linked to Charlie for multiple turns (Book 2, Text 18). I doubt Charlie would spend all that time linked to Vanna just for fun; they were doing something.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Sir Shadow » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:17 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Sir Shadow wrote:It was more like Jojo was casting a spell every turn, not one over multiple. Casting over multiple turns implies that there will be no effect until the end, whereas Jojo kept Sylvia alive.
It's true that since Sylvia was incapacitated she should have died each day under normal rules, but apparently there are magical exceptions to that so it's impossible for us to know what Jojo might have been doing. Maybe he was just preventing her from croaking, or maybe he was doing something more. Maybe each day he was building up the powerful spell that seemed to still be affecting things all the way to Spacerock. Since it seems to be a very powerful spell, that wouldn't surprise me.
The text of the update contradicts that train of thought. Also, we don't know if he is what ultimately healed Sylvia. Jojo said he made a trade, who/what did he trade with and what did trade? We don't know; from what it seems he was doing his best to keep her in one piece each day until he got back to the capital... possibly where he had access to the MK and... /shrug
Lilwik wrote:
Sir Shadow wrote:There's no precedent for a 'casting time' of multiple turns in the comic. Vanna was talking about sheer Juice-cost in reply to a question about her current Juice levels, she was not referring to how long it took.
True, but the simplest way that she could have spent the juice of multiple turns is by doing it over multiple turns, and we know almost certainly that she'd been linked to Charlie for multiple turns (Book 2, Text 18). I doubt Charlie would spend all that time linked to Vanna just for fun; they were doing something.
As much as I hate to agree with Oberon, that text update does not confirm that Charlie was linked with Vanna. It's entirely possible his focus was elsewhere entirely, and if he was linked and casting a spell over time, he would likely have had to stay linked for the entire duration until it was cast.

She didn't spend the juice of multiple turns, she spent an amount equal to what she would have access to over two turns. The theory I stated before, that she was sharing Juice with Charlie is just as valid--if not more simple due to what we already know about the nature of Links.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lamech » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:00 pm

I'm gonna go back to the prep time of Kingworld. It might not seem like much, but it means that Charlie can't just link up to any caster to fire kingworld as needed, he needs to pick two casters before the turn start. Combine that with a need for enemies in your hex and you have a serious issue. Charlie can effectively "trap" a couple of hexes. The cost isn't huge, a turn of telecomm income, hiring a caster into the field and dish intel, but it sure is hell isn't something he can just do at will.

Not only that the trap isn't good for all situations. It worked well on the GK airforce, but what if they had gone in on the ground? They would have taken the outer wall zone, and then would have slapped down any incoming Jetstone forces. Or just set the garrison (well technically the stuff just around the garrison) and hope the garrison falls before they all burn to death. They float off when the city falls.

The biggest potential limitation is that most casters might not be willing to do a link-up while in the field. Note how Vanna would have personal reasons to help. Other casters might find the risk too high. What if an Archon had zapped Vanna in the middle of casting?

Anyway this neatly answers why he didn't do this before. He never had a chance. He never had the needed warning, and caster in range he could use. He probably won't use it again since a lookamancer or predictamancer will just warn Parson now that he's recruited them. Then Parson will just ignore the target trapped hexes and do damage elsewhere. Or Perfect Warlord through it. Again.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lilwik » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:00 am

You're right, I should have checked that page before posting. Technically it's possible that Sylvia has it wrong. She wasn't even a warlord at the time, and certainly not a caster, so she couldn't be counted on to understand what was being done to her, but she probably has it right. I expect Jojo explained it to her truthfully, even if he refused to go into details about the trade.

Sir Shadow wrote:As much as I hate to agree with Oberon, that text update does not confirm that Charlie was linked with Vanna. It's entirely possible his focus was elsewhere entirely, and if he was linked and casting a spell over time, he would likely have had to stay linked for the entire duration until it was cast.
You're right; it only confirms that Charlie was unavailable for a while, but I don't have any alternate theories for why he would have been unavailable. As a powerful Thinkamancer I'd expect him to be able to unlink himself without difficulty when necessary, and I'd expect him to be online at all times unless he were doing something like being in a link, so unless there is some other link that he might have been in, I've got to conclude that he was linked with Vanna.

Sir Shadow wrote:The theory I stated before, that she was sharing Juice with Charlie is just as valid--if not more simple due to what we already know about the nature of Links.
It's possible, but Jillian was asking specifically about Vanna's juice, so Vanna should have been talking about her own juice. It certainly doesn't prove anything, and Charlie being unavailable since yesterday doesn't prove anything, but together they seem very suggestive.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Justyn » Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:45 am

Oberon, 0beron, Lilwik, Lipkin: Keep it respectful, consider this a warning.
If I am acting as a mod, you will know it.
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