Lord Crush - Part 2

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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby ftl » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:50 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:I bet the link up could just cause any newly published book to automagically pop into his library. There is already a rule in place that cause the history of sides which have fallen to automagically pop.


I think that's not quite right. Histories of fallen sides get automatically Published, but that doesn't mean they pop in everyone's library; books only pop in a library when that library is built or expanded, and when that happens, you get a random sample of books, not necessarily the ones you want.

Is there a limit to the number of times a library can be expanded? Can you just endlessly expand your library and get new books? No idea. But presumably "expanding the library" takes space and schmuckers.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby 0beron » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:39 pm

Yeah, a book becoming Published doesn't mean it automatically pops everywhere. A Carny/Sign link would pretty easily alter that though and allow his Library to update every single time a new book is Published.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Lamech » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:23 pm

There are lots of ways Charlie could add books. They are signamancy, so a signamancer could probably call them up. Or possibly link up and make an item to do it. A look/carny/signamancer link or whatever.

Barring that he probably asks new sides to send him a list of their books and buys any they have he doesn't.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Oberon » Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:09 pm

ftl wrote:Histories of fallen sides get automatically Published, but that doesn't mean they pop in everyone's library; books only pop in a library when that library is built or expanded, and when that happens, you get a random sample of books, not necessarily the ones you want.

Is there a limit to the number of times a library can be expanded? Can you just endlessly expand your library and get new books? No idea. But presumably "expanding the library" takes space and schmuckers.
Hmmm, and just what kind of caster would it take to cause a library to act as though it is constantly being upgraded? And what kind of caster might it take to get the books you want, rather than some random sample?

I'll say it again, put anything, anything at all, no matter how outrageous or incredible out of Charlies' reach at your peril, he is capable of anything he wants to be capable of. And he hasn't even changed into his final form yet!
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Lilwik » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:54 am

Oberon wrote:Hmmm, and just what kind of caster would it take to cause a library to act as though it is constantly being upgraded? And what kind of caster might it take to get the books you want, rather than some random sample?
Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that those are powers of a Signamancer. So far everything we've seen of Signamancers still makes them seem underpowered compared to other disciplines. Along with Moneymancy, Signamancy is one of the few disciplines that seems to have absolutely no combat value and since Erfworld is so combat oriented I have to imagine that Signamancy has broad and powerful noncombat abilities in order to balance it with the other disciplines.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby MadZuri » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:19 am

Back to the side ending topic... Sorry, drunk and using phone, so not gonna link and quote. To be logically consistant with my previous posts and what I have interpreted fron the comics, a side needs both leadership AND a capital site to exist. Either one of those is removed and the side ends, everything goes barbarian. FAQ didn't have a second capital site, so as soon as it fell Jill went barbarian. Wanda's last city fell so she went barbarian. Possibly, Stanley was barbarian before he retook his capital.

It hasn't been stated what the cost is for moving a capital to another city (that is a capital site), I suspect it costs nothing. In many games I've played, each city produces a fixed amount of income (dependent on infrastructure) and has an upkeep based on distance from the capital. If capitals can only be declared on capital sites, it provides an economic incentive to have a "centered" capital. I suspect that the rules for this simply haven't been written yet, to allow for authorial flexibility. The cost may simply be the change in upkeep for the side.

Anyway, am I completely insane here? This would also explain the diminishing smuckers point in side growth. Food for thought, hopefully.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Oberon » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:43 am

Lilwik wrote:
Oberon wrote:Hmmm, and just what kind of caster would it take to cause a library to act as though it is constantly being upgraded? And what kind of caster might it take to get the books you want, rather than some random sample?
Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that those are powers of a Signamancer. So far everything we've seen of Signamancers still makes them seem underpowered compared to other disciplines. Along with Moneymancy, Signamancy is one of the few disciplines that seems to have absolutely no combat value and since Erfworld is so combat oriented I have to imagine that Signamancy has broad and powerful noncombat abilities in order to balance it with the other disciplines.
I was perhaps being a bit too subtle. It's carnymancy which allows the rules to be broken, and which would allow a library to act as though it was constantly upgraded even without spending the shmuckers to do so, and carnymancy could also get your library the books you wanted instead of some random batch which might not be as useful to you.

And Charlie, as a masterclass carymancer who is also a walking bimancer link (and who often hires MK casters for whatever special projects he has in mind) can break the rules all he wants.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby drachefly » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:26 am

Oberon wrote:And he hasn't even changed into his final form yet!



Eh, don't worry, it's a snake, and that never helps.


MadZuri, I doubt that jetstone upkeeps are so high that simply the going-off-center penalty would account for so much, let alone that it would somehow be an issue of paying this difference on turn.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby 0beron » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:01 am

Oberon wrote:Hmmm, and just what kind of caster would it take to cause a library to act as though it is constantly being upgraded? And what kind of caster might it take to get the books you want, rather than some random sample?
I'll say it again....[Charlie] is capable of anything he wants to be capable of.
I don't think that anyone with an ounce of creativity is trying to argue that Charlie couldn't own every book that is ever Published. We have already theorized that a Carny/Sign link could accomplish what you suggest easily. What's really up for debate is whether simply owning them really provides him with useful information, given the restraint of Time. So unless he doesn't obey Time (and the comic hints that he does obey it), then simply having the books isn't a particular advantage IMO.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:47 am

0beron wrote:
Oberon wrote:Hmmm, and just what kind of caster would it take to cause a library to act as though it is constantly being upgraded? And what kind of caster might it take to get the books you want, rather than some random sample?
I'll say it again....[Charlie] is capable of anything he wants to be capable of.
I don't think that anyone with an ounce of creativity is trying to argue that Charlie couldn't own every book that is ever Published. We have already theorized that a Carny/Sign link could accomplish what you suggest easily. What's really up for debate is whether simply owning them really provides him with useful information, given the restraint of Time. So unless he doesn't obey Time (and the comic hints that he does obey it), then simply having the books isn't a particular advantage IMO.


Agreed. Only with some degree of organization would that spell be really useful. Could the spell also create a Dewey decimal style Erf catalog of the library? I wonder if a really good Library would have one auto-magically? This could be particularly beneficial for Charlie who is a high level caster. Since it takes a long time for high level casters to level, even a small margin of xp gain is important. With a daughter who reached level 12 there's a decent chance Charlie has as well imo. A max level library would be a nice benefit on the way up to level 13 or even 14 for Charlie.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby 0beron » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:10 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:With a daughter who reached level 12 there's a decent chance Charlie has as well imo. A max level library would be a nice benefit on the way up to level 13 or even 14 for Charlie.
I'm not so sure. Remember that Olive was personally present for the capture of hundreds of cities, and the destruction of over a dozen sides. That's gotta be worth bucketloads of XP. Charlie on the other hand is a recluse and may have much less battle presence. So unless his "linking in to command the battle" imparts the same XP as being physically present, he's probably not so high level. More likely a 10.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Oberon » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Zeroberon wrote:What's really up for debate is whether simply owning them really provides [Charlie] with useful information, given the restraint of Time. So unless he doesn't obey Time (and the comic hints that he does obey it), then simply having the books isn't a particular advantage IMO.


0beron wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:With a daughter who reached level 12 there's a decent chance Charlie has as well imo. A max level library would be a nice benefit on the way up to level 13 or even 14 for Charlie.
I'm not so sure. Remember that Olive was personally present for the capture of hundreds of cities, and the destruction of over a dozen sides.
Looks like she was pretty busy, what with all that traveling around and conquering so many hundreds of cities. And yet she still somehow managed to find the time to read Banhammer's book and gain very particularly advantageous intelligence from it. And Charlie sits in his tower during that entire time, with easy access to his own library.

So much for the limitation of time...
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:59 pm

0beron wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:With a daughter who reached level 12 there's a decent chance Charlie has as well imo. A max level library would be a nice benefit on the way up to level 13 or even 14 for Charlie.
I'm not so sure. Remember that Olive was personally present for the capture of hundreds of cities, and the destruction of over a dozen sides. That's gotta be worth bucket loads of XP. Charlie on the other hand is a recluse and may have much less battle presence. So unless his "linking in to command the battle" imparts the same XP as being physically present, he's probably not so high level. More likely a 10.


I'm only claiming a decent chance he's that high level. And even if he is only a 10 the libraries XP bonus would still be useful which was the point I was getting at really. However, if the linking in doesn't count for XP purposes, then would he gain XP for any remote casting? Like the Deal of a Lifetime? If he doesn't get one then it follows that he doesn't get the other and visa versa. And if he doesn't get that then his XP gain options are pretty limited since, to the best of our knowledge, he never leaves Charlescomm's capital. His "Telecom" service can't be getting him much XP. Thinkagrams are pretty basic. Not the sort of thing a high level unit benefits from practicing. I'd be willing to bet he gains XP from his remote actions. But I doubt the comic will ever confirm it unless learn Charlie's level.

Its also worth noting that we have no idea how many of the sides Haffaton conquered that Olive was personally present for. Her XP might have been accumulated from most subtle maneuvers like what she did to Tommy. Assassinating a CWL solo is probably a nice XP bonus. Same for any of the other "icides" that Wanda accused her of. Racking up XP by focusing on sides high level commanders is probably a smart way to climb the ladder. Makes it much easier to conquer them as well. I wonder how many of those conquests really got their steam after the enemy side was forced to replace their level 7 or 8 CWL with a 5 or 6.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby 0beron » Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:50 am

Oberon wrote:Looks like [Olive] was pretty busy, what with all that traveling around and conquering so many hundreds of cities. And yet she still somehow managed to find the time to read Banhammer's book and gain very particularly advantageous intelligence from it. And Charlie sits in his tower during that entire time, with easy access to his own library.
So much for the limitation of time...
Sorry good sir but the devil is in the details. Olive had the good tactical sense to read a book authored by the Ruler of the side she had just ended - knowing she might need to manipulate him in the future - when she was in the capital of said side so the book was being handed to her on a silver platter. It's a clearly worthwhile investment of time, one which was staring her right in the face. It's hardly steady basis for arguing she had tons of free time.

Charlie on the other hand lacks those cues. With access to every single book, there would be no obvious "hey read me first" volume like there was in FAQ's library.

And finally, frankly I don't even really CARE about Olive. The subject of discussion is Charlie, and there was at least one occasion (IIRC 2 or more in fact) where Charlie was explicitly stated or implied to be busy. With the ability to hear every single request for his attention anywhere in Erfworld, and the need to juggle his various ventures in said locations, his schedule is a great deal more demanding than Olive's, with every single second accounted for and precious. Just because he never goes anywhere does not mean he's not doing anything, as we clearly see. Olive on the other hand could have had ample free time (comparatively speaking) while traveling between destinations because Movement takes time.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby wih » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:24 am

No reason Charlie couldn't have 50 or so Archons assigned, to or some kind of golem specifically crafted, to read books and report anything interesting to him. Hell, he might not even need it reported, he could just absorb the information by osmosis by some sort of thinkamantic power. That said while this would be the sort of thing he'd think of, I don't think it'd be something he'd actually do.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby 0beron » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:58 am

There's no reason he couldn't but there's a reason he wouldn't have Archons assigned. Those ladies are expensive, and he needs them everywhere else. Being librarians is beneath them in terms of potential.

The golem is a possibility, but perhaps that hovers on the edge of the sentience/Life issue Maxwell encountered. Maxwell failed to truly give those golems Life independent of himself, and I'm not sure Charlie would be a fan of "lending" part of his own Life to the unit like Maxwell had to. That however is purely speculation on my part, it's uncharted territory and we don't know all the details of how it affected Maxwell or how Charlie feels about such things.

With either unit type though, the issue of time is still a potential factor. We have no idea how many books are in existence, but we can assume it's an extremely vast number given the slim odds of various book types popping. And we have no idea how quickly Erflings can read, so we can' figure out a rate either. There's just too little info for me to be comfortable speculating on the subject really. Personally I'm inclined to believe that the number of units required to accomplish the task would make such a venture economically inefficient, but bottom line is we just don't know much to point either way.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Lamech » Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:22 pm

0beron wrote:There's no reason he couldn't but there's a reason he wouldn't have Archons assigned. Those ladies are expensive, and he needs them everywhere else. Being librarians is beneath them in terms of potential.
Yeah, and so are half the things he uses them for. Hell he already has them sitting around his base. His main currency is information. Surely he can spend a little training xp to get that.

With either unit type though, the issue of time is still a potential factor. We have no idea how many books are in existence, but we can assume it's an extremely vast number given the slim odds of various book types popping. And we have no idea how quickly Erflings can read, so we can' figure out a rate either. There's just too little info for me to be comfortable speculating on the subject really. Personally I'm inclined to believe that the number of units required to accomplish the task would make such a venture economically inefficient, but bottom line is we just don't know much to point either way.
New books are the important part of this equation. Most of the books just need to be cataloged not read. Unless Charlie wants information on Milquetoast he can just put that in his histories section.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby spriteless » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:03 am

Man, you guys are saying carnymancy does everything. Shifting which lot of books your signamancer draws for your library is clearly luckymancy. Even if carnymancy does do everything, luckymancers should be far better at that particular trick.

What rules can be changed, and how? I get that the carnies aren't gonna say. I respect that they don't want to share their weakness. I respect that Rob doesn't want to show what all is coming. But I think they have to be tricky, because they have limits, even if they aren't telling.

I can see Charlie wanting a big library bonus for his Archons' specials as well as his own leveling anyways.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby wih » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:17 am

Manipulating what books you get when you create or upgrade your Library does sound more like Luckamancy. Changing what the books already are doesn't sound like Luckamancy.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby 0beron » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:16 am

Lamech wrote:Hell he already has them sitting around his base.
They're not just "sitting around", they're in the Tower managing the plethora of Thinkagrams he gets. A necessary function, which other units could not do. So not really beneath them.

As for whether Carnymancy is really the appropriate school, I actually agree the Luck would be better for influencing which books a normal library pops. But rigging up a special library that contains all books is definitely something that breaks the rules, hence the domain of Carnies. I don't feel that Carnymancy can do everything, it can only mess with existing mechanics, and relies on links with other schools in order to mess with their mechanics. So for example JoJo rigged Incapacitation rules on Sylvia. Charlie+Vanna rigged Turn rules. But a Carny couldn't for example pop a unit. They can only manipulate things that are already in place, they can't create anew.
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