Caster Juice and the wiki article.

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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:09 pm

Actually pretty sure Wanda makes the body move by connecting nerves and muscle. She doesn't actually just go "get up yous" and the body gets up.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Lilwik » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:21 pm

0beron wrote:Even MORE invented explanations where none is needed!
It's not an invented explanation and you're right that no explanation is needed. The point is that changing the turn might be something that Vanna made to happen like a screwdriver turning in a screw rather then like a general giving an order. To make that point no one needs to explain anything; they just need to suggest a possibility that fits that hole in our knowledge, because doing so demonstrates that there is a hole in our knowledge. We don't know enough about how Turnamancy works to start ruling out possibilities, and if someone wants to claim detailed knowledge of how Turnamancy works then that requires explanation.

0beron wrote:Either it is one's turn or it is not.
It would be nice to have an explanation for that. If we know that, then where does it come from?

0beron wrote:Nor has a spell had an effect yet also failed.
Wanda's mind control spell on Jillian in Book 1 had an effect and also failed. We haven't seen many failed spells, but I'd expect most failed spells to have some effect.

0beron wrote:Wanda uncroaks a body or she doesn't, she doesn't make a body start walking only to have it revert back to a corpse.
Croakamancy isn't like flipping a light switch; that was made very clear in Book 0, Episode 5 and others. Uncroaking is a process of repairing the broken bits and replacing the missing bits with magical motion. Surely if a Croakamancer were to run out of juice or be distracted in the middle of that process you would end up with a half-uncroaked body.

0beron wrote:Sizemore digs a tunnel or he doesn't, he doesn't start digging and then get buried when the dirt suddenly reappears.
I don't know how Turnamancy works, but I'd bet that digging a tunnel is not a good analogy for whatever Vanna did to change the turn.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:34 pm

By all means, provide an example of this magical Schrodinger's turn that you speak of, because all we ever see in the comic is people being on turn or off it. Do you seriously fail to grasp the ridiculousness of what you're proposing by demanding this is a thing?

Wanda's spell did not have an effect than then fizz. The spellcast was complete, the spell was placed, and Jillian was influenced by it as advertised. Eventually, she was faced with a choice more powerful than the spell, and the spell was broken, as evidenced by the backlash. Wanda didn't fail to cast it, Jillian just succeeded her saving throw later on, to put it in D&D terms.

Wanda also very cleanly tells us what happens if she fails to uncroak a body, when she suggests doing her mass-uncroak for Tommy. It's ruined, the spell fails, no uncroaked, that's all folks, thanks for coming, show's over.

I am now finally going to do what I really should have done ages ago, and what I must assume many others have done since a great majority besides me have stopped replying to you in general, and Foe you. May this bring an end to making my eyes and head hurt from reading your nonsense theories and desperate justifications for them.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Lipkin » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:58 pm

Other conceivable options.

Casters can cast continuously to achieve prolonged effects. Jojo cast over Sylvia every day for 10 turns. Maybe he was casting all day during those turns to keep her alive with one continuous spell. It could be possible to cast over multiple turns as long as you space your juice out.

It is also possible that she was casting from the reserves of the tower.

We don't know.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:20 am

Lilwik wrote:changing the turn might be something that Vanna made to happen like a screwdriver turning in a screw rather then like a general giving an order.

I propose that time in the setting works based on giant invisible orreries that interconnect every hex, side, unit, and sun. I base this solely on how epic it would be for a Master Turnamancer to kick the clockwork of the cosmos right in the ball bearings.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Werebiscuit » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:22 am

Lipkin wrote:Other conceivable options.

It is also possible that she was casting from the reserves of the tower.

We don't know.



Wondered when that would surface again *puts his fingers in his ears, screws up his eyes, hunches down and waits....*

Ps. not getting at you for suggesting it Lipkin...I saw it rear it's ugly head as a possibility again a page back in the discussion. Let's hope he's foe'd you and doesn't see it.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Lipkin » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:19 am

Well, we know the tower was an important aspect of the spell. If it wasn't Vanna would have been mounted, or at least so Slately claims.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:47 am

Werebiscuit wrote:
Lipkin wrote:It is also possible that she was casting from the reserves of the tower.
Wondered when that would surface again *puts his fingers in his ears, screws up his eyes, hunches down and waits....*
Ps. not getting at you for suggesting it Lipkin...I saw it rear it's ugly head as a possibility again a page back in the discussion. Let's hope he's foe'd you and doesn't see it.
Who are you talking about? Me? I love, Lipkin he's awesome, I'd never have him Foe'd. However I don't think Tower reservers are the answer here. It seems that there are 3 ways Towers get used.
  1. Providing a "bonus" to casters doing their own spells. We don't get an explanation of what precisely this bonus actually does mechanically, but it allows casters to succeed at spells they don't feel they could normally pull off alone (Wanda trying Findamancy to get the 'Shoes). To me this seems the most likely reason Vanna needed to stand on the Tower rather than remain mounted.
  2. Converts and stores Juice as Raw Shockamancy for use as air defense. The conversion to Shockamancy suggests to me that you can't then pull it back out as universal juice, once it's a Shock, its a Shock forever. For example, Clay was the one who charged Goodminton's Tower, and Delphi pulled the charges out. She was using the Tower for the blasts, and her own juice for the Predictions, not the Tower for both.
  3. Serves as an "anchor" for trap/defense spells that are discipline specific, like what FAQ's Court did to Efbaum's Tower in preparation against an attack by Charlie.
There just isn't anything in the comic that seems to suggest Towers are Juice batteries.
It's also possible that Vanna's need to dismount was more mechanical in nature, that perhaps being off-turn she needed to actually be within the city for the spell to take effect, or something like that. That's wild speculation, just another possibility since it was said early in the comic that casting off-turn has confusing restrictions.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Lipkin » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:50 am

Or maybe Vanna can turn raw shockamancy back into usable juice.

*asspull*
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:52 am

LAWL :lol:
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby drachefly » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:31 pm

0beron wrote:....logic, where did it go? Even MORE invented explanations where none is needed! Either it is one's turn or it is not. There's no wonky "I am simultaneously on and off turn at the same time!" state of being.


Ahem. I provided a possibility argument for a means by which this could be done. You are saying I made it up. In possibility arguments, you get to make stuff up - you're finding a path through what has not yet been ruled out.

I think the things I made up for this argument are not particularly farfetched, which helps.

0beron wrote:Nor has a spell had an effect yet also failed. Wanda uncroaks a body or she doesn't, she doesn't make a body start walking only to have it revert back to a corpse. Sizemore digs a tunnel or he doesn't, he doesn't start digging and then get buried when the dirt suddenly reappears. There is no halfway status that later fails and reverts. Either the spell works or it doesn't. Since when did erfworld turn into some bizarre twist of Schrodinger's cat?


Yes, because it appears that casters aren't wildly incompetent. Try to skimp on the juice a little and get no effect out? Bad deal, don't do it! Or maybe there's simply no option to stop. Maybe she's committed to burning that juice once she starts, in which case it's just the implementation layer of the 'forfeit your mana restoration for next turn' idea.

As for Schrodinger... heh. Funny that you should mention that, even though I didn't go anywhere freaking NEAR it in my suggestion. Why is it funny? Because QM shows how even the most discrete-looking events you can imagine, quantum shifts, are still gradual and occur bit by bit. Maybe that's why you said it, in which case it's less funny, but more baffling. Because this feature of QM is not optional. Anything vaguely like physics has to have it.

At a math-of-existence level, either Erfworld has discrete time steps or there's some transition period - something that is closer or further from that turn boundary, such that as you go across it something happens. Since many things happen at turn boundaries and especially since Turnamancers can modify those things independently, it seems like turn changes have moving parts.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:43 pm

drachefly wrote:As for Schrodinger... heh. Funny that you should mention that, even though I didn't go anywhere freaking NEAR it in my suggestion.
Really? Are you sure? Because what exactly would you call the phenomenon you and Lilwik were proposing? A situation where it is still GK's turn, except that it isn't? I don't give a rat's behind about our world's physics, because as Parson has discovered at every turn, Erfworld wipes its butt with them. I used the term Schrodinger as an analogy for this proposition that there was this intermediate/unknown/whatever state that was on a turn yet not at the same time. Trying to argue your case on atomic events and QM is of literally zero relevance, so why are you trying?
drachefly wrote:Since many things happen at turn boundaries and especially since Turnamancers can modify those things independently, it seems like turn changes have moving parts.
And then there is this. Says who/what? How can you know that? What happens at a turn boundary, and where is your evidence that any of these things are modified by a Turnamancer? Rations pop, move depletes, new move is restored, hits are healed, things are cleaned, and all of these are things a Turnamancer has never been said to effect.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:14 pm

Still not sure why casters can't just have a reserve.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Lipkin » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:23 pm

Not sure why anyone who has sealed a cat in a box would expect it to be alive after more than few minutes.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:24 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Still not sure why casters can't just have a reserve.
I mentioned it before, but since debates like this often turn into walls-o-text that can be hard to follow, I don't blame you for misisng it. But put simply, the comic suggests the opposite. Casters always burn up their spare juice before they get to next turn, and even when they know a big battle is coming a few turns in the future, they always invest it in projects rather than saving up, and plus everything else in Erfworld restores to full at the start of Turn, so why would Juice be the outlier?

So you're correct in feeling that nothing says they can't build up a reserve, but there's a lot that showing us they don't, which may translate to mean they can't even if they wanted to.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:09 pm

Fair nuff, 'cept Digdoug only makes the one scroll on a multi day trip. Seems a waste of juice. That is to say, he doesn't do anything that involved spending his juice on that trip.

Lipkin wrote:Not sure why anyone who has sealed a cat in a box would expect it to be alive after more than few minutes.
This explains the theory best I feel.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:16 pm

Preeeetty sure making a scroll takes juice haha. It doesn't take any juice to cast one, so not taking any to make one either would just be OP and silly.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:21 pm

Clarification; He made one scroll, on one say, but was on a three day trip. That still left several days without spending juice, unless you can charge a scroll over multiple turns.

Also old post:
0beron wrote:Wanda also very cleanly tells us what happens if she fails to uncroak a body, when she suggests doing her mass-uncroak for Tommy. It's ruined, the spell fails, no uncroaked, that's all folks, thanks for coming, show's over.

I really feel like I should have respond to this sooner. The mass uncroaking is different than the individual uncroaking. She says as much to Parson, and we never actually get to see a mass spell from the first person perspective. For all we know it works on a slightly different principle than the other. What she did to her brother was clearly a reference to the movie Frankenstein, but the mass spell produces walking skeletons like Army of Darkness. Might be a different style of Croakamancy, like how there are different styles of Thinkamancy. Not saying it was, just that it doesn't seem to work the same way it did with her brother. That or are you saying that the muscle and nerve repair would have been undone if she had cocked it up?
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:28 pm

Digdoug never wastes or stores juice in his trip. He says it's a 3 day 2 night trip. Day 1, he spends his juice upgrading the tower in weatherbug before he leaves. Day 2, he's stuck in the hippo and has no good way to use his juice so he makes a scroll. Day 3 he arrives at the capital and saves his juice for whatever the King needs.

If anything, the latest update supports the idea that juice replenishes completely at the start of each turn.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:29 pm

Well the first day he spent all his juice on Weatherbug's tower before flying off, day 2 he was in transit, and day 3 is presumably when he lands (since he says 2 nights), which means he was holding onto juice for whatever the king's orders were. So spending that middle day on the scroll means all his juice was accounted for during the journey.

As for Mass-Uncroak, let me clarify. When I said "for Tommy" I mean back when she was a level 2, and they had a whole bunch of corpses, plus a Warlord. She explained that she could spend her juice on the Warlord to make a fair leader, or attempt a risky mass-uncroak that would either give them weak troops or nothing, meaning that the spell would succeed or not, without there being a middle-ground (such as only half the troops being risen, or being risen only briefly). So based on that plus all the other spells we see, it seems like spells fall into 2 categories:
  • The Instant, which have a juice cost and either fail or succeed, taking their effect when the spell completes. This would include uncroaking, shocking, in fact, most of the spells we have ever seen.
  • The Sustained, which burn up juice over time as the caster keeps the effect growing. This would include things with variable duration like Thinkagrams.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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