Lord Crush - Part 1

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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby NYbear » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:05 pm

Lipkin wrote:I think as units level, their upkeep rises. So if they train up, but don't go out and conquest, eventually they will have a shortage of smuckers, as they have no new income coming in. I think it unlikely the smuckers produced by cities would be enough to support a standing army. Faq couldn't manage it, needing to send Jillian out on merc contracts, though that example is far from perfect due to the number of casters on the side.


True, but no one says they have to train and level up and therefore raise their upkeep (which of course leads to the being a soft target and easier to conquer - which is the downside). Although its possible just doing your daily responsibilities, even without additional "training" could cause you to level up slowly over time (we know this is the case for casters - since most of them level without being in battles).

Its just interesting to consider that if you didn't have to defend yourself against others, would it be possible to not train and therefore not level up; and to not pop more units, such that your sides upkeep does not exceed its smuckers/farm/mine production? Most likely not I suppose.

A very small side like Faq, if it didn't have so many expensive casters, might be able to pull it off...if it could find some way of guaranteeing that its neighbors wont just invade it. That's the tricky part. Its almost like peace on Erf would work if everyone was a small side, and everyone agreed to play by a non-agression treaty. Downside is the minute one guy breaks truce, they'd all break it (to train/fight for defense if not to conquer)
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby Jacinth and Rubies » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:14 pm

woah, woah, WOAH. King Scrofula wants to replace his son with Crush? crikey, this sitch is not going to end well.

But what I really want to know is: do Snookimonsters look like Snooki, or do they eat Snookis? And which answer's implications is more terrifying?
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby No one in particular » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:50 pm

Jacinth and Rubies wrote:woah, woah, WOAH. King Scrofula wants to replace his son with Crush? crikey, this sitch is not going to end well.

But what I really want to know is: do Snookimonsters look like Snooki, or do they eat Snookis? And which answer's implications is more terrifying?

Who said anything about replacing Axe? Scrofula just wants Crush to join his side.

I mean, here's a scenario that doesn't involve internal betrayal:
    Squashcourt wants to take out Firstpost.
    Crush had sent very nice letters to Scrofula in the past.
    Scrofula doesn't want Crush to disband when Firstpost is sacked.
    Ergo: Scrofula asks that Crush join Squashcourt.

Ooh! Or here's the total non-betrayal explanation:
    Crush had sent very nice letters to Scrofula in the past.
    Scrofula has no one he can talk to at court.
    Scrofula just wants a friend.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby Fcannon » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:06 pm

I wonder if Prince Axe was being kind of a douche on the way over because he knew his father's plans and was sulking, or if he didn't know and the fact that he acts that way is exactly why the king is MAKING those plans. Kind of a chicken/egg thing I guess.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby s-dub » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:12 pm

I am led to believe that Crush is going to be sent to war if he decides to turn. Why else would the clothes be too large for him unless they expect his signamancy to drastically change? (Although maybe they have a spell or item that will do the change.)
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby fehler » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:17 pm

This is a trade mission. What is there exactly to trade? All commodities pop at the beginning of every turn. I guess they could be trading units (maybe Squashcourt pops eyesaurs at a faster rate then Firstpost). But everything else is gems and schmuckers.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby The Pink Warlord » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:28 pm

It'll be intresting when we get a name we recognise in an update and can when and where this story is taking place.

And yeah, Trade Mission suggests a trade mechanic we haven't ben made aware of yet. But parson did talk about hypothetical farmer sides that could sell rations...
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby s-dub » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:33 pm

The could trade large magic items, caster services (helping each other add spells to towers, etc.), maybe certain delicacies or specialties. Remember that most sides seem to have a certain expenditure on luxuries.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby No one in particular » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:41 pm

fehler wrote:This is a trade mission. What is there exactly to trade? All commodities pop at the beginning of every turn. I guess they could be trading units (maybe Squashcourt pops eyesaurs at a faster rate then Firstpost). But everything else is gems and schmuckers.

Not all commodities pop equally.

Cities in desert hexes aren't going to pop pineapples or fish.
Cities in arctic hexes are going to pop different furs than ones in coastal hexes.

We even know that depending on what side built the city can affect what's popped there ("This created a city that popped the same kinds of units the capital did[...]")

Additionally, if one side pops units with the crafting special (like twolls) but another doesn't... then one side will have a lot of paper, furniture, and other luxury items that wouldn't normally pop.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby multilis » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:58 pm

On trade it could also be as simple as generic income increase for both sides if 2 sides trade, but if one side betrays the other then they get a short term looting of other sides trade, so trust is involved.

Or yes, it could be each side can produce some things cheaper than the other... rations, items, weapons for soldiers, etc.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby randomthought » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:16 pm

Wasn't something said about how Turnamancer's self-propelled vehicles were often traded?
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby No one in particular » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:27 pm

multilis wrote:On trade it could also be as simple as generic income increase for both sides if 2 sides trade, but if one side betrays the other then they get a short term looting of other sides trade, so trust is involved.

Or yes, it could be each side can produce some things cheaper than the other... rations, items, weapons for soldiers, etc.

Oh, man..! If Trade Agreements really are like non-military Alliances, and offer a lower, continuous income increase as opposed to the high-return, one-time boost of sacking... that would totally back up my theory that Erfworld was supposed to be about economic conflict, not physical.

Yes, yes... the REAL winning condition for Erfworld is the construction of a side that could run perpetually, and not need constant management to maintain. Even Faq, for all it tried, had to send out mercenary teams to bolster the treasury...

(reaching for straws here, but one thing ERF is an acronym for is Economic Research Forum)
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby Lamech » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:17 pm

There are all sorts of things to trade. Rations, shmuckers, rations and items (magical and not) all jump out as me as excellent things to trade. The rations/gems/shmuckers are probably more or less equivalent due to the all consuming upkeep.

However, items are probably where its at. Magical gear in particular strikes me the kind of thing that has steep dimishing returns when you stockpile type of it. If a hatamancer makes foolamancy defeating hats how many can you really use? But a few are awesome. And super armour on the chief warlord and casters prevents an lucky strike from deciding a battle, but once the key units are protected it rapidly declines in value. And some sorts of magic have hard limits on usefulness. After Sizemore has cheapened every city building, he can't do that anymore. But if Sizemore is suddenly helping with every city? A lot more money saved.

Point is trade agreements even without a special mechanical basis seem to me like a big potential area in Erfworld.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby bladestorm » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:32 pm

Some of these ideas about trade sound a lot like hiring out some of your flying knight-class elite units that have innate magical abilities to other Sides in exchange for Schuckers. Or hiring out mid level units that have no upkeep to bolster a small Side that is constantly being attacked by a larger Side. Or hiring out a filthy rich rock star dirtamancer to other sides to bolster their defenses.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby No one in particular » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:40 pm

Lamech wrote:And super armour on the chief warlord and casters prevents an lucky strike from deciding a battle, but once the key units are protected it rapidly declines in value.

Hey now! If Iron Man 3 has taught me anything, it's that you can NEVER have too many magic super armours on hand. One for every occasion! :D
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby Lilwik » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:31 pm

Lipkin wrote:I think as units level, their upkeep rises. So if they train up, but don't go out and conquest, eventually they will have a shortage of shmuckers, as they have no new income coming in.
That's surely true, but I strongly suspect that raising the level of your units is always a good deal. Word of the Titans 6012585 and the Level wiki page seem relevant here. They say that abilities go up linearly with level while the experience needed goes up exponentially. They say nothing about how upkeep goes up, but it wouldn't surprise me if it went up sublinearly. Even if upkeep were linear, I'm almost sure that a smaller force of highly elite units would be far more effective than a larger army that has the same total upkeep cost because all of its units are low-level.

Lipkin wrote:I think it unlikely the shmuckers produced by cities would be enough to support a standing army.
If we're still talking about Firstpost and Squashcourt, then we're only talking about half an army each, which is probably much more affordable than a full army. It might also be worth pointing out that reserve armies aren't really a practical option in Erfworld. I expect you could build up a big reserve of shmuckers and then use a Moneymancer to convert the shmuckers into units when you need to go to war, but then there's no way to put your army back into reserves without killing them. I wonder if Moneymancers can turn units into shmuckers; that would be rather horrific.
Last edited by Lilwik on Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby Lipkin » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:49 pm

I wonder if climate has an impact on units. Goodminton was a winter territory, and the Signamancy of the outfits reflected that. If a side wanted to attack a snowy hex, would they need to trade for winter gear to keep from freezing to death?
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby name lips » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:51 pm

I'm betting that Banhammer is somehow related to this crowd. We don't have any clue where he came from, and he has an internet-forum related name just like they do.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby Lamech » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:24 pm

Lipkin wrote:I wonder if climate has an impact on units. Goodminton was a winter territory, and the Signamancy of the outfits reflected that. If a side wanted to attack a snowy hex, would they need to trade for winter gear to keep from freezing to death?

One of the Inner Peace Jill updates has her talking to archons. They offer magical ponchos to keep off the rain, providing comfort and mitigating penalties for movement AND combat. So climate does have an affect. I would be surprised if non-magical equipment did not have some manner of weather mitigation. We don't know if there are other possible weather effects or not though.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 1

Postby Lilwik » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:31 pm

name lips wrote:I'm betting that Banhammer is somehow related to this crowd. We don't have any clue where he came from, and he has an internet-forum related name just like they do.
That's very interesting, and I believe it, especially considering Firstpost's peaceful ways. Perhaps that observation represents a huge spoiler about where this is all going. Banhammer is royal, and we can assume he's a member of Firstpost (or will be), but not the ruler of Firstpost. Since Crush is chief warlord he's also probably the heir. Given all that, I think I know how Crush will respond to this offer, and certain details of what will happen to Firstpost after that. I think those things are better left unspoken. I'm tempted to bet on them, but I doubt anyone would bet against them.
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