Caster Juice and the wiki article.

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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Lilwik » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:18 pm

0beron wrote:What happens at a turn boundary, and where is your evidence that any of these things are modified by a Turnamancer? Rations pop, move depletes, new move is restored, hits are healed, things are cleaned, and all of these are things a Turnamancer has never been said to effect.
Also, production is advanced by one step on all units that are being produced, and we know that Turnamancers affect that as of Book 0, Episode 48. We don't know whether Turnamancers have power over those other aspects of changing turns, but since we know that Turnamancers can cause the turn to change it becomes a natural possibility to wonder about. Turnamancers could be like Dirtamancers, but instead of working in the mediums of dirt and cities, they manipulate turns.

A possibility that is especially striking for me is that changing the turn was like running down a checklist for Vanna. Each of the many things that happens when the turn changes might need to be forced to happen one-by-one. So for example, healing and juice restoring might be near the beginning of the list, while move depletion and restoration might be near the end. There could have been a situation where Vanna had her turn's new juice but still had most of her work ahead of her, because if she stopped at that point Jetstone would have all its units healed but still have no move, and Gobwin Knob's move wouldn't have been depleted. It seems like that would be a disaster for Jetstone because their healing would have been wasted when they couldn't use it; they would just take more injuries and then not get their healing when their turn naturally starts.

I hope someday we get to see the world from the perspective of a Turnamancer so that some of the answers can be revealed.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:29 pm

What the hell are you talking about?

You're pining for the answers to questions that are completely irrelevant.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:14 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:Digdoug never wastes or stores juice in his trip. He says it's a 3 day 2 night trip. Day 1, he spends his juice upgrading the tower in weatherbug before he leaves. Day 2, he's stuck in the hippo and has no good way to use his juice so he makes a scroll. Day 3 he arrives at the capital and saves his juice for whatever the King needs.

If anything, the latest update supports the idea that juice replenishes completely at the start of each turn.

0beron wrote:Well the first day he spent all his juice on Weatherbug's tower before flying off, day 2 he was in transit, and day 3 is presumably when he lands (since he says 2 nights), which means he was holding onto juice for whatever the king's orders were. So spending that middle day on the scroll means all his juice was accounted for during the journey.
Yeah, thanks. Both of you. I got my scheduling messed up. Idea withdrawn.


0beron wrote:As for Mass-Uncroak, let me clarify. When I said "for Tommy" I mean back when she was a level 2, and they had a whole bunch of corpses, plus a Warlord.
Yeah, I knew what you meant. What I was asking was this: If she wanted to go all Herr Doctor Wanda Frankenbough on a Warlord, but she was low on Juice, what would happen? Would she be unable to start at all, because it was a single "action" in game mechanic terms? Or would she upgrade/repair some of the damaged tissue, like he was some sort of Flesh Golem, and then have to start where she left off on the next turn? Same question for Golems too I guess. That is to say, what do you think the minimum size of an action is and related Juice cost? Are spells in non-Thinkamancy magics singular concrete events, or do other magics besides Thinkamancy have "Hidden Mechanics" too? And how small a chunk of one of these mechanics can you power before it doesn't meet the minimum requirements of a spell, and thus count as a performable action?
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Lilwik » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:43 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:If she wanted to go all Herr Doctor Wanda Frankenbough on a Warlord, but she was low on Juice, what would happen?
I think the closest the story has ever come to saying something about that issue was in Book 0, Episode 18: "If she flubbed the rhyme, the spell would weaken or fail completely. She had yet to try to put two lines together, but she was already casting. It was now or never."

Apparently she can't just casually stop casting and resume later. I'm going to guess that the issue is juice and if she stops casting she still loses some of the juice that she would have used, so if she had stopped then she wouldn't have been able to try again until her next turn, during which time Tommy would have decayed, but I don't know. It might mean that she was somehow incapable of stopping herself because it was an atomic action.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Lipkin » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:59 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Fair nuff, 'cept Digdoug only makes the one scroll on a multi day trip. Seems a waste of juice. That is to say, he doesn't do anything that involved spending his juice on that trip.

Lipkin wrote:Not sure why anyone who has sealed a cat in a box would expect it to be alive after more than few minutes.
This explains the theory best I feel.

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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:57 pm

In Peoples Glorious Democratic Republic of Gowbin Knob, Dwagon mounts you!
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:05 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:What I was asking was this: If she wanted to go all Herr Doctor Wanda Frankenbough on a Warlord, but she was low on Juice, what would happen? Would she be unable to start at all, because it was a single "action" in game mechanic terms? Or would she upgrade/repair some of the damaged tissue, like he was some sort of Flesh Golem, and then have to start where she left off on the next turn? Same question for Golems too I guess. That is to say, what do you think the minimum size of an action is and related Juice cost? Are spells in non-Thinkamancy magics singular concrete events, or do other magics besides Thinkamancy have "Hidden Mechanics" too? And how small a chunk of one of these mechanics can you power before it doesn't meet the minimum requirements of a spell, and thus count as a performable action?
Ah I see, fair question and one I'm not sure the comic has really properly answered, but I think with Croakamancy specifically, we can make some logical assumptions. Wanda treats the body like a system, that must be repaired in it's entirety in order to begin functioning again, she speaks of applying Motion anywhere that the body is lacking. So I believe we can infer that if she attempts to cast and doesn't have the Juice, the body would fail to function at all because the system is still broken. Whether or not she could continue later by picking up where she left off, I have no idea.

It's also possible (even likely, given the way casters talk about it) that they're aware of the Juice toll when they attempt to cast. Time "compresses" for them into a single instant. So I have a theory about what would happen in the situation you suggest, but it'd be easier to explain in an example:
  1. Wanda has a Warlord corpse that she wants to restore to half it's original levels and Leadership
  2. In actuality, she only has enough Juice remaining to restore it to 1/4 instead.
  3. She begins casting
  4. Realizing that the task she had planned is beyond her, she changes to make it a more sloppy job than planned
  5. She successfully casts a spell that uncroaks the Warlord with 1/4 levels and Leadership.
So that is to say, I don't believe Casters would ever attempt a spell that is impossible to complete, given how aware they are of the tax. Their expectations/goal would shift as soon as they begin to aim for something that is possible instead. If however they are able to ignore this logical change and push on with the attempt anyway, then I imagine the Juice would be spent and the spell would produce no result, hence why Wanda says "We may not get any units at all" out of her mass-uncroak, because it would "overwhelm her". She might even be risking Backlash by trying, even though she wouldn't have known at the time what that was.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby drachefly » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:49 pm

0beron wrote:
drachefly wrote:As for Schrodinger... heh. Funny that you should mention that, even though I didn't go anywhere freaking NEAR it in my suggestion.
Really? Are you sure? Because what exactly would you call the phenomenon you and Lilwik were proposing? A situation where it is still GK's turn, except that it isn't?


Hex boundaries are squishy to push over if you have move. This is known. Do you say that it's freaky and quantum schrodinger stuff? No. You just say it's a squishy barrier.

0beron wrote:Trying to argue your case on atomic events and QM is of literally zero relevance, so why are you trying?


I did not mean the math of real world physics (and I said I didn't mean that). I meant the math of causal or partially causal systems, of which Erfworld is one.

~~~

Ooh, I have another one! Maybe the part of the spell that makes it next turn uses one turn's juice, but halting the spell early at that point creates a backlash you really really want to avoid
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:23 pm

You have no basis on which to claim what Erfworld is and isn't, whatever system you're trying to propose, it's a concept from our world that Erfworld does not have to obey, making it irrelevant.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:03 pm

Except a lot of the jokes about things like G-strings seem like they are rooted in awful quantum mechanics jokes. Marbit computers and all that. Also remember that part of this discussion has become about things that would count as "hidden mechanics" like Maggie talked about. There was no reason up to that point to think Thinkamancy was anything other than a set of mind themed spells. But now we know it's got all sorts of fiddly bits that can be used to custom design your spells. Frequency, string connections, cosmic vibrations that follow rules about waves, nodes. It's actually really complicated.The question is does Turnamancy or Croakamancy have lots of fiddly bits too? And if so, how does that affect spell casting, juice expenditure, etc.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:14 pm

Trying to draw the parallels as proof though is an ineffective endevour. For example, arrows seem to fly in a manner that mimics standard ballistic physics from our world, yet after hearing the ranged special explained and seeing arrows halt in midair, it's obvious they're not actually obeying physics as our world would. So just because the puns about G-strings make sense to us doesn't mean that viewing Erfworld time/events the same way is logical. Because of that, we have to go with what we see demonstrated, and we've never seen units be on turn in some respects yet off turn in others, so treating a turn transition as anything other than a singular finite event is - in my opinion - a needlessly complicated mistake of logic. As Drache said earlier, what he's proposing is speculation and it falls into the realm of what hasn't been specifically disallowed, so I can't prove him wrong unless Vanna specifically tells us about it. But what we do see suggests he is likely wrong. It's just a question of what degree of proof one considers neccessary to dismiss a hypothesis.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby No one in particular » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:33 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Except a lot of the jokes about things like G-strings seem like they are rooted in awful quantum mechanics jokes. Marbit computers and all that. Also remember that part of this discussion has become about things that would count as "hidden mechanics" like Maggie talked about. There was no reason up to that point to think Thinkamancy was anything other than a set of mind themed spells. But now we know it's got all sorts of fiddly bits that can be used to custom design your spells. Frequency, string connections, cosmic vibrations that follow rules about waves, nodes. It's actually really complicated.The question is does Turnamancy or Croakamancy have lots of fiddly bits too? And if so, how does that affect spell casting, juice expenditure, etc.

Er, question? Where are you getting Marbit computers from? From the text (and a cursory google search) a Marbit is short for "Marshmallow Bit"

On a tangent:
Ooh! Hidden mechanics? Maybe there's a tribe of Machine Elves! (they work best with the Hippiemancers)
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:36 pm

The computer joke is right there on the linked page. How are you not seeing it? Stop trying to read comics at work. This will be easier after you become unemployed, man.

And I've been waiting for Terence Mckenna and other druggy icons like John C. Lilly and Timothy Leary to be referenced for a while now. Like, day one. Too much Lain I think.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby No one in particular » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:06 pm

Ah, gotcha. I was reading a bit too much into your post and thought you were saying that Marbits were referencing an actual computer brand, and when I looked at the comic I stopped when I got to the part I was looking for (the definition as Marshamallow Bit). Mea culpa.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Lilwik » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:31 pm

0beron wrote:So just because the puns about G-strings make sense to us doesn't mean that viewing Erfworld time/events the same way is logical.
I agree. Puns aren't evidence because it's too easy for a pun to just be there for fun. I still don't understand where the whole quantum mechanics thing came from.

0beron wrote:Because of that, we have to go with what we see demonstrated, and we've never seen units be on turn in some respects yet off turn in others, so treating a turn transition as anything other than a singular finite event is - in my opinion - a needlessly complicated mistake of logic.
Mistakes of logic aren't matters of opinion. If a mistake of logic is being made then we can point out the logical fallacy and solidly settle the issue. This allows everyone to clearly see the mistake and helps prevent it from happening in the future.

0beron wrote:As Drache said earlier, what he's proposing is speculation and it falls into the realm of what hasn't been specifically disallowed, so I can't prove him wrong unless Vanna specifically tells us about it. But what we do see suggests he is likely wrong. It's just a question of what degree of proof one considers necessary to dismiss a hypothesis.
We have seen so very little Turnamancy. We've never seen things from the perspective of a Turnamancer or heard a Turnamancer trying to explain her discipline. We've never even seen the Spookism area of the Magic Kingdom. I don't know where we're ever going to find any degree of proof to dismiss a Turnamancy hypothesis.

0beron wrote:Trying to draw the parallels as proof though is an ineffective endeavour.
That seems to rule out using other disciplines to draw conclusions about Turnamancy.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:33 pm

Yeah I was a bit confused as well, I assumed he was referring to some piece of equipment in Issac's playground haha.
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