Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Sir Shadow » Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:45 pm

Thus far, the only people talking about 'world peace' are Ansom and the Hippiemancers.

Ansom hopes to achieve world piece by uniting all Sides under 1 allied banner, and as a Toolist, he believes this is the new 'Titanic mandate'. Royalty is obsolete and wielding the 'Tools is the new way to establish dominance. Obviously, as the side with two, they should be the one in charge.

The Hippiemancers seemingly hope to achieve world peace by using Parson to essential break Erfworld. How this is achieved or how they hope it'll happen is yet to be revealed precisely.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:30 pm

Didn't Ansom get annoyed in one of the Summer updates about Stanely always calling him back over the dwagon relay? And talking with him about strategy. Somehow I don't think that Stanely could not be on board or at least grudgingly approving of major points of the war. Like offering peace. It would be terribly out of character for Ansom to hide something like that. Now Stanley might only go along with it because he doesn't really understand stuff, or whatever, but I can't see any reasonable way for this to be some unilateral action by Ansom when Stanely would disapprove.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:33 pm

When Wanda made Ansom wait with the ground troops, Ansom said he would contact Stanley and tell him. Wanda said "no, you won't." and Ansom agreed. If Wanda didn't want Stanley to know, Ansom wouldn't tell him.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:06 am

Lipkin wrote:If Wanda didn't want Stanley to know, Ansom wouldn't tell him.
That's true. Is there any reason to believe that Wanda wouldn't want Stanley to know about the peace offer, or are we just talking about a highly unlikely thing that is technically possible? I don't see why Wanda would care about the peace offer at all. I would guess she'd prefer to croak and decrypt all of Spacerock and the peace offer was coming mostly from Ansom.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Tonot » Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:53 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:Thus far, the only people talking about 'world peace' are Ansom and the Hippiemancers.

Ansom hopes to achieve world piece by uniting all Sides under 1 allied banner, and as a Toolist, he believes this is the new 'Titanic mandate'. Royalty is obsolete and wielding the 'Tools is the new way to establish dominance. Obviously, as the side with two, they should be the one in charge.

The Hippiemancers seemingly hope to achieve world peace by using Parson to essential break Erfworld. How this is achieved or how they hope it'll happen is yet to be revealed precisely.



The problem with world peace, is the same problem that vegans et al don't consider when they talk about everyone stopping the gobbling up of domesticated animals.

If you get world peace, for stabbers OR for moo cows . . .

Who is paying for their feed?. Is Wanda going to?. NO, she's going to a) Subjugate the world b) set up execution squads c) kill in numbers that makes "world war as a way of life" look like a Kindergarten game . . . and d) . . . If you don't need stabbers, cause you got no-one to stab cause you rule everywhere . . . why you gunna waste the juice to mass decrypt them, and how you gunna pay for their organisation/housing/entertainment/suppression etc once you got'em ?. Be a lot easier to NOT decrypt them, and what is Wanda all about, caring for those beneath her?, not likely Jim lad.

It is all very well to say "World Peace" but whose gunna pay to run a peaceful world?.

Someone tell me how it could hope to last?. What is in it for the Lowly Stabber I asks you, Listen, strange women flyin' around on Dwagons, decryptin' with Arkenpliers is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical Necromantic ceremony.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:17 pm

A few issues to point out:
Tonot wrote:waste the juice to mass decrypt them
Decryption appears to be limitless. Wanda has mass-Decrypted with no show of Juice limitations. Much the same way that Charlie's Thinkamancy seems limited only by time, Wanda is only limited by the number of bodies she has access to.
Tonot wrote:how you gunna pay for their organisation/housing/entertainment/suppression etc?
Cities are kinda a thing...that provide much of that free of charge. Organization is automatic, housing is automatic, entertainment is unnecessary, and suppression is unneccesary because units are incapable of harming their own side.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby spriteless » Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:56 pm

When you put it like that Zero, Erfworld seems closer to peace than Stupidworld.
T'was a splendidly speedy defection.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:41 pm

Well yeah, because in many ways it is. Wanda's Decryption alone COULD sustain world peace under a single side, the problem is getting there in the first place. Wile attempting to conquer the world, the side has Wanda as a weakness, vulnerable to enemies. But once they do take over the whole world, no threat, and Wanda could infinitely sustain a side of Decrypted, keeping only herself and the Ruler (ideally with herself as Ruler to save cost) alive as the single unit drawing upkeep.
What keeps Erfworld violent is the need to earn schmuckers from war, and the forces that keep sides at a size that is sustainable economically. Remove that economic pressure, and Erfworld is quite peaceful. But removing that pressure is the hard part since Wanda is still the weak link rather than the ultimate authority.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby wih » Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:56 pm

There will still be random barbarians popping which could potentially, with the right fate/numbers attached, destabilise the side. And we don't yet know what allows decrypted to turn like Ossomer did - if it is proximity, Wanda can't be everywhere and you might have decrypted on the other side of Erf turning to their own sides from Wanda.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:07 pm

I'd dismiss the issue of turning. It's another weakness that forms a roadblock to world domination in the first place, but shouldn't exist under the unified side. Ossomer turned back because he had something to turn TO. He had memories and emotional attachments, strengthened by abuse from Wanda personally. In a post-domination world, everyone could be a GK-original. Splitting (as opposed to turning) has never been shown in the comic, and the clearest discussion of it (Jillian wishing to leave old FAQ in Book 0) focused on permission. So current evidence points to independently leaving the side as impossible.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:35 pm

0beron wrote:Splitting (as opposed to turning) has never been shown in the comic, and the clearest discussion of it (Jillian wishing to leave old FAQ in Book 0) focused on permission. So current evidence points to independently leaving the side as impossible.
"Impossible" is putting it too strongly. Jillian looked for permission, but she had good reason for it, since the alternative would be effectively disowning her father. Erfworlders may not be exactly human, but they are still people and not even the strongest Thinkamancy has total control, as explained in Book 1, Page 148. If it can be done with permission then there ought to be a way to do it without.

On the other hand, world peace under Wanda's rule doesn't need splitting to be impossible. Even if it is possible it would surely be very rare because they wouldn't be able to split off a side large enough to stand a chance in a war against the whole rest of Erfworld. The fact that it would be doomed to failure might mean it never happens at all.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Sir Shadow » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:58 pm

Ossomer was being tugged by some very strong moral and familial forces. If his brother and father were decrypted along with him, he likely would never have turned away from Wanda as they would have been in the same boat as him and not questioning or resentful of her actions.
Demon Lord Etna wrote:Looks like I have to resort to the politician's golden rule: "If they can't prove it, deny, deny, deny."
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:42 pm

The point is indeed moot because any individual who might split would be outnumbered 10-to-1 at best, and would be instantly dusted.
However on the topic of splitting in general (emphasis added):
Book 0, Episode 75 wrote:I’m gonna ask him to let me found a side.
The use of the word "let" shows that Banhammer holds the power. If it were merely a psychological/familiar matter, she would have "asked his blessing" or something of the sort. In fact, later on she goes further to say to Banhammer "Spin me off.", meaning it was an action HE needed to take. This language demonstrates a mechanical constraint.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby wih » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:49 pm

"Let" seems related to loyalty to me; Parson didn't need to ask Stanley to split and become barbarian when he was burning up in Spacerock, neither does anyone else, but that might be dependent on their loyalty.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:14 pm

Except that Parson didn't do that, sooooo no evidence. We know Parson knows very little about the rules, so him thinking that was an option is actually useless info.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby wih » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:15 pm

If it wasn't an option, Charlie would have called him out on it. Instead, he was just called out on not being able to take the city because of the other GK troops there. That's tacit approval of the idea.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:19 pm

0beron wrote:Except that Parson didn't do that, sooooo no evidence. We know Parson knows very little about the rules, so him thinking that was an option is actually useless info.

Parson knows a hell of a lot about the rules. Maybe even more than most commanders after all his crazy sims with Jack. Him not knowing much about the rules was far in the past. Nor did Charlie say "Lolwut?" He gave a reason why it was impractical for Parson. (GK units make taking the capital difficult.) It appears that commanders can barbarian themselves.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:40 pm

Or, Charlie was perfectly content to let Parson think whatever he pleases, wasting his time until he DIAF. Information is money, and Charlie gives nothing away for free.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby wih » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:59 pm

Charlie's actions indicate he would have preferred Parson to read the scroll rather than DIAF.
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Re: Epilogue 24 - Tramennis and Charlie

Postby Justyn » Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:45 am

Oberon, 0beron, Lilwik, Lipkin: Keep it respectful, consider this a warning.
If I am acting as a mod, you will know it.
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