Secret of the arkanetools

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Secret of the arkanetools

Postby Roketter » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:57 pm

Most information on the arkanetools is currently unknown asides from their basic abilities. Still, users end up discovering new powers every so on, like the ability to turn orlies into nuts and the other way around.

Now PArson has a dollmancer, two attuned individuals, and unlimited thinkamancers. If dollmancers deal with enchanted items, he could link up wanda and ace or ace and Stanley just to get ace to reveal all stats and powers of the arkanetools. Chances are he could get nothing new... but on the other hand he could come out with new OP strategies.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby 0beron » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:31 pm

1) This belongs in "Everything Else Erfworld" so I have contacted a Mod to simply move it.

2) Very interesting theory. I especially feel it could apply to the 'Hammer because it's more complex. The 'Pliers are pretty straightforward in their purpose and use so nothing really suggests they might be hiding more. Stanley however isn't a caster, and isn't especially bright either, so he may not be using the 'Hammer to full potential because his mind isn't trained to handle/understand magic items like a Caster. Also, my pet theory of the 'Hammer actually being Carnymancy means it would have lots of hidden tricks that need to be revealed.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby Arky » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:33 am

It seems almost a given that the Arkenhammer will have another ability as-yet-unknown to Stanley (even the Arkenpliers may do so). The Hammer seems so underpowered by comparison to the Arkendish, even though taming Dwagons is clearly a pretty handy power. At least the Arkenpliers' one known power is a true game-breaker.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:04 am

Meh, it depends if shockamancy can produce batteries and power lines. Having infinite electricity would be hella game breaking then.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby wih » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:42 am

Arky wrote:It seems almost a given that the Arkenhammer will have another ability as-yet-unknown to Stanley (even the Arkenpliers may do so). The Hammer seems so underpowered by comparison to the Arkendish, even though taming Dwagons is clearly a pretty handy power. At least the Arkenpliers' one known power is a true game-breaker.


If Rocking Out is actually more powerful than Dance Fighting, then it's very powerful as there's yet another multiplier it adds to a large battle.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:28 pm

But it's not broken is what's being said. Infinite move + teleporting back home, infinite sized upkeep-free army, and infinite telecommunications + long range linking. Pretty broken. A few combat bonuses, less broken. Could probably replicate most of the hammer's effects with some good items. The hammer isn't going to allow you to conquer the world with a few combat bonuses.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby Kiarean » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:21 am

My theory on the nature of the Arkentools is that each is related to a particular Magic Class. In this case obviously the Pliers would be Spookism and the Dish would be Eyemancy. The Shoes I'd peg as Stuffamancy, as movement is something I could see all three disciplines effecting. The Hammer does seem to fit Stageamancy in this effect, Hat Magic would be what turns walnuts into Orlies, Rhyme-o-mancy would be what lets him Rock Out, and of course Carnymancy would be taming monsters. Under this theory, the reason why the Hammer isn't as powerful as the others would probably be because Stanley isn't a caster, and it's possible the Tools are increasing effective in the hands of casters in general and casters of class covered by that Tool.

There's a bit of a hiccup in this theory in Charlie's Dish seeming to be as powerful as Wanda's Pliers, but it's possible that - as a Master-Class Carnymancer - Charlie is capable of cheating this restriction and make himself a caster of another class on a temporary basis. However, Charlie long ago pulled a Parson and found a loophole in the rules. My guess (as an extension of this theory) is that this is the reason Charlie never leaves his Capital - He CAN'T. Normally he could only make himself an Adept in another Discipline, and even then would blow most of his juice doing so, making mostly useful on other casters and only when a true practictioner isn't available. Emergency healomancer to stabilize the condition of a key unit, for instance. The Arkendish however nullifies the Adept restriction, and from there he just needs a loophole in the rules of Erfworld that lets him transfer juice from his Personal Archons to himself, likely involving the Tower and perhaps also involving him being the Ruler of Charlescomm.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby Lilwik » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:40 am

Kiarean wrote:In this case obviously the Pliers would be Spookism and the Dish would be Eyemancy. The Shoes I'd peg as Stuffamancy, as movement is something I could see all three disciplines effecting. The Hammer does seem to fit Stageamancy in this effect, Hat Magic would be what turns walnuts into Orlies, Rhyme-o-mancy would be what lets him Rock Out, and of course Carnymancy would be taming monsters.
I'm puzzled by some of those choices. Naturally Stuffamancy sometimes moves stuff from place to place, and it creates golems that can move, but that hardly qualifies it as the class best associated with movement. I guess that the reason you didn't choose Spookism for the shoes is that you'd already given Spookism to the pliers, but why did that happen? When have we ever seen the pliers associated with anything but Croakamancy? Even when Ansom was using the pliers their magical ability was dusting the uncroaked. Here is how I would classify the tools:
  • Hammer: Stagemancy
  • Dish: Eyemancy
  • Shoes: Spookism
  • Pliers: Naughtymancy
It's tempting say that the hammer has some Shockmancy abilities, but if it has to be given just one class then Stagemancy probably fits best with the wide array of abilities that the hammer has. Unfortunately, the fact that the hammer seems to be both Shockmancy and Stagemancy seems to weaken the whole theory, and then there's the fact that the dish, the pliers, and the shoes have never demonstrated a wide enough array of abilities to even fill a single class. We've seen no Foolamancy from the dish yet, for example.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby Kiarean » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:33 am

Yeah, I had a brain fart on the Pliers and Croakamancy Class and such. As for the Shoes, my think was that it effects the ground, so maybe it could make it an ideal path with reduced move cost. Stack onto that Changeamancy increasing your Movement, and then Dittomancy doubling it on top of that and... well, I think you can see where I'm going with this. :>

As for the lack of wide range of ability with the Pliers, Wanda has stated that she has the talent but not the inclination to fully explore other Disciplines. She's learned a smattering of them for various purpose, but not developed the interest in them that SIzemore has. It's possible that she just hasn't discovered them yet, because she tends to not experiment with what she can do like Parson would. The Hammer and Shoes don't because their users aren't casters, so it only give them limited functionality. The Hammer's is admittedly the weak point in the theory, though I could try to explain it away as being related to Carnymancy, the same way I theorized it lets Charlie cheat himself into being considered a Thinkamancer. In this case Stanley's lack of intellegence limits him to subconsciously using Shockamancy due to his aggressive nature. The Dish - I might try and blame that on Charlie's exploits limiting him, perhaps he's able to think like a Thinkamancer or Lookamancer but not like a Foolamancer. Though would Tramennis' talk with Charlie be covered by Foolamancy, now that I think about it? I don't believe Thinkamancy has demonstrated an ability to change what you appear as.

On the subject of the Shoes and Spookism, I just don't see it. It only only indirectly affects movement, via devices or how/when a unit can travel.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby wih » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:20 am

Kiarean wrote:On the subject of the Shoes and Spookism, I just don't see it. It only only indirectly affects movement, via devices or how/when a unit can travel.


Shoes could be a special for infinite move, granting specials comes under Weirdomancy, which is Spookism.
Shoes could be somewhat of a vehicle, doing the move for you with infinite move, vehicles are Turnamancy, which is Spookism.
Shoes are clothing, clothing is Dollamancy, which is Spookism.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby cloudbreaker » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:25 am

Here is what Stanley had to say about the magic his hammer uses.

He really should teach himself to use the thing better. Wanda said she thought it was a whole mess of different magicks, what'd she say...Shockmancy, obviously. Rhyme-o-mancy because it rocked out. Carnymancy because it made big flashes and sometimes could make things disappear (he never could do it on purpose, though). And what else? Changemancy? He looked at the hammer closely. There might be a lot more he could do with it besides taming dwagons, which was...Date-o-mancy, he guessed?
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby 0beron » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:32 am

Yeah that's been brought up many times before, and the key phrase there is "she thought". Wanda's not a Titan so she can't know. Same goes for the 2 other more obvious tools...nobody in comic has ever said for sure the Tools are doing a specific mancy. Instead they say "the Dish gives Charlie unparalleled mastery of Thinkamancy" and "the theoretical consensus was that the Pliers allowed Wanda to extend Croakamancy to the Life element." It's all theorizing.
So Stanley's quote IS helpful for telling us Shock, Carny, and Rhyme can normally do those things listed, but it doesn't really confirm for us how the 'Hammer technically functions.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby Hasufin » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:47 pm

Something I've been considering...

The assumption seems to be that there's some sort of pattern in the powers of the arkentools - that they'll be equivalent, that they'll be aligned to a particular kind of magic, etc.

I'm suspecting they're not. Rather, I think each arkentool is completely unique and doesn't reflect anything about the other tools. I can think of two possible reasons for this, both of which entail humanizing the Titans.

See, Erfworld is, well, a game. It was made by known, albeit mysterious, agencies and was formed in toto rather than growing from a basic set of rules. The Titans, then, were game designers. ANd we know, too, that they were fallible - we saw that on page one.
What do fallible game designers do with their super awesome game?

They test it!
Consider the origin of gaming cheat codes. Those weren't originally thrown in for the players. They were there for the playtesters and debuggers. If the boss on level 7 was causing your avatar to fall through the floor and crash the game, you don't want to have to play through seven levels to see if your bugfix worked. So you add a cheat code to jump directly to that point and playtest there. Oh, and you might throw in a cheat code for weapons so you can actually fight the boss. And if you're testing something else, like what a particular area looks like, well, you add in a code to turn off clipping so you can go through walls, or...
Well, my point is, there's no particular rhyme or reason for cheat codes. They're created on an ad-hoc basis to address particular needs.
Right now we have the arkenhammer, which is a supremely powerful weapon that would be great for, oh, playtesting unti combat abilities. We've got the arkenshoes, which are great for exploring maps and also getting to problematic spots, not to mention teleporting back to your spawn point. The arkendish, which in-game gives you admin level access to some functions. And the arkenplies, with which you can resurrect a unit that's killed during testing. If there are other tools, then they could be completely random. Though I'd be surprised to not find anything to grant infinte health, infinite juice, or off-turn actions.

Another possibility is, if the tools aren't for debugging, they're for playing. Game designers are generally also gamers. Once they got done creating this super awesome game, they wanted to play it. They But since they didn't want to just be regular units, they made items to grant their avatars game-breaking abilities. Maybe one of the titans was big on the combat aspect and made a great melee weapon. Maybe someone else just wanted to run around the map and made an item for infinite move... etc. Under this theory, each tool will reflect the playing style of the titan that made it. Again, no particular rhyme or reason. Though if this is the case, I'm not as confident there will be something for infinite health or juice.

The unfortunate problem with both of these theories is, they don't really grant us any good prediction for further tools or tool abilities. We might take guesses, but it's just a "They made what they felt like making."
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby Lipkin » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:49 pm

I like the idea, especially since Parson has already brought up cheat codes once.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby drachefly » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:33 pm

Problem: We saw the titans on page 1 (or so). They were beyond huge. I'm not sure that the game would even make sense in the same way for being of that magnitude. Unless of course they could resize.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby spriteless » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:32 pm

Well, items can already resize on the fly.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby Lilwik » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:44 pm

spriteless wrote:Well, items can already resize on the fly.
That explains how the Titans could use arkentools, but the Titans were much taller than mountains, so their size still seems to rule out the Titans participating in Erfworld the way units do. No Titan could fit into a city, except perhaps in the sense that his foot might be able to sit within the city walls without completely crushing all the buildings. That doesn't rule out the possibility of some sort of avatar unit, or maybe even shrinking Titans, but it seems a bit of a stretch to go there without any hints about that in the story.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby Lamech » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:05 am

Shai_hulud wrote:But it's not broken is what's being said. Infinite move + teleporting back home, infinite sized upkeep-free army, and infinite telecommunications + long range linking. Pretty broken. A few combat bonuses, less broken. Could probably replicate most of the hammer's effects with some good items. The hammer isn't going to allow you to conquer the world with a few combat bonuses.
Conquering the world with the Arkenhammer a guide:
1) First off there are some requirements to this little ploy. You'll need to get them first.
a) Replaceable foolamancy defeating. Preferably with decent range. A caster that can make anti-foolamancy items. (Hatomancers are particularly useful because they also provide cheap comms which you'll need.). An source of archons. The details don't matter, you just need to be able to check for ambushes.
b) The ability to ride a dwagon yourself.
c) A decent sized mountain range, or ranges.
d) A source of commanders
2) Secondly we are assuming that dwagon harvesting produces a fairly reasonable amount of rations. Depending on how good the above resources are this number will vary. You shall end up feeding your armies with dwagons which will eliminate upkeep costs. I will argue that harvesting produces rather high amounts of rations. Parson thought he could feed a side and others with a merely double what their cities produced. This should harvest more units, and bigger units, with fewer units to support.
3) You start off how Stanley did. Scouts find dwagons, check to make sure there are no ambushes. Fly out and tame them.
4) Now you have more dwagons! Once you have a handful you can move some of your scouts and foolamancy detectors into a mountain range normally beyond reach! Then a couple dwagons can act as a relay. (Make sure to always scout the relay path before moving your hammer on it.)
5) Now you get more dwagons, meaning you can set up the new base even faster. Continuing to expand the area you can scout.
6) Depending on how fasts bases can be set up the scouts may need to start riding dwagons to do their scouting.
7) Exponentially growing fleets of dwagons, limited only by the number of mountains you can find. Probably numbering in the hundreds. The exact number will depend on dwagon production, their value in rations, and various upkeep costs.
8) Use this to bootstrap yourself into ultimate power. We've seen dwagons in action. They aren't the be all end all, especially when they can't being their full array of power to bear (namely their speed, and hit and run tactics). But you have stupidly large numbers. Steal casters, blackmail sides, set up farms, build up magic items. Whatever.
9) Win.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby Lipkin » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:32 am

If The Hammer has unlimited Shockamancy, that seems pretty dang useful. He took down a stack of high powered units with a single swing before being blinded by a zerg rush of Orlies. Imagine if he wasn't out an exposed like that, but instead in a superior defensive position like a tower. With proper screening, he could waste an army.
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Re: Secret of the arkanetools

Postby Shai_hulud » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:45 am

Or better yet, get TV's Moneymancer to help store the shockamancy in jars. Then they would have a power bank.

It actually hurt to type that.
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